The Empire and the SS

[darthnidankendo]

It has always seem pretty obious to me that Lucas made the Empire with Hitler's SS in mind. From there uniforms to the use of "stormtroopers".
Some of the motivations also seem to be somewhat parralel in my oppinion. The Empires dislike or right down hate of other spicies in the galaxy and there destruction.

[Alexus]

Well done! Have a c00kie! No really, go to your local c00kie shop and buy one. Pretend it's on me.

[darthnidankendo]

Well done! Have a c00kie! No really, go to your local c00kie shop and buy one. Pretend it's on me.

The Wit is strong with you, young jackass!

[Crazedwraith]

Actually the SA were the storm troopers IIRC. Thye were also pheodophiles and Hitler had them killed. (becuase they tired to put prerssure on hitler to do things, not for the pheadophillia)

[Mange]

Well, if we are to be nit-picky, the SA (Sturmabteilung) was the Nazi stormtroopers, thugs that terrorized the streets during and immediately after the Nazi rise to power. The SA wished to form the backbone of Germany's military, but the leadership of the SA was murdered during and after the event known as The Night of the Long Knives, which partially was ordered to gain the approval of the military leadership (Röhm was asked two days later to commit suicide, but refused and was shot instead). The SA soon after lost all influence, and was reduced to perform non-military tasks.

The SS, while originally part of SA, was both a political and military organization that consisted of selected individuals chosen by their ideological and racial purity that enforced the ideological aims of the Nationalsocialists.

I don't think there are many similarities in their uniforms. In the pre-war time, the SS wore black uniforms, but during the war it changed to grey. The Waffen-SS (the military branch of the SS) wore a grey uniform, very much alike the standard German army uniform.

Lucas has found many inspirations for the Empire in the Third Reich. He made a direct reference to the officers' uniforms on the TESB DVD commentary, but they're not often that direct.

EDIT: I didn't see your post, Crazedwraith. It's true that some of the prominent leaders (such as the chief of staff and the de facto leader Ernst Röhm) was openly homosexual. That DOES NOT make them pedophiles. Röhm could have been, and when he was arrested during The Night of the Long Knives, some accounts states that he was found in bed with a young boy.

[Glocksman]

The most interesting similarity between the Empire and the Nazi Party/Third Reich government is the proliferation of petty fiefdoms and decentralization of power among both governments.

Hitler's Reich was not the super-organized, super-efficient state that 'historian' John Gill in that Godawful ST:TOS episode made it out to be. It was a state of many satrapies and entities that were constantly competing for Hitler's favor. If the SS couldn't quote a Hitler decree, they were just one of many organizations in the Reich competing for power.

Hitler set it up this way on purpose to protect his power and ensure that no rival could emerge from the pack and challenge him. At the time, the Germans called these goings-on 'National Socialist War Games'.

I suspect Palpatine organized the Empire along similar lines and that's why it split upon his death in ROTJ

[IRG CommandoJoe]

There are no similarities between the Star Wars Stormtroopers with any real military uniforms, AFAIK. And to me, the Imperial officer uniforms more closely resemble Imperial Japanese uniforms rather than Nazi officer uniforms. For example:





Similar, no?

[Alexus]

You're right. Where did people get this idea about German uniforms being like Imperial uniforms anyway?

[Elheru Aran]

I don't know about that.... check this out.



Aside from the hat and the pockets, it's pretty close-- jodphurs, belt and boots and all.

[Mange]

The most interesting similarity between the Empire and the Nazi Party/Third Reich government is the proliferation of petty fiefdoms and decentralization of power among both governments.

Hitler's Reich was not the super-organized, super-efficient state that 'historian' John Gill in that Godawful ST:TOS episode made it out to be. It was a state of many satrapies and entities that were constantly competing for Hitler's favor. If the SS couldn't quote a Hitler decree, they were just one of many organizations in the Reich competing for power.

Hitler set it up this way on purpose to protect his power and ensure that no rival could emerge from the pack and challenge him. At the time, the Germans called these goings-on 'National Socialist War Games'.

I suspect Palpatine organized the Empire along similar lines and that's why it split upon his death in ROTJ

Well, as I see it, it was more like a competition among the senior figures of the Nazi leadership. For example, Reichsminister Göring and the foreign minister von Ribbentrop competed who would have the most influence on the German foreign policy. Göring often made decisions that von Ribbentrop didn't approve. In the days prior to the German invasion of Poland, Göring, who Hitler had lost interest in, tried to gain some of his lost influence by using the Swedish businessman Birger Dahlerus as a sort of indirect mediator between Great Britain and Germany (seemingly to find a diplomatic solution, Hitler had his mind set at war). Göring even offered to fly to Great Britain himself, but von Ribbentrop prevented him from doing so. The same kind of animosity was found between almost all of the senior Nazis such as Goebbels, Bormann etc.

