Would the Empire have won without The Emperor?

[Solauren]

Lord Vader's announcement at his coronation:

"Any regional governors that screw up get Executor shoved down there throat"

"Now then, it's time to discuss my tax reforms...."

Okay, seriously, most of the Empire was TERRIFIED of Lord Vader.
Hell, his own officers were so scared of him, they tried to kill him on a number of occasions (the one that sticks out to me most occured AFTER ESB, when they tried to jetison out of the Tarkin Battle Station).

If he had the full support of the military, which there is no reason to doubt he would not (being on Vader's ship was regarded as a fast track to promotion, imagine that across the Imperial fleet), the rebellion gets crushed, and any Governors that step out of line get Force chocked into oblivion.

Why would Vader succeed where the Emperor failed?

Vader was not a subtle man. Shadows of the Empire indicates that the Death Star 2's existence was leaked to the rebels at the will of the Emperor via Prince Xizor/Black Sun. Vader did not approve. Vader would not have gone with it, the rebellion would not have known about the Death Star until it was too late.

The rebellions first indications of the Death Star's exsistence comes right after Emperor Vader's forces locate the rebel base (on Arbra). It drops into Hyperspace with the Imperial fleet, he demands Luke be handed over or he'll start Death Star'ing rebel planets. Luke surrenders, and Vader blows the rebel fleet to hell

[Cal Wright]

You are very fucking interesting Stravo, I will say that. What the hell kind of job allows you to come up with this shit, must be nice. Either way, let's pick this apart and call it a day.

Say that in between ANH and ESB Palpatine dies from a freak unforeseeable accident. Vader is elevated to the post of Emperor and the rebellion proceeds as it always has.

Would the rebellion still have won in this instance? Would the Empire still have fallen into in fighting without Palpatine? Without Palpatine's obsession with turning Luke and his half assed trap on Endor would the rebels still be able to turn the tide?

Vader would literally tear the Empire apart trying to obtain Luke. That is and was ultimately his downfall. He should of just out right killed him when he had the chance. He wanted a father-son establishment, and break away from the Emperor's control. Vader would be to wrapped up in apprehending Luke to control the Empire. I think he could control a good piece of the Navy, like previously stated, because a lot of the lower ranks supported him, and thier commanders feared him. Especially with the Emperor not holding him back anymore. IF, and I capitalized if, Vader was able to turn Luke, then he might have a chance of regaining the already destablized Empire in time to totally crush the rebellion. He is a hammer guy after all.

This to me is a 50/50 scenerio. It can really go either way.

Option B:

Vader and Palpy go down in a freak accident. Now there are no Sith controlling the Empire and no other Force users come forth to help them out so its just the Empire vs. The Rebellion (The Rebels still have Luke)

I have to agree with Ill, and unfortunately with the EU as well. The power vacuum is too great, and the doggs are too fierce. As the Empire completely tears itself apart, everyone and everything looks for safety and stability, and when a few Mon Cals and X-Wings start pilling into your neighborhood to take out an ISD, the populace is going to side with the Rebellion. In a way, a slow start, but eventually the Rebellion will win over the majority, and as the strongest cull each other from the running, the weak are picked off until the Galaxy finally balances out and the Galactic Republic is re-established.

[Galvatron]

I have a hard time believing that Vader would be handed the throne upon Palpatine's death.

[Darth Fanboy]

Vader would literally tear the Empire apart trying to obtain Luke. That is and was ultimately his downfall.

I think Solauren's previous post said it best, Vader would threaten the Rebellion into turning Luke over to him. Without the Emperor to counter Vader acting at his discretion it wouldn't take more than say, the threat of BDZ on a heavily populated rebel-sympathizing world such as Sullust or Mon Calamari. THen Vader would not have to dismantle the Empire as you've said.

I have a hard time believing that Vader would be handed the throne upon Palpatine's death.

Handed the throne? Perhaps not in the sense of a clear transition of power but if Plapatine is gone the people working at the center of the Empire, people like Sate Pestage will realize there is only one person who can maintain the Empire as it is in the wake of Palpatine, Vader, and they bring in Vader so they themselves can maintain their own positions.

