Star Trek vs. Star Wars With Equal Firepower

[Junghalli]

OK, standard vs. scenario, the Empire finds a wormhole leading to the Trek galaxy and Palpatine or whoever's now in charge decided to conquer the new galaxy. Only one difference. We nerf Wars firepower (or increase Trek's firepower, whichever you prefer) so that the two sides have pound-for-pound equality. That is to say a Trek ship and a Wars ship of equal size and an equal number of guns will have about the same firepower. For this to work we have to assume power generation is about equal in both universes, but the Empire gets to keep technological advantages like hyperdrive which's absence wouldn't have any direct impact on firepower.
Certainly no Trek power could take down the Empire (the Empire has sheer numbers and their ships are generally bigger and more heavily armed period) but I'm thinking with this situation things might go a little differently from the standard walkover. The Trek galaxy would I would think be much harder to pacify.

[The Spartan]

That speed advantage the Empire has would be a HUGE deciding factor. If I can show up at any planet within hours that it takes you months or even years to reach I have an extreme advantage over you because you can't place your weapons in a position that can affect me.

But, even with unnerfed weaponry the STverse ships are still horribly outgunned. A GCS is not *terribly* smaller than an ISD but the ISD has far more weapons mounted on it's hull. To say nothing of the TIE swarms to overload the targeting of the Feds, etc.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Do the Imperials still have their ubershields? If so, it's a walk in the park.

[Darth Wong]

But, even with unnerfed weaponry the STverse ships are still horribly outgunned. A GCS is not *terribly* smaller than an ISD but the ISD has far more weapons mounted on it's hull. To say nothing of the TIE swarms to overload the targeting of the Feds, etc.

Actually, you would need roughly 14 GCSs to add up to the volume of a single ISD. And an ISD has more than a hundred weapon emplacements on it, which dwarfs any ST vessel even using the equalized weapons of this scenario.

[DaveJB]

Space battles would be harder for the Empire, but they'd still manage to win due to better tactics and the fact that the commanders are trained in combat properly.

When it moves to ground combat the Federation will still get ass-raped.

[The Spartan]

Actually, you would need roughly 14 GCSs to add up to the volume of a single ISD. And an ISD has more than a hundred weapon emplacements on it, which dwarfs any ST vessel even using the equalized weapons of this scenario.

Thanks for the correction. With that in mind, its even more of a total rout for the Imperials than I initially thought; in my opinion the outcome will be no different than if they had firepower disparity still in place.

The Feds, if allowed to fire at all, could get, what, maybe 4 or 5 shots before an HTL ripped them to pieces? Certainly they would not get enough off to punch through an Imperial ship's shields.

[Junghalli]

Do the Imperials still have their ubershields? If so, it's a walk in the park.

No. The two universes have equal power generation and all that entails. That means equal weapons, equal shields etc. The Empire gets to keep technological advantages that don't directly tie in to power (ex. hyperdrive). Basically the purpose of the scenario is to see what the war will look like if you take away the Empire's obscene firepower advantage.

[The Spartan]

No. The two universes have equal power generation and all that entails. That means equal weapons, equal shields etc. The Empire gets to keep technological advantages that don't directly tie in to power (ex. hyperdrive). Basically the purpose of the scenario is to see what the war will look like if you take away the Empire's obscene firepower advantage.

Well that significantly alters what I thought the outcome would be. (Sorry, misinterpreted your meaning with regards to power and weapons capacity) Consequently it won't be a total pushover fight (obviously) and the Empire may lose a few ships, initially.

But the Feds still have too many things against them. They design ships to require a Structural Integrity Field, while the Empire does no such thing. Which, makes itobvious that the Empire's ships start out tougher. Add to that their heavy armor... I take back what I said, they still don't lose any vessels. Might have a few end up in dry dock but none that I think will require scuttling or decommisioning.

And remember, the obscene number of ships and the ridiculous industrial capacity at the Empire's disposal. They may be slowed down at first but after the first few engagements, they learn and being sweeping the Trekverse aside using their superior numbers, speed and tactics.