The Third Reich was indeed a very centralized state. The Third Reich was based on the leadership principle, that established that a person would have total responsibility in his field and unquestioning obedience from the subordinates and subjects. The German states, that previously had had a large degree of sovereignty, was reduced to provinces. The mayors of the major cities (such as Berlin) was appointed by Hitler personally and they were given total power over the cities, totally replacing the elected bodies. Then there was a system of Gau (districts) under the leadership of a Gauleiter (district leader). During the Nazi expansion, Reichsgaue was also established. I shouldn't get any deeper into this, suffice to say it was centralized.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Aside from the hat and the pockets, it's pretty close-- jodphurs, belt and boots and all.

Here is another photo showing more of the Japanese officer uniform (on the far right). You see that the general shape of the Imperial tunic is no more similar to the Nazi uniform than to the Japanese uniform. Notice how the Japanese uniform has pants very similar to jodphurs, that the tunic's collar goes up to the neck like in both Imperial and Nazi uniforms, and that the general trim of the tunic is very similar.

[Dooey Jo]

*snip first Japanese soldier pic*

Excuse me for being off-topic and a huge Zelda nerd, but there's a Triforce on the right pocket of that uniform

Actually, I knew that that symbol has had some significance in the history of Japan (IIRC, it was the symbol of a samurai clan), but I didn't know it was used during WWII...

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Hah, cool. So I suppose what you don't see in the picture, in the officer's sheath, is the Master Sword.

[Danny Bhoy]

<snipped> I don't think there are many similarities in their uniforms. In the pre-war time, the SS wore black uniforms, but during the war it changed to grey. The Waffen-SS (the military branch of the SS) wore a grey uniform, very much alike the standard German army uniform.

<snipped>

EDIT: I didn't see your post, Crazedwraith. It's true that some of the prominent leaders (such as the chief of staff and the de facto leader Ernst Röhm) was openly homosexual. That DOES NOT make them pedophiles. Röhm could have been, and when he was arrested during The Night of the Long Knives, some accounts states that he was found in bed with a young boy.

I vaguely recall that the Waffen-SS had their own sort of camouflage battledress.

Also, the young boy bit IIRC was not Roehm but his COS or No.2 when the Long Knives were unsheathed. Can't remember the name of the perv. But somehow I thought that the young boy was an eye-witness recollection which seemed to imply that the fella was a young MAN rather than a young BOY per se. It's been well over 10 years since I read Heinz Hoehn's Order of the Death's Head, fucking brilliant book, I must say, and sadly I think I've lost the book. Bugger really.

[Mange]

<snipped> I don't think there are many similarities in their uniforms. In the pre-war time, the SS wore black uniforms, but during the war it changed to grey. The Waffen-SS (the military branch of the SS) wore a grey uniform, very much alike the standard German army uniform.

<snipped>

EDIT: I didn't see your post, Crazedwraith. It's true that some of the prominent leaders (such as the chief of staff and the de facto leader Ernst Röhm) was openly homosexual. That DOES NOT make them pedophiles. Röhm could have been, and when he was arrested during The Night of the Long Knives, some accounts states that he was found in bed with a young boy.

I vaguely recall that the Waffen-SS had their own sort of camouflage battledress.

Also, the young boy bit IIRC was not Roehm but his COS or No.2 when the Long Knives were unsheathed. Can't remember the name of the perv. But somehow I thought that the young boy was an eye-witness recollection which seemed to imply that the fella was a young MAN rather than a young BOY per se. It's been well over 10 years since I read Heinz Hoehn's Order of the Death's Head, fucking brilliant book, I must say, and sadly I think I've lost the book. Bugger really.

Oh yeah, I wrote it incorrectly, it was Edmund Heines (SA-Obergruppenführer of Silesia, that was shot on the spot together with his lover outside the hotel in Wiessee where several prominent SA-leaders had gathered for some... activities. It was mentioned in some book that I read (I can't recall which one) that several complaints were forwarded to the SA by parents regarding the behaviour of some of the SA leaders and that they seduced young boys.

The standard Waffen-SS uniform is the one I described, but naturally they had camoflage dresses as well. I think the uniform you're referring to are the summer camouflage uniforms that was introduced during the early summer of 1944 (Waffen SS M44 uniforms). A winter camouflage uniform for the SS was introduced in the winter of 1943.

[Stark]

The OP mentions the use of the term 'stormtroopers' and similar motivations, citing the hatred of other races. In my opinion, none of these are true.

Stormies are stormies because of a translation. Sure, there are THEMATIC similarities (faceless goons, etc), but Stormies don't have a political arm, aren't AFAIK chosen for ideological reasons, etc. And 'stormtrooper' is a holdover from WWI, where it described assault troops, so fuck the Nazis for nicking it.

