Would the Empire have won without The Emperor?

[Stravo]

Say that in between ANH and ESB Palpatine dies from a freak unforeseeable accident. Vader is elevated to the post of Emperor and the rebellion proceeds as it always has.

Would the rebellion still have won in this instance? Would the Empire still have fallen into in fighting without Palpatine? Without Palpatine's obsession with turning Luke and his half assed trap on Endor would the rebels still be able to turn the tide?

Option B:

Vader and Palpy go down in a freak accident. Now there are no Sith controlling the Empire and no other Force users come forth to help them out so its just the Empire vs. The Rebellion (The Rebels still have Luke)



My feelings on A is that the Empire would win because even though they have Vader and he would still be obsessed with Luke because there is no compelling interest for him to turn (No one is frying up his son) so either Luke turns - rather likely IMHO because of his love for his father and perhaps he would try to turn his father by working within the dark side ala Dark Empire and be lost - or he gets skewered by the dark lord.

B is the option where I think the Empire would truly shine. They would simply handle the rebels in a strictly military fashion and a half trained padawan - Later half trained Jedi Knight is simply not enough to turn the tide. The rebels would go down hard under this option. There is no central target to take down and by extension plunge the Empire into chaos.

Of course there is always the school of thought that without Palpatine there could be no empire at all but I just don't believe that.

[Alexus]

You are right, just because when the Emperor died the Empire fragmanted and really fucked up and was all but annihillated in 7 years does not mean the Empire needs the Emperor.

[UCBooties]

My main contention with your points is that the power vacume created after Palpy's death is demonstrably hard to fill. The EU has demonstrated that what hurt the Empire far more than the loss of Palpatine and Vader was the backstabbing attempts to take his place. Palpatine's chain of command contained many competant military personal (with several notable and very dead exceptions) but the governmental chain of command was filled with power hungry sychophants who Palpy could pit against each other. With out the big dog to sit on top of the pile, the rest of the Imperial elite goes totaly berserk in an atempt to fill the big chair. This is why I think that, in scenario B, the RA would still have a decent chance of pulling off a victory.

For scenario A, I think you are mostly right. Vader can hod the military together and would most likely kill or turn Luke, most likely destroying or severly damaging the Rebellion. The problem we see here is the aftermath. Palpatine built an authoritarian system based on cunning and subtlety. Outright terror had a very important role, but just as important was the delicate balance of pocket dictators to "keep the local systems in line." I think that there is a good chance that Vader is simply too much of a blunt instrument to keep the GE together over a protracted period of time.

So, simple votes are:

A. GE gets the win thanks to ruthlessness and authority of the Dark Lord Vader.

B. GE falls prey to major infighting giving the Rebellion ample oppurtunities to destabalize both government and military infrastructure. Toss up slightly in favor of the RA.

[UCBooties]

You are right, just because when the Emperor died the Empire fragmanted and really fucked up and was all but annihillated in 7 years does not mean the Empire needs the Emperor.

The difference between your response and a worthwhile response is that yours relies wholly on the eye roll stye of debate, wherin you simply make unproductive sarcastic remarks. Next time why don't you give your reasons for making such a statement instead of just throwing out a response.

[Stravo]

You are right, just because when the Emperor died the Empire fragmanted and really fucked up and was all but annihillated in 7 years does not mean the Empire needs the Emperor.

The difference between your response and a worthwhile response is that yours relies wholly on the eye roll stye of debate, wherin you simply make unproductive sarcastic remarks. Next time why don't you give your reasons for making such a statement instead of just throwing out a response.

Frankly UC his response wasn't even worthy of one on your part and mine. I like to leave those kind of half assed non particpatory responses dangling out there without acknowledgement thus giving the same amount of thought the jackass gave to his 'post'.

[UCBooties]

eh, fair enough, I'll stay on topic.

To add a question if I may, are we assuming that this version of the Emperor is staying dead or are we going the DE rout of clone to clone to baby, body leaping ad naseum?