[Darth Wong]

Also remember that pound-for-pound shield equality would mean that an ISD would still have 14 times the GCS's shield strength. That, in conjunction with its huge number of weapons, would still allow ISDs to ass-rape Fed ships with ease, only taking losses when the Feds have a huge numerical advantage.

[Psycho Smiley]

Also remember that pound-for-pound shield equality would mean that an ISD would still have 14 times the GCS's shield strength. That, in conjunction with its huge number of weapons, would still allow ISDs to ass-rape Fed ships with ease, only taking losses when the Feds have a huge numerical advantage.

Didn't you once say this was the scenario you used when writing Conquest?

[Junghalli]

Also remember that pound-for-pound shield equality would mean that an ISD would still have 14 times the GCS's shield strength. That, in conjunction with its huge number of weapons, would still allow ISDs to ass-rape Fed ships with ease, only taking losses when the Feds have a huge numerical advantage.

Didn't you once say this was the scenario you used when writing Conquest?

From reading Conquest I'd say the Empire still had a pretty huge firepower advantage in there. Wong nerfed in somewhat, they actually do suffer losses, but not to the same degree as in this scenario.
The Federation would still go down in all likelyhood. The best realistic estimates are they have hundreds of starships (to the Empire's 25,000+), and none of their ships stand much of a chance against an ISD one on one. Same goes for Klingons and Romulans.
The Borg might do fairly well. With equal firepower one of those giant cubes would have to be a match for at least three or four ISDs (hmm, ponders a battle between an SSD and one of our massively enhanced Borg fusion cubes...).

[Grasscutter]

I think it makes a difference whether or not we decide if Trek weapons are brought up to Wars levels or vice versa. If the Empire's weapons are brought down to Trek level, at the very least doing a BDZ becomes much more difficult and time intensive.

[Junghalli]

I think it makes a difference whether or not we decide if Trek weapons are brought up to Wars levels or vice versa. If the Empire's weapons are brought down to Trek level, at the very least doing a BDZ becomes much more difficult and time intensive.

How about we compromise and make both sides weapons average at MT level?

[Stark]

Conquest features ISDs outclassed by Borg cubes - there is an ENORMOUS amount of nerfing going on.

[kaikatsu]

Even if we assume that a Galaxy class can take on an ISD in a straight up fight...

Even if we assume that the Empire can't afford to send that many ships, so that the Federation isn't totally swarmed...

The speed advantage decides everything. Interdictor gravity wells will create hell on Federation ships, but the Feddy ships can't catch a running ISD.

The Imps will be able to decide when and where to fight. If outclassed, they will simply run. If the Federation is outclassed, they will have NOWHERE to run.

The end result is a complete tactical control over the Federation. Some engagements may go poorly due to stupidity on the Imp side (let's face it, NO military machine is free from that) or the Federation might be able to pull some interesting tricks (The phase cloak will probably create some confusion at first, if we're being particularly generous). But positional superiority wins.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The Imps will be able to decide when and where to fight. If outclassed, they will simply run. If the Federation is outclassed, they will have NOWHERE to run.

You mean the Feds can't simply warp away?

[Star-Blighter]

Conquest features ISDs outclassed by Borg cubes - there is an ENORMOUS amount of nerfing going on.

True enough. But by using "lb for lb" reasoning, a cube would likely outmass an ISD by quite a bit even considering their hollow nature. Unless one wants to push for hypermatter density being a decidng factor (which would make an ISD overkill for just about anything) then cubes could very well take down ISDs.

[Praxis]

The Imps will be able to decide when and where to fight. If outclassed, they will simply run. If the Federation is outclassed, they will have NOWHERE to run.

You mean the Feds can't simply warp away?

Sure, but the Imperials can hyperdrive in front of wherever they are going.

[avatarxprime]

The Imperials would still take this, even with equal shields and weapons Imp ships have actual armor and stronger hulls. Although, if this were to be the Imps get nerfed to ST level weapons then this argument works. If, it was that ST gets raised to the level of SW than this doesn't work so well. However, Fed ships are still weaker in construction.

[kaikatsu]

You mean the Feds can't simply warp away?