Either that or Vader simply kills everyone in his way to take power, which arguably he can do. People like Zsinj or Teradoc that decide to turn against him will be made into examples.

And if Vader is given command of a completed Death Star 2 then the odds are stacked even more heavily in his favor. this point of course is contigent on Palpatine dying before allowing the "leaked information" to the Rebels.

[Cal Wright]

I have a hard time believing that Vader would be handed the throne upon Palpatine's death.

Who said anything about it being handed to him.

[Cal Wright]

Vader would literally tear the Empire apart trying to obtain Luke. That is and was ultimately his downfall.


I think Solauren's previous post said it best, Vader would threaten the Rebellion into turning Luke over to him. Without the Emperor to counter Vader acting at his discretion it wouldn't take more than say, the threat of BDZ on a heavily populated rebel-sympathizing world such as Sullust or Mon Calamari. THen Vader would not have to dismantle the Empire as you've said.

Vader still has to rally his forces during the immediate vacuum. While most of the millitary would just assume Vader is in control, the higher ups, Moffs and such would be vieing for control. By that time, it would be a mad search. While Vader is a hard hitter, I still believe he would actually try and locate Luke prior to trying to bombard a planet. He's shown he's too obsessive with finding him.

[CJvR]

I have a hard time believing that Vader would be handed the throne upon Palpatine's death.

Handed? Like Claudius? I pity the poor Preatorian who tried that on Vader!
More likely the military will be informed who their new CIC is and recive orders to blow away any local Moff/Governor who object at the same time.

EDIT:
Backing Vader is not only a way for the military to avoid having to fight a civil war but it is also a huge powergrab for them. Vader is not a politician like Palpatine was, he will command through the military not the civilian administration Palpatine built up.

[Danny Bhoy]

How were Vader's relations with the various elites (collective and individual) in the Empire? Grand Admirals, GMoffs, Moffs, the Navy and Army officer corps etc. And would Palpatine's courtiers have gone over to him in the event of the Emperor's death? Speaking of which, who was the Praetorian Guard commander, the one who actually leads the Royal Guard? In the Roman Empire flicks and Chinese serials about various emperors and dynasties, the Imperial/Praetorian Guard commander is a decently sized wheel.

[Spartan]

Option A: Emperor Vader

I see a lot of Vader hating going on; lets not be swayed by the whiny-assed wanna be Sith Anakin that we see in the prequels. The Vader we see in the OT, is a whole different animal.

1. Vader was the military executer of the empire by the time of TESB. I.e. the Supreme commander of the entire Imperial military. His authority was second to only the Emperors. This means that he would command at the very least Courscant and the bulk of the Imperial navy, and the clone processing centers.

2. We should remember that until the fall of Courscant demonstrated to the average Imperial citizen that the Empire was fallible the rebellion had no legitimacy in the eyes of the common man.

3. Vader was known throughout the Empire as the Emperors right hand man. The people loved Palpy; they would side with his protégé before some nameless warlord.

4. Everyone seems to be discounting Vader's political savvy and decades of surviving court intrigues and assassination attempts. Read the SW: Empire series, from the beginning there were traitors and usurpers. Vader is not the mad dog that some make him out to be, he is actually quite charismatic as most dictators and strongmen are. (In the game Rebellion Vader actually has the highest diplomacy attribute of any Imperial negotiator/ambassador).

5. And let’s not forget that Vader has been planning to off Palpatine and replace him for years. Unless we are willing to believe that the Idea of offing Palpy just occurred to him in TESB. Clearly, he had a plan and I doubt it hinged solely on Luke's participation.

6. Finally the Empire did not fragment in a day! It took years and a complete lack of intelligent leadership to destroy it. The worst of the internecine warfare that ground fleets of starships to paste actually happened nearly nine years after the Emperors death.

7. There are countless darkside adepts, dark Jedi, hands, etc. in the Emperor's employ. As a Sith Lord Vader automatically commands them if not there loyalty. Further some of them were actually trained by Vader. He can always train more.

