Black Holes Don't Exist?

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Steven Snyder
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Black Holes Don't Exist?

Post by Steven Snyder »

I thought this may be an April Fools Joke, but the obvious hoax was noted already.

Link to Nature.com
Black holes 'do not exist'
Philip Ball
These mysterious objects are dark-energy stars, physicist claims.


Black holes are staples of science fiction and many think astronomers have observed them indirectly. But according to a physicist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, these awesome breaches in space-time do not and indeed cannot exist.

Over the past few years, observations of the motions of galaxies have shown that some 70% the Universe seems to be composed of a strange 'dark energy' that is driving the Universe's accelerating expansion.

George Chapline thinks that the collapse of the massive stars, which was long believed to generate black holes, actually leads to the formation of stars that contain dark energy. "It's a near certainty that black holes don't exist," he claims.

Black holes are one of the most celebrated predictions of Einstein's general theory of relativity, which explains gravity as the warping of space-time caused by massive objects. The theory suggests that a sufficiently massive star, when it dies, will collapse under its own gravity to a single point.

But Einstein didn't believe in black holes, Chapline argues. "Unfortunately", he adds, "he couldn't articulate why." At the root of the problem is the other revolutionary theory of twentieth-century physics, which Einstein also helped to formulate: quantum mechanics.

In general relativity, there is no such thing as a 'universal time' that makes clocks tick at the same rate everywhere. Instead, gravity makes clocks run at different rates in different places. But quantum mechanics, which describes physical phenomena at infinitesimally small scales, is meaningful only if time is universal; if not, its equations make no sense.

This problem is particularly pressing at the boundary, or event horizon, of a black hole. To a far-off observer, time seems to stand still here. A spacecraft falling into a black hole would seem, to someone watching it from afar, to be stuck forever at the event horizon, although the astronauts in the spacecraft would feel as if they were continuing to fall. "General relativity predicts that nothing happens at the event horizon," says Chapline.

However, as long ago as 1975 quantum physicists argued that strange things do happen at an event horizon: matter governed by quantum laws becomes hypersensitive to slight disturbances. "The result was quickly forgotten," says Chapline, "because it didn't agree with the prediction of general relativity. But actually, it was absolutely correct."

This strange behaviour, he says, is the signature of a 'quantum phase transition' of space-time. Chapline argues that a star doesn't simply collapse to form a black hole; instead, the space-time inside it becomes filled with dark energy and this has some intriguing gravitational effects.

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Outside the 'surface' of a dark-energy star, it behaves much like a black hole, producing a strong gravitational tug. But inside, the 'negative' gravity of dark energy may cause matter to bounce back out again.

If the dark-energy star is big enough, Chapline predicts, any electrons bounced out will have been converted to positrons, which then annihilate other electrons in a burst of high-energy radiation. Chapline says that this could explain the radiation observed from the centre of our galaxy, previously interpreted as the signature of a huge black hole.

He also thinks that the Universe could be filled with 'primordial' dark-energy stars. These are formed not by stellar collapse but by fluctuations of space-time itself, like blobs of liquid condensing spontaneously out of a cooling gas. These, he suggests, could be stuff that has the same gravitational effect as normal matter, but cannot be seen: the elusive substance known as dark matter.
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Post by McC »

Didn't someone else come out recently saying that dark energy doesn't need to exist? :?
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Post by Lone_Prodigy »

That's pure April Fools, no matter what they say.
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Post by Steven Snyder »

More research may indicate he isn't kidding.

This is from the FreeRepublic and was posted on July 07, 2003.
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Posted on 07/10/2003 6:09:58 AM PDT by Damocles

July 07, 2003
Frozen Stars
Black holes may not be bottomless pits after all
By George Musser


Demolishing stars, powering blasts of high-energy radiation, rending the fabric of spacetime: it is not hard to see the allure of black holes. They light up the same parts of the brain as monster trucks and battlebots do. They explain violent celestial phenomena that no other body can. They are so extreme, in fact, that no one really knows what they are.