The motivations of the Empire are the apotheosis of Palpatine. While I'm sure Hitler expected to be immortal, Palpy didn't fight a war of expansion, or get bogged down fighting a greater enemy. I don't buy the similarities, because there are too many differences, not least that Palpy rules the galaxy, and isn't gearing up to attack his neighbours because of bizarre ideological reasons left over from the previous war.

The race thing is more dubious (I don't buy it myself: Palpy can be personally racist without the Empire as a whole being institutionally racist) but I think there is a difference between ie Jews/Slavs vs Aryans and humans vs tentacle beasts or bear creatures or toadmen or guys with hammerheads. There is a world of difference between discriminating between two different philosophies or ethnicities with no notable physical differences and two totally separate species.

[Gunhead]

The whole "Empire hates aliens" thing is almost completely an invention of the EU. In the movies there is little or no indication that aliens are being oppressed by the Empire.
At the same time it's pretty logical why the Empire doesn't recruit aliens into it's ranks.

-Gunhead

[Lex]

Also, didnt you consider that Uniforms generally look similar, no matter which nation designs them??

[Gorefiend]

The whole "Empire hates aliens" thing is almost completely an invention of the EU. In the movies there is little or no indication that aliens are being oppressed by the Empire.
At the same time it's pretty logical why the Empire doesn't recruit aliens into it's ranks.

Ep 4: An Imperial officier calls chewie "a thing".

As for no non-humans serving in the Imperial fleet, there really is no good reason why they should not, aside from plane racism. Humans might be the most common and versatile race in the Empire, but by no means best at everything. There are a lot of races out there with natural piloting, fighting and tactical skills that are beyond the skills humans have.

Sure it is nice to be able to standardize uniforms/equipment to human use, but most humanoid races can use equipment designed for humans just as well. It would in fact be far more illogical for the Empire not to use the natural advantages other races have offer humans in it’s fighting forces.

[Gunhead]

That's one incident. Besides the officer sees an alien handcuffed escorted by two troopers. So he must have done something to end up in detention.
Or he was just being an asshole just because he felt like it.

Anyway it hardly proves that the aliens are systematically oppressed by the empire.

-Gunhead

[Gorefiend]

Or he was just being an asshole just because he felt like it.

He might have been ^^ tells as something about how the Empire picks it’s officers, he?

On the same token we don’t see any prove that the empire does not oppressed Aliens, but that aside, the Rebellion makes relatively big use of Aliens in it’s fighting forces does hint at that, there are a least a few races that do not seem all to pleased with the Empire, for one reason or another.

[Gunhead]

Based on the movies it's really hard to prove if aliens were oppressed by the empire. Actually the question is were aliens oppressed to any greater degree compared to humans? Jawas were wasted by stormies, but then again so were Lukes parents.

Could also consider how readily aliens want to fills empires ranks, and if the turnout is too low it's just easier to stick with humans. Certainly the Empire could use aliens for specialized missions, but that's what mercenaries and bounty hunters are for.

Guarding a detention center doesn't sound to me as a fast track to success, so no wonder officers there are not from the top 10%.
Most likely it's a post you get stuck with, but since so much money and time has already spent on training, it would be wasteful to just throw them out.

-Gunhead

[ImperialBishop]

It's also interesting to see how Hitler destroyed German federalism that had existed from the beginnings of the Holy Roman Empire for the purpose of consolidating power. While it's certainly true that dictatorships breed endemic corruption, I don't think that necessarily entails a decentralization of power, either in the RW or in SWU.

On Palpy's racism - the fact that he continues to tolerate aliens on his left and right in the ROTS trailer suggests it's not that big of a problem; if he and the Empire was really as virulently racist as the EU makes him/it out to be, then the first thing to get accomplished is to get those aliens off the Chancellor's platform in the Senate.

The movies use uniforms like that because that's what most people think about when they think facist-military-industrial-complex. Shiny cavalry boots, jodhpurs, tunic.

[Elfdart]

You're right. Where did people get this idea about German uniforms being like Imperial uniforms anyway?

The fact that most are field grey, with some being black. Japanese uniforms were olive, tan, dark green, khaki, white and navy blue.

The collar on Imp unis looks like something from India in the 1890s, in other words, an old-style bellhop uniform.

[Kurgan]

Is the ESB DVD commentary the one where Lucas actually calls the Imperial officers "Nazis"?

I don't agree that the Stormtroopers themselves resemble anything in Nazism (other than the name), but clearly Lucas intended us to associate the Empire in some way with Nazi Germany (as well as any other "bad empire" in the popular imagination). That can take the form of similarities in both their behavior as well as their appearance.