8. He's the most powerful force user ever.

The bottom line:

Say Vader steps in as Regent of the Empire, and declares that the Emperor declared him the sole heir. Vader has control of the military: clones production, Fondor & Kuat ship yards, etc. The military will not splinter, only a Grand Admiral would have the stones to defy the Vader and the Grand fleet. Further any Grand Admiral including Thrawn, would not carry anywhere near the authority that Vader would. Your average ISD doesn't no the identities of the GA's but he will sure as hell know who Lord Vader in. The like of Zsinj, Daala, Izsard or Harrsk versus Vader don't make me laugh. They'd never dare to speak out of turn let alone desert. As for the Privy Council and Imperial court...Vader would liquidate them ALL of them!

With his command of the entire military, political savvy, and command of the darkside of the force; Vader takes this easily.


Option B: One man of Vision

I'll just say this Thrawn came close to conquest of the Galaxy with far less. Remember that Alexander, Cesar and Gengis Khan are conquered with vastly outnumbered forces. Remove the interference of Emperor and one instance of really bad luck and Thrawn would have won. So, clearly if another strong charismatic and ruthless man who follows the dictates of Machiavelli could be found; he would be able to do very well given the situation.

Despite the Emperors stacking the deck against a successor holding the Empire together, it is far from a far gone conclusion that the Empire would fall. One man of vision and skill could have held it together, clearly if the Emperor could someone else could have. Vader could do it, Thrawn could do it, and possibly one of the other Grand Admirals could have done it. Even Izsard could have done it, had she not been a moron.

The Empire did not disintegrate in a day; it’s a slippery slope fallacy to propose that it would always fall apart regardless of the conditions or who's in charge. Really for the purposes of discussion the Rebels aren't even relevant as any significant fraction of the Empire could have crushed them even after the fall of Courscant.

[Cal Wright]

Option A: Emperor Vader

I see a lot of Vader hating going on; lets not be swayed by the whiny-assed wanna be Sith Anakin that we see in the prequels. The Vader we see in the OT, is a whole different animal.

1. Vader was the military executer of the empire by the time of TESB. I.e. the Supreme commander of the entire Imperial military. His authority was second to only the Emperors. This means that he would command at the very least Courscant and the bulk of the Imperial navy, and the clone processing centers.

That is in total aggreance with what I stated. The Navy KNOWS Vader. Taking low tier canon, TIE Fighter the game had the Emperor addressing the citizens about Vader taking the charge against the Rebel Terrorists.

2. We should remember that until the fall of Courscant demonstrated to the average Imperial citizen that the Empire was fallible the rebellion had no legitimacy in the eyes of the common man.

True, it was mainly subjegated worlds, and if we take the comics into account now from the Clone Wars then they seem to be worlds that sided with the seperatists. (i.e. Mon Calamari.)

3. Vader was known throughout the Empire as the Emperors right hand man. The people loved Palpy; they would side with his protégé before some nameless warlord.

4. Everyone seems to be discounting Vader's political savvy and decades of surviving court intrigues and assassination attempts. Read the SW: Empire series, from the beginning there were traitors and usurpers. Vader is not the mad dog that some make him out to be, he is actually quite charismatic as most dictators and strongmen are. (In the game Rebellion Vader actually has the highest diplomacy attribute of any Imperial negotiator/ambassador).

I'm disagreeing with you here.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
"He is as clumsy as he is stupid."
"Apology accepted Captain Needa."
"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."
"I hope so, for your sake commander. The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am."

5. And let’s not forget that Vader has been planning to off Palpatine and replace him for years. Unless we are willing to believe that the Idea of offing Palpy just occurred to him in TESB. Clearly, he had a plan and I doubt it hinged solely on Luke's participation.

There's probably plenty of offshoot lit to support this. I think SotE has something about it also. Could be mistaken.

6. Finally the Empire did not fragment in a day! It took years and a complete lack of intelligent leadership to destroy it. The worst of the internecine warfare that ground fleets of starships to paste actually happened nearly nine years after the Emperors death.

