Should the US begin taxing religious institutions?

[data_link]

Oh, you'd be surprised. I know some people who take the Word of the Democrats as Gospel.

Yes, but most people already regard such people as idiots. As I said, there's no reason to waste time attacking myths that don't exist. Creationism and the religious basis of all human morality, however, are far too commonly accepted, hence our aggressive criticism.

However, if Religious institutes are taxed, do you think that things such as private schools should then receive federal funding?

Why? I'm taxed, and I don't receive federal funding.

Actually, you do indirectly receive federal funding in the form of public schooling.

Darth Wong is out of school now. I thought you knew that.

[Darth Wong]

Why? I'm taxed, and I don't receive federal funding.

Actually, you do indirectly receive federal funding in the form of public schooling.

When I was in school, I had no direct control over the content of public schooling, so that hardly amounted to federal funding of my agenda. You cannot compare that to funding of religious schools.

[pecker]

Oh yeah, this poll isn't a thinly (and poorly) veiled attack on those whom you don't agree with.

"Thinly" and "poorly" veiled are two ways of saying the same thing. Of course, I don't think I veiled it at all.

You know, for all the 'brainwashing' you guys claim religion does, don't the Democratic and Republican parties do the same thing? Everh heard of straight party voting? Yet they don't get half the hell you gusy give Churches.

The Democrat and Republican parties are not responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths during the course of their respective existences. The churches are.

If you're talking about the Crusades, religion was just an excuse. The real reasons were for territory and economic purposes. Take away religion, adn the wars still woudl ahve happened. But instead of beign a crusade, it woulda just been a regular invasion.

And technically, Democracy was a driving force in many deaths (American Revolution and the American Civil War. To a MUCH lesser extent, World War II).

Kepp in mind, Democracy is an idea. Soem peopel believe it's 'right', some don't.

[pecker]

Why? I'm taxed, and I don't receive federal funding.

Actually, you do indirectly receive federal funding in the form of public schooling.

When I was in school, I had no direct control over the content of public schooling, so that hardly amounted to federal funding of my agenda. You cannot compare that to funding of religious schools.

Isn't that what the PTA and school board is for?

[Master of Ossus]

Oh, you'd be surprised. I know some people who take the Word of the Democrats as Gospel.

Where is that? West Palm Beach?

Seriously, people do have the freedom of choosing a political party. It isn't forced upon them from birth the way some religions are. Additionally, most of the time democratic and republican positions are philosophical questions limited to society, instead of to the individual like many religious beliefs. And if you decide you don't like your party, you can become an independent with no bad consequences (or even defect). It's not like that with religion. If you leave a religion, you KNOW that you will be ostracized by people who were once your friends. You might even believe that you are going to Hell/other, for taking such a radical path. That is not something that people are generally willing to do.

[Durandal]

If you're talking about the Crusades, religion was just an excuse. The real reasons were for territory and economic purposes. Take away religion, adn the wars still woudl ahve happened. But instead of beign a crusade, it woulda just been a regular invasion.

Red herring. Who cares about their motivations? Did they kill hundreds of millions of people or not? Yes, of course they did.

And technically, Democracy was a driving force in many deaths (American Revolution and the American Civil War. To a MUCH lesser extent, World War II).

Another red herring. Democracy isn't an institution entity. The Church is. Democracy can't kill anyone. The Church can, and has.

[Darth Wong]

The Democrat and Republican parties are not responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths during the course of their respective existences. The churches are.

If you're talking about the Crusades, religion was just an excuse. The real reasons were for territory and economic purposes. Take away religion, adn the wars still woudl ahve happened. But instead of beign a crusade, it woulda just been a regular invasion.

Oldest excuse in the book. Too bad it can't explain the ferocious fighting over the "Holy City" of Jerusalem, which has no strategic or resource value whatsoever.

And technically, Democracy was a driving force in many deaths (American Revolution and the American Civil War. To a MUCH lesser extent, World War II).

That's like saying that freedom causes death. There is a difference between people fighting to free themselves and people fighting to remove freedom from others.