Possibly. Depends how generous we are being. Don't forget that warp drives don't work particularly well in areas of intense gravity, which is supposedly what an Interdictor is creating to trap a fleet.

Even so, the strategic advantage of the Star Destroyer is supreme. They can choose where to fight. Whenever the Federation picks a target, the Imps can mass their forces there in no time. Whenever the Imperials pick a target, the Federation will either be forced to either sacrifice it, or to spread their forces so thinly it becomes ineffective.

Even if we assume that Star Wars level tech has been nerfed to the level where a BDZ is not an option, and where the Death Star simply doesn't work, we'd still be dealing with the potential to cause massive and widespread damage. The Federation would be forced into a point-defence of Earth, and the war would become one of attrition.

When you also take into account the general Federation unwillingness to attack civilian targets -- the war gets VERY messy. Best case scenario for the Federation is a decapitating strike on Imperial Centre with some strange new biotoxin or other weirdness... and hope for the best.

Hmm... how the Empire lost to the tribble infestation. Now THAT would be a story worth reading. =p

[Spacebeard]

You mean the Feds can't simply warp away?

Possibly. Depends how generous we are being. Don't forget that warp drives don't work particularly well in areas of intense gravity, which is supposedly what an Interdictor is creating to trap a fleet.

Also, I'd bet the Empire could easily pursue Federation ships that try to run using warp drive. Star Trek ships can be tracked when travelling at warp, and hyperdrive is much faster than warp.

When you also take into account the general Federation unwillingness to attack civilian targets -- the war gets VERY messy. Best case scenario for the Federation is a decapitating strike on Imperial Centre with some strange new biotoxin or other weirdness... and hope for the best.

If the two galaxies are linked by a wormhole in this scenario, the SW terminus would have to be very, very near Coruscant for the Federation to be able to reach it with warp drive, even discounting any defenses along the way.

That's another consequence of the massive disparity in both speed and territory size: the Empire can strike deep behind Federation lines whenever they choose, while it would take decades for the Federation to penetrate very far into Imperial territory.

I would say, with equal firepower, the Federation's only chance is to create a choke point at their end of the wormhole. I would guess the outcome would depend on how many ships the Feds are able to bring out to mob the wormhole and how quickly they can be repaired or replaced, and whether there's a limit to the size or number of the ships the Empire can send through the wormhole at a time.

Given the Empire's massive numerical advantage, they would probably be able to break through any blockade unless the wormhole crippled them very severely (like only being able to send in one frigate-sized ship at a time). An Executor class ship could probably break through almost any Starfleet blockade even in this scenario, for instance.

[18-Till-I-Die]

So in scenario--

HTL=Photon Torpedo yields

SW shields=ST shields

Warp=Hyperdrive

But...the Empire retains it's 25,000 ISDs and thus still outnumber the Feds.

That would be interesting. No BDZ for the Empire, but they still would have many, many more ships than the Federation.

If the Empire still gets the Death Star we could perhaps say the Federation gets phase cloaks or Genesis weapons.

[Star-Blighter]

So in scenario--

HTL=Photon Torpedo yields

SW shields=ST shields

Warp=Hyperdrive

But...the Empire retains it's 25,000 ISDs and thus still outnumber the Feds.

That would be interesting. No BDZ for the Empire, but they still would have many, many more ships than the Federation.

If the Empire still gets the Death Star we could perhaps say the Federation gets phase cloaks or Genesis weapons.

I HATE wank-tech superweapons, so lets please keep all talk of Deathstars and phasecloaks safely outside of this thread.

For the children.

Oh God please!

FOR THE CHILDREN!

[The Spartan]

So in scenario--

Warp=Hyperdrive

No, it's still Hyperdrive>Warp. It's just weapons and shields that are brought to parity.

[Soontir C'boath]

So in scenario--
Warp=Hyperdrive

No, it's still Hyperdrive>Warp. It's just weapons and shields that are brought to parity.

Except if you are to bring weapons and shields to the same level, the power generation to fuel them must go up too. Therefore the FTL capability should also have been increased.