Incorrect. The X-Wing series was taking place 2-21/2 years after Endor. TTT was exactly five years. All of the residual splintering took place during this short period. Most of it had been resolved long before Thrawn came back. Anything later that involved Daala, pertains to the remenants. Even DE is around the 5 year mark, and I don't want to get Stravo started on the DE string again.

7. There are countless darkside adepts, dark Jedi, hands, etc. in the Emperor's employ. As a Sith Lord Vader automatically commands them if not there loyalty. Further some of them were actually trained by Vader. He can always train more.

8. He's the most powerful force user ever.

I'm with you on that. He is the choosen one.

The bottom line:

Say Vader steps in as Regent of the Empire, and declares that the Emperor declared him the sole heir. Vader has control of the military: clones production, Fondor & Kuat ship yards, etc. The military will not splinter, only a Grand Admiral would have the stones to defy the Vader and the Grand fleet. Further any Grand Admiral including Thrawn, would not carry anywhere near the authority that Vader would. Your average ISD doesn't no the identities of the GA's but he will sure as hell know who Lord Vader in. The like of Zsinj, Daala, Izsard or Harrsk versus Vader don't make me laugh. They'd never dare to speak out of turn let alone desert. As for the Privy Council and Imperial court...Vader would liquidate them ALL of them!

With his command of the entire military, political savvy, and command of the darkside of the force; Vader takes this easily.

You kind of kill your argument here. You talk about his political savvy, but then explain how he would succeed through the hammer and cicle campaign.

Option B: One man of Vision

I'll just say this Thrawn came close to conquest of the Galaxy with far less. Remember that Alexander, Cesar and Gengis Khan are conquered with vastly outnumbered forces. Remove the interference of Emperor and one instance of really bad luck and Thrawn would have won. So, clearly if another strong charismatic and ruthless man who follows the dictates of Machiavelli could be found; he would be able to do very well given the situation.

Despite the Emperors stacking the deck against a successor holding the Empire together, it is far from a far gone conclusion that the Empire would fall. One man of vision and skill could have held it together, clearly if the Emperor could someone else could have. Vader could do it, Thrawn could do it, and possibly one of the other Grand Admirals could have done it. Even Izsard could have done it, had she not been a moron.

The Empire did not disintegrate in a day; it’s a slippery slope fallacy to propose that it would always fall apart regardless of the conditions or who's in charge. Really for the purposes of discussion the Rebels aren't even relevant as any significant fraction of the Empire could have crushed them even after the fall of Courscant.

The Empire fell apart. Maybe not in a day, but in the time scale of things, it might as well have been. Excluding the time it took for the Sith to finally off the Jedi, it's rise and reign, the Empire ended with a thud pretty damn quickly. Like I said, they were already splintered just 2 years after Endor.

As far as any fraction of the Empire could crush the Rebellion, might I remind you that the Palpatine Empire didn't manage it. Even with their best troops, fleet ships and a DS II, regardless of any well laid trap the Emperor had, they still stepped up and kicked ass.

[Spartan]

Cal Wright wrote:

I'm disagreeing with you here.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
"He is as clumsy as he is stupid."
"Apology accepted Captain Needa."
"I hope so, for your sake commander. The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am."

True but those were all underlings, and or incompotent. Vader knows how to currie favor and play politics when needed, note how he does not berate or dismiss Tarkin in public. While in the ANH novelization he despises the man and all of the command staff.

But note how he treats those who are compotent. He didn't kill Piet dispite his failure in TESB. Everyone one who does there job, and knows their place gets common courtesy. Vader is not a mad dog....casual muderer most definitely, but a conscious one.

"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

He obviously is not above negotiations, they originally did have a deal right. Mind you that Cloud City was an illeagal Tibianna gas mine run by a known criminal. What leader in the real life would honor a verbal agreement with a felon, or smuggler, etc.

Note that he honors his contract with Boba, more or less. I could point to just as many instances of cold intellect as brutality if you bring in the EU.

The man will play politics if he has too.

Incorrect. The X-Wing series was taking place 2-21/2 years after Endor. TTT was exactly five years. All of the residual splintering took place during this short period. Most of it had been resolved long before Thrawn came back. Anything later that involved Daala, pertains to the remenants. Even DE is around the 5 year mark, and I don't want to get Stravo started on the DE string again.