Kepp in mind, Democracy is an idea. Soem peopel believe it's 'right', some don't.

The concept of democracy does not explicitly state that it's "perfectly just" to slaughter millions or torture dissidents for eternity. I wouldn't go comparing it to the Christian Biblical dogma if I were you.

[Mr Bean]

Yes and how many troops go into Battle say
Don't worry Men! Bush is on our side!

Or how many people in the Middle of Blazing Inferno pray for Deliverance by Tom Dashal(Acutal you got better odds with him then God as he's know to exist )

[Darth Wong]

When I was in school, I had no direct control over the content of public schooling, so that hardly amounted to federal funding of my agenda. You cannot compare that to funding of religious schools.

Isn't that what the PTA and school board is for?

Yes, and they are democratic, ie- elected, so they are obviously an extension of secular democratic government. They are not appointed by elites, the way religious school curricula are decided.

[EDIT: they should also nominally conform to constitutional principles, although we have seen repeatedly that this is not the case]

[Durandal]

Actually, you do indirectly receive federal funding in the form of public schooling.

When I was in school, I had no direct control over the content of public schooling, so that hardly amounted to federal funding of my agenda. You cannot compare that to funding of religious schools.

Isn't that what the PTA and school board is for?

School boards and boards of education are complete jokes, filled with people who don't know their asses from a hole in the wall when it comes to deciding curriculums. On school boards, education becomes a matter of politics rather than of objective learning and knowledge-seeking. See the Ohio State Board's decision to let individual districts decide whether or not to teach intelligent design theory, even after I and many others detailed for them in excruciating detail why intelligent design is blatantly unscientific.

[pecker]

If you're talking about the Crusades, religion was just an excuse. The real reasons were for territory and economic purposes. Take away religion, adn the wars still woudl ahve happened. But instead of beign a crusade, it woulda just been a regular invasion.

Red herring. Who cares about their motivations? Did they kill hundreds of millions of people or not? Yes, of course they did.

And technically, Democracy was a driving force in many deaths (American Revolution and the American Civil War. To a MUCH lesser extent, World War II).

Another red herring. Democracy isn't an institution entity. The Church is. Democracy can't kill anyone. The Church can, and has.

It's not really a Red Herring. You're just thinking a little one-dimensionally. Yes, the Church initiated the deaths of many people in the Crusades. However, equally to blame is human nature.

And unless I'm mistaken, most churches have regretted or apologized for the deaths caused by religion. Do you still hold the US Government responisble for slavery? Do you beleive in reparations? If you don't, you're applying a double standard.


And elt me put it this way. Chrsitianity is an ideology more than anything. The Church is the institution devoted to the ideology. Nations are institutions devoted to their ideologies. However, to condemn the ideology for the actions of the institution (That seemd like what was happening. If I misinterpereated, I'm sorry and I'll retract what I said) is ignoring the real problem.

[data_link]

Yes and how many troops go into Battle say
Don't worry Men! Bush is on our side!

ROTFLMAO!

[Darth Wong]

And unless I'm mistaken, most churches have regretted or apologized for the deaths caused by religion. Do you still hold the US Government responisble for slavery? Do you beleive in reparations? If you don't, you're applying a double standard.

We would still criticize the US government if it still claimed slavery was a good thing. Most churches still claim that Biblical atrocities such as the Flood and the ethnic cleansing of Canaan were committed by a "righteous" and "merciful" God.

And elt me put it this way. Chrsitianity is an ideology more than anything. The Church is the institution devoted to the ideology. Nations are institutions devoted to their ideologies. However, to condemn the ideology for the actions of the institution (That seemd like what was happening. If I misinterpereated, I'm sorry and I'll retract what I said) is ignoring the real problem.

Strawman. We have directly critiized the ideology in many ways, for many reasons. I have an entire website devoted to criticism of the ideology itself. Institutional church actions have always been supportable in Biblical teachings.

[pecker]

And unless I'm mistaken, most churches have regretted or apologized for the deaths caused by religion. Do you still hold the US Government responisble for slavery? Do you beleive in reparations? If you don't, you're applying a double standard.

