Someone on TFN has the ICS- extracts, no firepower- spoiler?

[Kartr_Kana]

What is the ITW? I love the pics sarge

[VT-16]

Inside The Worlds of [Insert episode-title here]

[Kartr_Kana]

Thanks. VT-16

[Gorefiend]

I also believe there´s a difference between classes with and without the 'Star' -prefix. That prefix seems to imply a much larger ship, i.e 'cruiser' vs. 'star cruiser'.

Well it seems that way by Saxton’s books, though it could really just be an additional name implying the thing travels among the stars , for all we know.

Plus there would be the problem that the Mon Cal Star Cruiser is smaller then a Star Destroyer, though cruisers are meant to be larger then destroyers, though as said above, that’s if we go by earth standards and compare ships from different producers.

[VT-16]

though it could really just be an additional name implying the thing travels among the stars , for all we know.

Space cruisers travel among the stars, too.

Plus there would be the problem that the Mon Cal Star Cruiser is smaller then a Star Destroyer, though cruisers are meant to be larger then destroyers, though as said above, that’s if we go by earth standards and compare ships from different producers

Yeah, different race/producer-standards seems to be the way to go with this.

[Gorefiend]

Space cruisers travel among the stars, too.

Who would have thought

I always took naming something star cruiser for the literal meaning “something that cruises among the stars” as in most other sci-fi, just like a star freighter “carries freight among the stars” , and star battle cruiser “cruise among the stars doing battle”. Oh well that aside, weren’t the Dreadnaught Class Heavy Cruiser and the Strike Class Medium Cruisers, called Star Frigates somewhere?

[VT-16]

That´s because judging from an Imperial point of view, they would be comparable in size to Star Frigates.

[Gorefiend]

That´s because judging from an Imperial point of view, they would be comparable in size to Star Frigates.

No I meant isn’t their a printed source somewhere calling them that?

[Jim Raynor]

2. HIMSS Executor operated independently with small destroyer or destroyer-size vessels which are quite nimble both in hyperspace and in sublight. A dreadnought would be expected to lack interoperability with destroyers and to fight as part of a battle line (or more correctly a 3-dimensional equivalent, in this case). Battlecruisers were precisely not supposed to be contained in battle formations, as this removed their strengths (speed) and stressed their relative weaknesses (firepower and protection).

The Eclipse was also seen operating with a mere handful of Allegiance type Star Destroyers. Does that make it a mere battlecruiser too? I don't think we've ever seen a battle line of Star Dreadnaught sized ships, because in the SW universe, these ships are quite few in number, and you almost never see more than one in the same place. However, couldn't we treat the Executor as a line in and of itself? It's really, really ridiculously big in comparison to Star Destroyers, far more than the size disparity between a real life destroyer and battleship. Isn't the Executor the equivalent of a hundred ISDs or something? In their exxagerated descriptions, WEG claimed that ISDs were so big and powerful that a single ISD was regarded as a line. I think this could be done to the Executor and other similar sized ships.

3. The Executor-class faired quite poorly in open fleet combat in the EU on several occassions. While this requires rationalization regardless, it is somewhat easier to swollow if the vessel is a battlecruiser not designed or intended for direct fleet comba with poor protection and firepower for its sizet.

EU battles are often quite ridiculous. I haven't read Solo Command and other books with Executor-class ships in them, but I've heard that they were beaten down by torpedo-shooting freightors, and that the Mon Remonda actually stood up to one. Is this true? If so, that's BS that contradicts ROTJ, where the Executor withstood concentrated fire from the entire Rebel fleet (which stretched further than the eye could see according to the novelization), and only lost bridge deflectors momentarily.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Eclipse was also seen operating with a mere handful of Allegiance type Star Destroyers. Does that make it a mere battlecruiser too?

Yes but the Executor was racing with a group of agile ships to close on a world before an evacuation could be accomplished. The Eclipse got to take its time to get to a stationary military headquarters. Time was not of the essence with the latter example.

However, couldn't we treat the Executor as a line in and of itself? It's really, really ridiculously big in comparison to Star Destroyers, far more than the size disparity between a real life destroyer and battleship.

Size disparity is rather different than role, and much different between logarithmically scaled space warships.