I think your mistaken unless you have a source different than mine. The published Dark Horse SW timeline places the Original X-wing series at ANH + 4-5 years, the Thrawn Triology and ANH + 9 years and Dark Empire I & II along with Empire's End at ANH + 10-11 years.

That said despite the dates you gave we are still talking years here, and the point is Vader would never let the desintigration go that far to begin with. Also the point remains that the vast majority of the Imperial fleet still existed until the second period of Warlordism post Dark Empire. Althoughs, ships still existed up until 10-11 years after ROTJ. We don't need to go that far Isard controlled the virtually the entire Core, Inner and Mid-rim of the galaxy five years after Endor.

Starvo says the Emperor dies prior to Endor. Well that means the Death Squadron and the DS2 were n't destroyed, and the elite minds of the Empires military i.e. virtually all of the Grand Admirals did not die. All though assets would be at Vaders Disposal.

Heres another point the Emperors inner circle fabricated (although many believed) in church of the Dark side. That being the case who do you the think Sate Presage would side with the Isard and the bushwakers on the council or the Emperor's hand picked apprentice.

Hell Vader, might not even need to eliminate the entire council most would willingly follow him as the did the Emperor.

You kind of kill your argument here. You talk about his political savvy, but then explain how he would succeed through the hammer and cicle campaign.

No, not really force (not the Force) is a powerful tool. Without the presence of force, no rule of law has validity. I guarantee you that even the most brutal of dictator, strongmen, drug Lords, etc. are very politically savvy or they would be very dead. You have to sleep sometime, so you need at least someone on your side. Again Vader is not a mad dog, he will kill you if you are incompotent, if your a failure, are a threat to his power, or if you piss him off. Which is know different than, that such historical figures as: Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Kohmeni, Mao, Henry VII and so on. All of though men were very politically savvy, and all were butchers.

The Empire fell apart. Maybe not in a day, but in the time scale of things, it might as well have been. Excluding the time it took for the Sith to finally off the Jedi, it's rise and reign, the Empire ended with a thud pretty damn quickly. Like I said, they were already splintered just 2 years after Endor.

The point is it would never have fragmented in the first place, with Vader in charge, he would already hold the vast majority of the galaxy in an Iron grip.

As far as any fraction of the Empire could crush the Rebellion, might I remind you that the Palpatine Empire didn't manage it. Even with their best troops, fleet ships and a DS II, regardless of any well laid trap the Emperor had, they still stepped up and kicked ass.

The will of the force, bad luck, call it what you want. The rebellion was never a threat to the Empire. Palapatine never really put forth any real effort to destroy them. Remember without Luke the rebellion is nothing. Vader would eventually covert or kill Luke, and then the Rebellion is over. Hell without Luke the rebellion would not have survived Yavin. If Vader did not want Luke alive he would have burned off Hoth kill every rebel there. Needless to say Vader would never use the Deathstar to bait the rebellion. Remove Palpatine and his obessions and poor judgement (leaking the Deathstars location to the rebels....ridiculous) and the rebels die.

[Praxis]

Say that in between ANH and ESB Palpatine dies from a freak unforeseeable accident. Vader is elevated to the post of Emperor and the rebellion proceeds as it always has.

Would the rebellion still have won in this instance? Would the Empire still have fallen into in fighting without Palpatine? Without Palpatine's obsession with turning Luke and his half assed trap on Endor would the rebels still be able to turn the tide?

Vader is even more obsessed with turning Luke than the Emperor was.


Either:
A) Luke turns to the Dark Side. Empire wins.
B) Events play out the same, except this time when Vader turns back to the light side the Emperor doesn't kill him, and the Empire is reformed by a now-good Anakin Skywalker.
C) Events play out the same, except this time Luke is forced to kill Vader or defeat/capture him.
D) Luke dies, Empire wins.

Option B:

Vader and Palpy go down in a freak accident. Now there are no Sith controlling the Empire and no other Force users come forth to help them out so its just the Empire vs. The Rebellion (The Rebels still have Luke)

Option 1: Thrawn takes over the Empire. Thrawn has no obsession over Luke. Thrawn proceeds to wipe out...every last Rebel. Empire wins.