We would still criticize the US government if it still claimed slavery was a good thing. Most churches still claim that Biblical atrocities such as the Flood and the ethnic cleansing of Canaan were committed by a "righteous" and "merciful" God.

Most churches I've been to don't take those as factual accounts. Maybe I'm just lucky.

And elt me put it this way. Chrsitianity is an ideology more than anything. The Church is the institution devoted to the ideology. Nations are institutions devoted to their ideologies. However, to condemn the ideology for the actions of the institution (That seemd like what was happening. If I misinterpereated, I'm sorry and I'll retract what I said) is ignoring the real problem.

Strawman. We have directly critiized the ideology in many ways, for many reasons. I have an entire website devoted to criticism of the ideology itself. Institutional church actions have always been supportable in Biblical teachings.[/quote]
Then I guess I just simply disagree with the way you see things. Nothing wrong with that.

[Durandal]

It's not really a Red Herring. You're just thinking a little one-dimensionally. Yes, the Church initiated the deaths of many people in the Crusades. However, equally to blame is human nature.

I had this discussion with THEHOOLIGANJEDI, and he lost. If you open it up, so will you. Either way, it's a red herring because we're not talking about the motivations of the parties. The Catholic Church is responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths, period.

And unless I'm mistaken, most churches have regretted or apologized for the deaths caused by religion. Do you still hold the US Government responisble for slavery? Do you beleive in reparations? If you don't, you're applying a double standard.

No amount of public apology can erase the fact that the Church is responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths, its silent consent of the slave trade, it's position of non-involvement in during the Holocaust, its current exacerbation of a public health epidemic in Africa, and its unrelenting profession of the same beliefs which caused all of these disasters in the first place. If the Church was sorry, it would look over its "holy scripture" with a more critical eye and throw out all the hate-mongering, racist shit that's in there.

And elt me put it this way. Chrsitianity is an ideology more than anything. The Church is the institution devoted to the ideology. Nations are institutions devoted to their ideologies. However, to condemn the ideology for the actions of the institution (That seemd like what was happening. If I misinterpereated, I'm sorry and I'll retract what I said) is ignoring the real problem.

Bullshit. By this bizarre logic, Nazism shouldn't be held accountable for the Holocaust.

Here's what it boils down to, pecker. I criticize the Church for still purporting beliefs and ideologies that led to countless millions of deaths and holding them up as "infallible."

[jegs2]

When I was in school, I had no direct control over the content of public schooling, so that hardly amounted to federal funding of my agenda. You cannot compare that to funding of religious schools.

Isn't that what the PTA and school board is for?

Yes, and they are democratic, ie- elected, so they are obviously an extension of secular democratic government. They are not appointed by elites, the way religious school curricula are decided.

[EDIT: they should also nominally conform to constitutional principles, although we have seen repeatedly that this is not the case]

...and perhaps religious schools should be taxed, but I cannot support taxation of churches, synagouges and other centers of worship, which all fit in the realm of charities (which are also not taxed). If we do that, then all "non-profit" charities should similarly be subject to taxation.

[Master of Ossus]

As a side note, lots of people blame the US government for its internment of Japanese Americans (including my family), during WWII, even though the US government has apologized for it. Just because churches apologize for the deaths of people doesn't absolve them of responsibility for such actions.

[pecker]

It's not really a Red Herring. You're just thinking a little one-dimensionally. Yes, the Church initiated the deaths of many people in the Crusades. However, equally to blame is human nature.

I had this discussion with THEHOOLIGANJEDI, and he lost. If you open it up, so will you. Either way, it's a red herring because we're not talking about the motivations of the parties. The Catholic Church is responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths, period.

And unless I'm mistaken, most churches have regretted or apologized for the deaths caused by religion. Do you still hold the US Government responisble for slavery? Do you beleive in reparations? If you don't, you're applying a double standard.