If the Executor is a battleship, then it ought to fight on a line or in groups, period. That is what battleships do.

Isn't the Executor the equivalent of a hundred ISDs or something? In their exxagerated descriptions, WEG claimed that ISDs were so big and powerful that a single ISD was regarded as a line. I think this could be done to the Executor and other similar sized ships.

The WEG scale, apart from grossly misusing terminology, has been superceded by the ITW/ICS scaling and if anything, is scaled to local standards. We're discussing the Executor and ISD under the context of them being battleships or battlecruisers and destroyers, respectively. WEG looked at the ISD as somesort of superlative warship.

EU battles are often quite ridiculous. I haven't read Solo Command and other books with Executor-class ships in them, but I've heard that they were beaten down by torpedo-shooting freightors, and that the Mon Remonda actually stood up to one. Is this true? If so, that's BS that contradicts ROTJ, where the Executor withstood concentrated fire from the entire Rebel fleet (which stretched further than the eye could see according to the novelization), and only lost bridge deflectors momentarily.

We still have to rationalize. The incident cannot simply vanish.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

WEG claimed that ISDs were so big and powerful that a single ISD was regarded as a line. I think this could be done to the Executor and other similar sized ships.

While unsupported by the movie itself, to be very fair, the concept of the ISD as equivalent to a Line is not a bad one, though it won't be because it is particularly big in the grand scheme of things.

Remember that the ordinary lines they refer to are made of dinky little ships.

Also remember they have a Division of troops (High Colonel there) and a Wing of Starfighters (a Wing Commander/Lieutenant Colonel, maybe a Colonel or even a junior General here). To maintain superiority over these two branches, the billet of SD Captain should be somewhat higher than Ship Commander. One cannot always count on a superior admiral.

[Gorefiend]

EU battles are often quite ridiculous. I haven't read Solo Command and other books with Executor-class ships in them, but I've heard that they were beaten down by torpedo-shooting freightors, and that the Mon Remonda actually stood up to one. Is this true? If so, that's BS that contradicts ROTJ, where the Executor withstood concentrated fire from the entire Rebel fleet (which stretched further than the eye could see according to the novelization), and only lost bridge deflectors momentarily.

It was a bit more complex than that. As for the ROTS novel you should not forgot that their was a major space battle going along in general and not the entire Rebel fleet would be of engaging just one ship.

The Lusi in Bacta Wars had lost it’s fighter support, was getting shoot at by a fleet of freighters armed with cap-ship torpedos. The freighters were also hiding among general commercial traffic and using the fighters as sensor, so the Lusi had trouble targeting the armed freighters among the freighters it was allied with, whilst also having to engage other capital ships and fighters. Add to that the Admiral (or Captain, I really can’t remember) in charge went nuts and his crew shoot him, then handed the ship offer.

As for the Iron Fist engagement with the Mon Remonda, the Mon Cal Cruiser was sitting under it, thus not giving them the best field of fire, whilst another fleet was blasting away at the already damaged Iron Fist (it had a run in with several imperial vessels during a raid on Kuat before). The Fist also had to protect a half completed SSD (that they had stolen from Kuat), then when the other SSD went up, the warlord commanding the Iron Fist called for a retreat, because there was no point getting his flagship heavily damaged, as it was the only thing that prevented the Imperial Remnant and the Republic from just crushing him.

Since you mentioned Dark Empire, they Reborn Emperor’s flagship did even worse then other “Star Dreadnaughts” in the EU, getting blown apart by the Emperor himself and the second model by a droid.

While unsupported by the movie itself, to be very fair, the concept of the ISD as equivalent to a Line is not a bad one, though it won't be because it is particularly big in the grand scheme of things.

We don’t even see any smaller imperial vessels in the movie, for that fact.

Remember that the ordinary lines they refer to are made of dinky little ships.

Exactly, they can perform the same things a group (or line) of smaller imperial ships would have been able to do. The Empire might be big, but so is the Galaxy, it can’t use ISDs for everything out there.

The Star Dreadnaughts on the other hand were properly far to few in number to get assigned to standard fleets and got stuck with the personal fleets of grand moffs, or similarly high ranking imperial officials/officers.