Otherwise, option 2: The 13 Grand Admirals (Thrawn was the 13th, he wasn't on the official GA lists though, those only had 12) fight each other. The galaxy breaks into a civil war. Only this time the Rebels aren't as prepared and have MUCH weaker forces. Everyone annihilates each other, the Rebels pop out to take advantage of the resulting mess, Thrawn shows up and targets the victor. Then we get a MUCH weakened Empire (still with Thrawn in charge) vs a weaker Rebellion. Who wins? Probably Thrawn, though the Imperial civil war probably gives the Rebellion a much needed boost in ranks, so he might end up outgunned.

[Alexus]

Thrawn? Outgunned? Never.

[Praxis]

Thrawn? Outgunned? Never.

Thrawn was ALWAYS outgunned. He just whooped his enemies even though they had more firepower

Five ISD's vs Sluis Van shipyards, remember?

[Alexus]

I meant overmatched, sorry.

Five ISDs, yeah.

And 30 Carracks.

And 20 Strike Cruisers.

[Praxis]

I meant overmatched, sorry.

Five ISDs, yeah.

And 30 Carracks.

And 20 Strike Cruisers.

Yeah, I said he might end up OUTGUNNED (because all the destruction will bring more people to the Rebel cause), not outmatched

[Alexus]

Thrawn is a no limits fallacy all on his own.

[YT300000]

Thrawn is a no limits fallacy all on his own.

If that were true, he'd have never died.

[Alexus]

If that were true, he'd have never died.

That's what he wants you to think.

[ImperialBishop]

IIRC, when Napoleon III was captured at Sedan during the Franco-Prussian War, that was pretty much it for the French. A republican, provisional government was installed, the Prussians occupied. Then there was the Paris Commune and what not. Basically, whenever a head of state is captured/killed in combat, the gov't collapses and all hell breaks loose. This seems to be reinforced by the Special Edition additions at the end of ROTJ, which shows Coruscant celebrating and pulling down statutes and what not. I think even had Vader lived and remained Sith, it would difficult to control the Galaxy with that much anti-Empire feeling going around.

[Jim Raynor]

Thrawn's forces were pathetic, he just made the most of them. I remember he was trying to buy warships off of Talon Karrde at one point during the trilogy.

[Cal Wright]

Cal Wright wrote:

Incorrect. The X-Wing series was taking place 2-21/2 years after Endor. TTT was exactly five years. All of the residual splintering took place during this short period. Most of it had been resolved long before Thrawn came back. Anything later that involved Daala, pertains to the remenants. Even DE is around the 5 year mark, and I don't want to get Stravo started on the DE string again.

I think your mistaken unless you have a source different than mine. The published Dark Horse SW timeline places the Original X-wing series at ANH + 4-5 years, the Thrawn Triology and ANH + 9 years and Dark Empire I & II along with Empire's End at ANH + 10-11 years.

This is the newest timeline in the back of all of the latest NJO books. Unless something has been released withing the year stating otherwise.

That said despite the dates you gave we are still talking years here, and the point is Vader would never let the desintigration go that far to begin with. Also the point remains that the vast majority of the Imperial fleet still existed until the second period of Warlordism post Dark Empire. Althoughs, ships still existed up until 10-11 years after ROTJ. We don't need to go that far Isard controlled the virtually the entire Core, Inner and Mid-rim of the galaxy five years after Endor.

I know that. 2 1/2 to be exact. Like I said, compared to the life span of the Empire itself, not to mention taking into account any movements along the PT timeline, it was a quick dissolving. Isard only held Coruscant and not even the whole inner rim. Within the X-Wing series she was ousted (for whatever crazy ass Stackpole bullshit he writes), and sent scurrying to a lone planet with little left. Zsinj was the biggest of the warlords and he got man handled as well. The Empire would still splinter. The vast majority of the Navy however would side with Vader. That's what makes the biggest difference.