No amount of public apology can erase the fact that the Church is responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths, its silent consent of the slave trade, it's position of non-involvement in during the Holocaust, its current exacerbation of a public health epidemic in Africa, and its unrelenting profession of the same beliefs which caused all of these disasters in the first place. If the Church was sorry, it would look over its "holy scripture" with a more critical eye and throw out all the hate-mongering, racist shit that's in there.

And elt me put it this way. Chrsitianity is an ideology more than anything. The Church is the institution devoted to the ideology. Nations are institutions devoted to their ideologies. However, to condemn the ideology for the actions of the institution (That seemd like what was happening. If I misinterpereated, I'm sorry and I'll retract what I said) is ignoring the real problem.

Bullshit. By this bizarre logic, Nazism shouldn't be held accountable for the Holocaust.

Here's what it boils down to, pecker. I criticize the Church for still purporting beliefs and ideologies that led to countless millions of deaths and holding them up as "infallible."

I never said the Church wasn't responsible. Yes, I know that they are responsible for many deaths. But you know what? I decided a while ago that life was too short to focus on shit like this. Ok, you think the Church is a bad institution that needs to be destroyed. I see it an institution that has amde msitakes, but has also done a bit of good in the world. Now I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. You're free to beleive what you will.

Feel free to say concession accepted if you're so inclined

[Master of Ossus]

Life is too short to worry about Holocausts?

[Durandal]

Or having subjective beliefs forced upon you as if they were facts?

[pecker]

Life is too short to worry about Holocausts?

I didn't say worry. I said focus on. Two very different things. We can argue about the Holcoaust until we're blue in the face, but it won't change the past. We can argue about the CAUSES of the Holocaust and look out for them.

So we can either worry about the Crusades as of centuries ago, or just amek sure they don't happen again.

[jegs2]

I never said the Church wasn't responsible. Yes, I know that they are responsible for many deaths. But you know what? I decided a while ago that life was too short to focus on shit like this. Ok, you think the Church is a bad institution that needs to be destroyed. I see it an institution that has amde msitakes, but has also done a bit of good in the world. Now I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. You're free to beleive what you will.

Which church was responsible for those actions? Calvary Chapel certainly had no hand in them. If you speak of the Roman Catholic church, I've never been a member of that organization, nor do I intend to become one.

[pecker]

I never said the Church wasn't responsible. Yes, I know that they are responsible for many deaths. But you know what? I decided a while ago that life was too short to focus on shit like this. Ok, you think the Church is a bad institution that needs to be destroyed. I see it an institution that has amde msitakes, but has also done a bit of good in the world. Now I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. You're free to beleive what you will.

Which church was responsible for those actions? Calvary Chapel certainly had no hand in them. If you speak of the Roman Catholic church, I've never been a member of that organization, nor do I intend to become one.

Normally when one speaks of the Church, they mean the Roman Catholic.

[jegs2]

I never said the Church wasn't responsible. Yes, I know that they are responsible for many deaths. But you know what? I decided a while ago that life was too short to focus on shit like this. Ok, you think the Church is a bad institution that needs to be destroyed. I see it an institution that has amde msitakes, but has also done a bit of good in the world. Now I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. You're free to beleive what you will.

Which church was responsible for those actions? Calvary Chapel certainly had no hand in them. If you speak of the Roman Catholic church, I've never been a member of that organization, nor do I intend to become one.

Normally when one speaks of the Church, they mean the Roman Catholic.

Well, I and many others don't think of those fellows when we think of church. I could go into my own tirade against what I consider to be a fatally-flawed doctrine within the R.C. church, but this isn't the place for it.

Certainly don't want the actions of my church judged by the misdeeds of the R.C. church. That would be like saying that all Southerners still want slaves.

[Colonel Olrik]

Well, I and many others don't think of those fellows when we think of church. I could go into my own tirade against what I consider to be a fatally-flawed doctrine within the R.C. church, but this isn't the place for it.

Yeah, right. Even when your fundies have much more power and influence. When they are actually more numerous. When the Pope has recognized Science numerous times and preaches peace, while you have Falwell and worse preaching holy crusades against everyone slightly different.

You do not have the higher ground.