[Lord Pounder]

Option A: It depends on a number of circumstances. Luke may have a weak spot for daddy but Daddy has one too for Luke. Another question is how well can Vader control the Moffs and Admirals of the fleet. My guess would be that some of the Empire breaks away, guys like Zsinji, and the war becomes a 3-way.

Option B: total galatic civil war with each petty Moff and Admiral trying to take the whole pie. In the midst of this the Rebel Fleet is completley destroyed. With no major political capital scored from the Battle of Endor too many systems would be reluctant to join the Rebels.

[Alexus]

Sorry for the sarcasm.

[Stravo]

eh, fair enough, I'll stay on topic.

To add a question if I may, are we assuming that this version of the Emperor is staying dead or are we going the DE rout of clone to clone to baby, body leaping ad naseum?

God, if you knew about my viurlent hatred of the DE storyline you would know my answer to that question. Palpy is dead. Never coming back, not even as some Sith ghost.

I never really accepted that a Galactic Empire like this one could fold so damned quickly. It was like GL said to himself...hmmmm...made the bad guys WAY to big and powerful. Not much of a happily ever after here. Guess they're just all stupid and wither away in the span of 7 years. Sort of a cop out ending for me if you accept the power and militarization involved in this empire. 25,000 stardestroyers just vanish in less than 10 years of fighting?

[Crazedwraith]

Would this mysterious accident be say Vader and Palpy dissappearing through a strange spatial anomoly to the Milky way?

[Alexus]

In all seriousness, I think there is a 50/50 chance the Empire would last without a Sith. If the person who takes control after Palpatine dies is quick to respond to any threats from warlords with force, the other warlords might give up. Then the Rebels would be destroyed in short order.

With Darth Vader at it's head I think the Empire would be pretty much the same.

Sorry for all the stupid posts recently peoples, I'll endeavour to be less trollish.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There is no Galactic Empire without the Galactic Emperor.

Palpatine designed the Empire to self-destruct without him. If Palpatine dies, for whatever reason, the Empire will probably disintegrate. The only individual who may have been able to hold the Empire together upon a final death of Palpatine would be Lord Vader, but even that is doubtful.

Palpatine's power in the Dark Side itself formed a cohesive force for the entirity of the Imperial military complex. The Empire's governors and admirals squabbled amongst each other even before the fall of Palpatine. I suggest that one read "All The Emperor's Men" and "Leviathan" to understand this better.

[Glocksman]

I never really accepted that a Galactic Empire like this one could fold so damned quickly. It was like GL said to himself...hmmmm...made the bad guys WAY to big and powerful. Not much of a happily ever after here. Guess they're just all stupid and wither away in the span of 7 years. Sort of a cop out ending for me if you accept the power and militarization involved in this empire. 25,000 stardestroyers just vanish in less than 10 years of fighting?

Granted, the scales and circumstances were different, but look at just how quickly the USSR and its empire fell apart after the death of Brezhnev.
Or look at the constant infighting and backstabbing that took place in Nazi Germany as various groups competed for Hitler's favor.
The time frame is probably a little compressed than how it would have happened in 'real life' so to speak, but the Empire probably would have split up into civil war as the various factions tried to set themselves up as Palpy's successor.

IMHO, the only one who could have pulled it off would have been Vader.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sort of a cop out ending for me if you accept the power and militarization involved in this empire. 25,000 stardestroyers just vanish in less than 10 years of fighting?

Why? Look at the canonical scale of civil space combat - The Battle of Coruscant. There are thousands of Star Destroyers going at it at once.

[FTeik]

The problem i see with this question is, that we don't know how much the secret manipulations by Palpatine after the battle of Endor accelerated the fragmentation of the empire.

Otherwise Palpatine's wanne-be successors (especially Isard) wouldn't have been weakened enough to leave large territories to the rebels without a fight.