Starvo says the Emperor dies prior to Endor. Well that means the Death Squadron and the DS2 were n't destroyed, and the elite minds of the Empires military i.e. virtually all of the Grand Admirals did not die. All though assets would be at Vaders Disposal.

IF the GA's remained loyal. They were appointed by the Emperor. They probably didn't look to highly on Vader.

Heres another point the Emperors inner circle fabricated (although many believed) in church of the Dark side. That being the case who do you the think Sate Presage would side with the Isard and the bushwakers on the council or the Emperor's hand picked apprentice.

c. Himself

No, not really force (not the Force) is a powerful tool. Without the presence of force, no rule of law has validity. I guarantee you that even the most brutal of dictator, strongmen, drug Lords, etc. are very politically savvy or they would be very dead. You have to sleep sometime, so you need at least someone on your side. Again Vader is not a mad dog, he will kill you if you are incompotent, if your a failure, are a threat to his power, or if you piss him off. Which is know different than, that such historical figures as: Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Kohmeni, Mao, Henry VII and so on. All of though men were very politically savvy, and all were butchers.

The point is it would never have fragmented in the first place, with Vader in charge, he would already hold the vast majority of the galaxy in an Iron grip.

As soon as Vader exerts anything, which would be immediate, the power hungry would lash out and try to take over. If Vader controls his obsessiveness with Luke long enough he can wrestle control back.

The will of the force, bad luck, call it what you want. The rebellion was never a threat to the Empire. Palapatine never really put forth any real effort to destroy them. Remember without Luke the rebellion is nothing. Vader would eventually covert or kill Luke, and then the Rebellion is over. Hell without Luke the rebellion would not have survived Yavin. If Vader did not want Luke alive he would have burned off Hoth kill every rebel there. Needless to say Vader would never use the Deathstar to bait the rebellion. Remove Palpatine and his obessions and poor judgement (leaking the Deathstars location to the rebels....ridiculous) and the rebels die.

Still not siding with you on this account. I don't see Vader caring about super weapons for the most part. The Empire was constantly trying to snuff them out. An SSD, a sector fleet of ISDs, full compliments of fighters, the DS II, and the best troops on the forest moon home to the shield gen, well laid trap, whatever it is, was to be the last stroke. Palpatine got caught up in himself and his abilities, and that's what cost him everything. Vader will obsess over finding Luke, and even there's no Vader there, the Rebels will still continue on to route out the Empire and restore peace and order to the Galaxy.

[Praxis]

Incorrect. The X-Wing series was taking place 2-21/2 years after Endor. TTT was exactly five years. All of the residual splintering took place during this short period. Most of it had been resolved long before Thrawn came back. Anything later that involved Daala, pertains to the remenants. Even DE is around the 5 year mark, and I don't want to get Stravo started on the DE string again.

I think your mistaken unless you have a source different than mine. The published Dark Horse SW timeline places the Original X-wing series at ANH + 4-5 years, the Thrawn Triology and ANH + 9 years and Dark Empire I & II along with Empire's End at ANH + 10-11 years.

Uh, you guys are saying the same thing, aren't you?

Cal Wright says TTT was 5 years after Endor. You say TTT was 9 years after YAVIN.

How many years are between ROTJ and ANH?

[Publius]

In the event of the Galactic Emperor's death, Lord Vader is not particularly high on the list of natural claimants to the Imperial Throne (although Grand Moff Trachta did refer to the Empire as being "a theocracy of two"). Lord Vader was the Galactic Emperor's personal representative and even his generalissimo after the Battle of Yavin, but his position in the Imperial State was far from absolute; he decidedly lacked the power and influence of the Grand Vizier or Ars Dangor (as gray an Eminence as Père Joseph ever was). Lord Vader, like GADM Grant and GADM Thrawn and even the Emperor's Hands, was more or less reliant on the Galactic Emperor's favor for his position; he lacked a power base of his own.