[VT-16]

We don’t even see any smaller imperial vessels in the movie, for that fact

The Nebulon-B Star Frigates used by the Rebels are stolen from the Empire. And Corellian Corvettes are also found in Imperial fleets.

[Gorefiend]

The Nebulon-B Star Frigates used by the Rebels are stolen from the Empire. And Corellian Corvettes are also found in Imperial fleets.

Ok... getting used by the Empire in the movies.

[VT-16]

Well, there´s a possibility that some of the smaller support ships seen in ROTJ, belonged to the Imperial fleet. It´s impossible to tell if they´re there in the long-distance shots, since the Executor and the destroyers take up most of the shot. In some shots with Endor in the background, there appear to be some small ships close to the star destroyers, but it´s difficult to tell if they´re firing on them or not.

[Gorefiend]

Aye, but then there are also some Nebulon Frigates flying backwards in the movie, so who knows.

Some of the ships might really be smaller Imperial vessels that they brought along, it would after all not make to much sense for the whole imperial fleet to just be made out of Star Destroyer series ships, but then the Rebels brought along freighters to the battle (no, not just the Falcon).

[VT-16]

Aye, but then there are also some Nebulon Frigates flying backwards in the movie, so who knows.

They only flew like that to get away from the shield, if I recall correctly.

Some of the ships might really be smaller Imperial vessels that they brought along, it would after all not make to much sense for the whole imperial fleet to just be made out of Star Destroyer series ships, but then the Rebels brought along freighters to the battle (no, not just the Falcon).

Yeah, and alot of those freighters survived as well, which wouldn´t make sense if they were just fireships (rigged with explosives and sent ramming into Imperials, like in the novelization). Someone speculated they might have been like RL Armed Merchant Cruisers, transports converted to warships (more guns, stronger shields etc.)

[Gorefiend]

Yeah, and alot of those freighters survived as well, which wouldn´t make sense if they were just fireships (rigged with explosives and sent ramming into Imperials, like in the novelization). Someone speculated they might have been like RL Armed Merchant Cruisers, transports converted to warships (more guns, stronger shields etc.)

Like the Wild Karrde, or the “attack frigates” the Rebels used during the Battle of Coruscant. Arming large freighters seems to very popular in Star Wars anyway, in the WEG RGP books the Empire, and some of its minion governments, often used armed freighters as pirate traps, or patrol ships.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well I think the energy requirements of drastically more powerful propulsion would cause an increase in size (esp. since acceleration apparently demands more energy more consistently than any weaponry I believe). And larger engine nozzles also help with acceleration, I'm quite sure.

Yes, thats why I mentioned reactor size and fuel supplies. Particularily fuel sincee it makes up the vast majority of the ship's mass. (And the faster a ship goes generally the more power its going to require.

As for weapons vs acceleration: There's not a substantial difference between acceleration and weapons output (at least with the heavy guns) for the most part.

Yes.

Wasn't Marvel, it was the Archie Goodwin comics. And while you're technically correct in that it is referred to as a battlecruiser, its worth noting that consistently throughout the comics that the Executor is also referred to as a "dreadnaught" and a 'cruiser", and that it was the "largest and most powerful" vessel in the Empire (since the Death Star, IIRC.)

On top of that, there are examples of "escort frigates" and "Corellian Corvettes" also being referred to as "battlecruisers" I might add. So arguing definition by name alone doesn't really prove much.

I'm not quibbling over terminology. Suffice that battleships should fight in groups, a battlecruiser ought to be deployed independently or in concert with agile smaller vessels. This is more consistent with the evidence. Executors are never seen fighting in groups.

There is no evidence that Executors operate as scouting vessels or commerce raiders either (roles also attributed to battlecruisers, IIRC.)

There is, though, evidence to support the "battleship/dreadnought" definition (aside from the Goodwin comics.) Recall in TESB that Vader's squadron apparently also included a score of "battleships" distinct from the other vessels in his fleet (such as Needa's avenger. Needa was also present in hologram form but not part of the "twenty comanders" mentioned.)

I'm also a bit curious on your definition with battlecruisers. Where do you get this "operating in concert with agile smaller vessels" from?

It doesn't really matter aside from the fact that the ISD is clearly a nimble vessel, although Saxton has reclassed ships in that size range to generally be destroyers.