Thrawn despite being outnumbered three to one in the beginning nearly defeated the rebels. If not for Palpatine keeping him short on warships and orchestrizing his assassination (we still don't know, how exactly that happened), who knows, how far he would have come?

In any case Vader would have been able to pull it off.

If both Sithlords had bitten the dust, whoever is in control over Coruscant, able to clean the house quick enough and able to rally a significant portion of the military would have also been able to pull it off.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Thrawn only survived to take control later because all rivals and superiors had already been liquidated. If Palpatine had suddenly died, there would've been even more disarray, and it is likely that Thrawn would have met his colleagues' fate.

[Stravo]

Has it been retconned that Palpatine knew about Thrawn and actively opposed him from behind the scenes?

[FTeik]

The DESB says, that the 200 Katana-Dreadnoughts were only important, because Palpatine had recalled so many ships to the DeepCore and that "it was no accident, that Thrawn failed".

Somehow Palpatine must have had a hand in it (although i have no idea how). My best guess is, that he directed Leia's attention in DFR towards a certain decon-droid with the force.

[Imperator Galacticus]

Earnestly, I don't think that Vader has any chance of running the Empire as effectively as Palpatine had ran it. Vader was never much of a politician and his manner of dealing with threats has always seemed to be direct and precise enough to the point, where sublety instead would have benefited the August Throne in achieving its ends. Vader however is more of a tool, able to issue orders and direct the wrath of His Imperial Majesty onto one subject or another in order to destroy impediments against His Majesty's will.

Retrospectively Lord Vader never aquired the ability to handle troops and heads-of-state in the manner that the Emperor did. He is more likely scoffed at because of his bizarre appearance, and his ability of persausion through the dark side was as equally infirm. That more than anything else simply convinced Vader to rely on an image of fear more than the Emperor, for that was the only way in which Vader could govern.

The second option given seems beneficially greater. The Galactic Empire has no need for a ruler with Sith-like qualities, only a politician who is able to inspire loyalty in his men, has a habit of command, and knows the greatest secret in running the Empire: create conflict within the realm, then manuever both sides in a way that makes the perpetrator seem as if the savior. Once firmly in power, the new emperor can loosen back on some of more restrictive laws and attempt to create some sort of reasonably effective government that can still be autocratic, but benign to the wishes of the populace as a whole, not being centered on the gratifications of a single man.

[FTeik]

But contrary to popular believe, Darth Vader wasn't just a brute. He also enjoyed the respect of the grunts, because he was willing to lead from the front and get his hands dirty.

[UCBooties]

But contrary to popular believe, Darth Vader wasn't just a brute. He also enjoyed the respect of the grunts, because he was willing to lead from the front and get his hands dirty.

And no one is denying that Vader has a good deal of respect from the armed forces. Our concerns rise from questions of his ability to lead the state as well as the military. Palpatine knew when to use a scalpel and when to use a sword. Vader on the other hand was always more of a sledge hammer kind of guy.

For the record, I'm not saying that in every circumstance where these two figures are removed, the Empire implodes, just that precedent sugests that when these charecters are removed, the Empire suffers massive destabilization over a greater or lesser period of time. The imperial government is extremely susceptable to infighting and power politics. This lack of clear command could again allow the rebel alliance to make the gains which would have been impossible against a united force of the Empire's stature and resources. Scenario B in my mind only changes the time frame and some (admittedly important) events, but the end result remains largely the same, eventual defeat for the Empire.

I draw the distinction in A that Vader most likely could lead the Empire to victory over the rebels, but that the government that he commanded would colapse eventualy.

[Gunhead]

Well I'm no master of the EU but in the light what Tarkin said: "The regional governors have been given complete authority."

Between ANH and ROTJ they have a few years to establish themselves as rulers and build a power base. This with little or no supervision from above. Once Palpy and Vader are out of it a huge bidding contest for the starfleets begin, coupled with some gunboat diplomacy to keep the upper hand to your neighbors. Once the fleets have picked their sides a shooting match can begin and a new ruler will arise.