In addition to lacking a party of his own, Lord Vader had the active hatred of several established parties at court. He was overtly despised and opposed by such courtiers as the Baron Tagge, Grand Moff Nox Vellam, and GADM Rufaan Tigellinus, and covertly hated by others like the Prince Xizor. Nor was he so feared that to oppose him was unthinkable; there have been no less than three plots against him by disaffected Naval officers (one in "Betrayal," one in "Darth Vader Strikes," and one in "Resurrection of Evil" and "To Take the Tarkin").

There is ample evidence that Lord Vader dislikes politicking. Nevertheless, his distaste for it should not be mistaken for inability at it; he can be quite cunning when he chooses to be. He engineered the Baron Tagge's death on Monastery at Luke Skywalker's hands in "In Mortal Combat!', outmaneuvered the Princess Leia on Aargau in "The Third Law!" ,double-crossed the treacherous admirals in "Darth Vader Strikes," and arranged successfully to stigmatize Skywalker with his rebel comrades in "Pariah!"There is no question that he prefers direct and decisive action, as seen in The Empire Strikes Back and Shadows of the Empire, but he is most certainly not the clumsy brute that Mr. Zahn subsequently painted him as being (Thrawn snidely informed CAPT Pellaeon that he had no objection to accepting a good idea that was not his, unlike Lord Vader, despite the fact that the Dark Lord of the Sith had accepted Thrawn's own proposal to dispose of Zekka Thyne in "Side Trip").

Lord Vader almost certainly had in mind elevating himself to the Throne, not a Pestagian-Isardian regency or a Thrawnian shogunate. The best way to do this would be to secure his position as supreme commander. With the strategic forces under his command, he would wield a considerable amount of leverage against other possible claimants, and indeed might very well be able to win over the Grand Vizier or Dangor by offering to leave him in place as premier of his new Empire (neither Dangor nor the Grand Vizier ever showed an indication that they resented their status as the Galactic Emperor's alter ego, and could probably be convinced to continue managing the day-to-day operations of the Imperial State). This would dispose of one of the chief problems of ascending the Throne.

The problem of Lord Vader's obsession with finding his son might also be dealt with by judicious delegation of responsibility, which Lord Vader has been known to do before (e.g., FADM Firmus Piett after Bespin). He has been shown to have worked closely with Thrawn before, and could probably count on his support; he might also be able to secure the allegiance of Grant, the Tapani aristocrat who lacked any power base of his own, and of GADM Teshik, the conscientious and dutiful officer commanding the important Azure Hammer Command (it is very likely that he could also acquire GADM Takel, who was won over to Trioculus's Legitimists by nothing more than a demonstration of Force lightning). By delegating the war against the Rebellion to these officers, and possibly dispatching his own dark side pupils – such as Lord Hethrir, High Inquisitor Tremayne – to find and bring Skywalker to him.

Lord Vader could certainly rule an Empire, albeit probably a different one from the one that Darth Sidious created. He is more than willing to play competing parties against each other, and will not hesitate to liquidate enemies when the time is right (indeed, this style of leadership held Isard in power during her dictatorial regency, and it was her own deliberate policy that brought her regime down). As early as the Battle of Yavin, he fancied plans to install himself as a celestial ruler, and he certainly planned to "kill the Emperor and devour his darkness, and rule the universe." His plans for apotheosis were probably more like Jerec's, and therefore might be seen as relatively more benign than the Galactic Emperor's own narcissistic design.

A final note on Lord Vader's religious leanings: As late as Return of the Jedi he was a committed devotee of the dark side of the Force, as evidenced by his reflection that the eternal "emptiness at his core" would become "an exalted void" that would "encompass the universe" after he "learned all he could of the dark power" from the Galactic Emperor's "dark genius," and seized that same power and "keep its cold light at his own core." He fully intended to rule the universe as a dark side theocrat, with his son at his side. Though he lacked the Galactic Emperor's narcissistic desire to consume all life into himself, he certainly showed no signs of apostatizing and returning to the Jedi; he only repudiated the dark side when faced with the immediate choice between his redemptive love for his son and his perverse love for his Sith Master. With the Galactic Emperor dead, this choice would never present itself, and there is little impetus for such a light side relapse absent the Galactic Emperor (not to mention that his status as the Chosen One is nullified by the destruction of the dark side's avatar).

PUBLIUS