You mean the Venator? That's about the only example there is, and given its dedicated carrier function, its "destroyer" role is debatable. In any case, even if it *is* a destroyer, how does htis translate over into the Imperial era?

What matters is an ISD is agile and a dreadnought ought to lack interoperability with it.

Why? AFAIK the "slow moving dreadnought/battleship" idea is generally tied to the neccessity for a batlteship to be heavily armored against its own firepower - all that extra mass invariably means it will be slower. Moreover, its worth noting that according to the Wikipedia on battlecruisers:

'"Improved engine technology also worked against the battlecruiser formula. The ultimate limit on ship speed was drag from the water displaced (which increases as a cube of speed) rather than weight, so heavier armor slowed World War II battleships by only a couple of knots (4 km/h) over their more lightly armored brethren.

Weight/armor/protection turned out to be less of a hinderance as believed. (This is especially true in Star Wars, as shields exist in addition to armor.)

Oh yeah, ,and while we're on Wikipedia, that same source also points out that a battlecruiser by definition carries a uniform primary armament - which an Executor does not. Rather, what you are trying to suggest is more of an "armored cruiser."

Anyhow, without a reference for comparison, how can we say that the observed Goodwin comic reference is exception for its class? That would imply similar vessels being shown to not be able to take such punishment.

You mean aside form the fact it was the "largest and most powerful vessel" the Empire had yet produced? That in order to breach its shields the Rebels would have had to sacrifice an entire fleet? That they needed a technobabble shield-piercing "power gem" in order to overcome it?

Yes but if the Executor stresses speed over engagement and more importantly, her crews are trained accordingly, it may be SOP to avoid entanglement in fleet engagements (particularly when real battleships might show up) if it is a battlecruiser. It makes the squeeze a bit easier.

"IF" being the operative word. I might point out that with the existencee of hyperdrive, its not going to be any more difficult for a battleship to get away than it is for say, a freighter. (arguably, the durability of the former makes it even MORE likely.) As a minor note, the "speed is protection" idea turned out to be less than effective against battleship guns.

As for making the Executor's loss palatable, it can just as easily be rationalized by the existence of ram-ships loaded with explosives colliding with it. Easier actually, since the Executor being a battlecruiser does absolutely nothing to address the issue of the shield's strength. For that matter, do you even its not just its durability that is a problem? Its massive firepower is ALSO problematic, because it would have been sufficient to allow the Executor to wipe out the Rebel fleet singlehandedly in a matter of minutes. So even if the Executor DID have weaker defenses than a "battleship" ought to, we're still left with the massive firepower disparity. Hell, given that, the Executor being a carrier would make the loss easier to explain.

The incidents cannot simply dissappear, though.

Sure it can. Its not the first time "canon over official" has been used, even within the established hierarchy. Does that mean its the only 'answer'? No. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done, either.

That hangar could just as easily dismiss it as a dreadnought or a battleship by that reasoning.

Against it being a dedicated battleship/dreadnought? Sure it does. That just means its a hybrid design (which we have ample evidence of, and which tends to be my particular argument.)

But it is, so we accept that carrier abilities are not considered definitive in warship classification for SW vessels.

Not quite true, since there are obviously "hangerless" versions of vessels with decided advantages over those with hangars (IE being better protected, better dedicated to combat, probably carrying more guns with ventral as well as dorsal fire arcs, etc.) For that matter, the existence of dedicated carriers would also point to the inclusion of fighters as "definitive" trait (much like armament, actually.)

Moreover, this was arguing for a dreadnought v. battlecruiser classification. Why, if I had to choose between the two, I would prefer battlecruiser.

Its an arbitrary distinction without support no matter how you argue it, though.

Whether the Executor is significantly faster than comparable-size vessels and (to a less important degree) less shielded and less heavily armed than comparable-size vessels would really determine battlecruiser v. battleship.

[/quote]

Define "significantly." Also define the mode of "travel", since that matters. Not that it really matters though, for the reasons I outline above.

Personally, I consider the fact it operates independently and with smaller vessels as opposed to fighting in groups that is the worst bit for the battleship idea.

Only if you ignore TESB, the goodwin comics, etc.. In reality, the only real thing that kills the "Executor as a battleship" idea is the hangar (which also kills the battlecruiser idea.)