Or the whole galaxy suffers years of civil war.


Or all of the above and not necessarily in this order.

Things would have gotten real interesting if the senate had still been up and running when Palpy kicked the bucket.

Anyhow Moffs and regional governors are the ones in position to compete for power. The Moff or governor who gets his act together the quickest is a top contender.

-Gunhead

[McC]

Is it possible that Vader could exert control over the politicos without subtlty? He tended to keep his own subordinates in the military in line with the threat of death hanging over their heads.

Based on AOTC, it almost seems as if Vader is something of a political idealist (i.e. "the people should decide the best course of action, and then do it" "that's what we do, but sometimes the people don't always agree" "then they should be made to") and he might attempt to affect such idealism with his blunt methodology and be moderately successful at doing so.

Furthermore, if his support in the military is so wide, as has been stated in previous posts, he may be able to effect control through that: own the military and you own the government. If enough of the troops believe in Vader and what he's striving towards, the regional governors and their local forces are likely fucked.

[CJvR]

Say that in between ANH and ESB Palpatine dies from a freak unforeseeable accident. Vader is elevated to the post of Emperor and the rebellion proceeds as it always has.

Would the rebellion still have won in this instance? Would the Empire still have fallen into in fighting without Palpatine? Without Palpatine's obsession with turning Luke and his half assed trap on Endor would the rebels still be able to turn the tide?

Option B:

Vader and Palpy go down in a freak accident. Now there are no Sith controlling the Empire and no other Force users come forth to help them out so its just the Empire vs. The Rebellion (The Rebels still have Luke)

I think the Empire would fall appart if both Vader and Palpatine were removed. Like Alexander's empire fell every general, moff and governor would consider themselves the best candidate for the job. If there had been a Senate or any legitemate authority that could step in and command a wide support from core worlds and the military it might be different but there isn't.

With Vader the Empire would probably survive. Palpatine was mainly a politician so the political side of the Empire would probably suffer a major upheaval but the survival of the Empire would ultimately rest upon it's military power and Vader could probably keep the military united. The Empire would change though, from the absolute feudal monarchy under Palpatine into a totalitarian military dictatorship under Vader. We would probably see lots of little wanabees getting squashed by Vader as well as open revolt by RA sympathisers but I doubt it would be enough. Then once Vader take his seat in the throneroom on the completed DSII it will be game over.

[Darth Fanboy]

Say that in between ANH and ESB Palpatine dies from a freak unforeseeable accident. Vader is elevated to the post of Emperor and the rebellion proceeds as it always has.

Call me a die hard Vader fan if you want but I think this is the ideal situation for the Empire. Vader wouldn't use the overly grandoise schemes of Palpatine and use every opportunity to crush the rebels, then once victory over them was secured the Bureaucracy would be fucked and Emperor Vader would root out much of the corruption within the Empire. I don't think he ever wanted to line his pockets and sit in the 'ivory tower' like Palpatine wanted, Vader truly wanted to bring order to the galaxy.

I don't believe Luke would have tried to change Vader as he did in DE (Stravo is the only one here who hates it more than I do I believe). In DE Luke was considered a master which I think enabled him to be more overconfident in himself. But perhaps if Luke was taken and the Rebellion crushed perhaps Luke might sign up to act as sort of a moderating influence, but I don't think he would make much headway doing that.

Would the rebellion still have won in this instance? Would the Empire still have fallen into in fighting without Palpatine? Without Palpatine's obsession with turning Luke and his half assed trap on Endor would the rebels still be able to turn the tide?

Palpatine designed the Empire so that it would fail without him, if he couldn't have it all then he wanted no one to have it. Only Darth Vader could possibly have the ability and the opportunity to take control and with him out of the picture I believe it creates a vacuum of power so great (without any royal family in place) that it enables all of the greedy and petty officials throughout the Empire to start warring with each other. None of those 25,000 Star Destroyers disappeared, but a great many of them started pointing their guns at each other.