Most researchers think of them as microscopic pinpricks, the remnants of stars that have collapsed under their own weight. But over the past couple of years, a number of mavericks have proposed that black holes are actually extended bodies, made up of an exotic state of matter that congeals, like a liquid turning to ice, during the collapse. The idea offers a provocative way of thinking about quantum gravity, which would unify Einstein's general theory of relativity with quantum mechanics.

In the textbook picture, the pinprick (or singularity) is surrounded by an event horizon. The horizon is not a physical surface, merely a conceptual one, and although it marks the point of no return for material plummeting toward the singularity, relativity says that nothing special happens there; the laws of physics are the same everywhere. For quantum mechanics, though, the event horizon is deeply paradoxical. It allows information to be lost from our world, an act that quantum theory forbids. "What you have been taught in school is almost certainly wrong, because classical black hole spacetimes are inconsistent with quantum mechanics," says physicist George Chapline of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

The new conceptions of black holes eliminate the event horizon altogether. The basic idea is that there does, in fact, exist a force that could halt the collapse of a star when all else fails. That force is gravity itself. In matter with certain properties, gravity switches from being an attractive force to a repulsive force. Such a material, going by the name "dark energy," is thought to be driving the acceleration of cosmic expansion.

Last year physicists Pawel O. Mazur of the University of South Carolina and Emil Mottola of Los Alamos National Laboratory reasoned that a pocket of the stuff might freeze out, like ice crystals, during the collapse of a star. The result, which they call a gravastar, would look like fried ice cream: a crust of dense but otherwise ordinary matter stabilized by a curious interior. The crust replaces what would have been the event horizon.

Another proposal goes further. It conjectures not only that dark energy would freeze out but that relativity would break down altogether. The idea comes from a dark-horse contender for quantum gravity, the proponents of which are struck by the resemblance between the basic laws of physics and the behavior of fluids and solids (also known as condensed matter). In many ways, the equations of sound propagation through a moving fluid are a dead ringer for general relativity; sound waves can get trapped in the fluid much as light gets trapped in a black hole. Maybe spacetime is literally a kind of fluid.

What makes this approach so interesting is that the behavior of condensed matter is collective. The details of individual molecules hardly matter; the system's properties emerge from the act of aggregation. When water freezes, the molecules do not change, but the collective behavior does, and the laws that apply to liquids no longer do. Under the right conditions, a fluid can turn into a superfluid, governed by quantum mechanics even on macroscopic scales. Chapline, along with physicists Evan Hohlfeld, Robert B. Laughlin and David I. Santiago of Stanford University, has proposed that a similar process happens at event horizons. The equations of relativity fail, and new laws emerge. "If one thinks of spacetime as a superfluid, then it is very natural that in fact something physical does happen at the event horizon--that is, the classical event horizon is replaced by a quantum phase transition," Chapline says.

For now, these ideas are barely more than scribbles on the back of an envelope, and critics have myriad complaints about their plausibility. For example, how exactly would matter or spacetime change state during the collapse of a star? Physicist Scott A. Hughes of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology says, "I don't see how something like a massive star--an object made out of normal fluid, with fairly simple density and pressure relations--can make a transition into something with as bizarre a structure as a gravastar." Mainstream theories of quantum gravity are far better developed. String theory, for one, appears to explain away the paradoxes of black holes without abandoning either event horizons or relativity.

Observationally, the new conceptions of black holes could be hard to distinguish from the classical picture--but not impossible. Gravitational waves should reveal the shape of spacetime around putative black holes. A classical hole, being a simple object without a true surface, has only a couple of possible shapes. If one of the gravitational-wave observatories now going into operation finds a different shape, then the current theories of physics would be yet another thing in the universe to get torn to shreds by a black hole.
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Post by SPOOFE »

I notice in the first article that Chapline cites Einstein's never believing in black holes but being unable to articulate why. Could it be that at the beginning of the century, there was still some superstition in science? There was a widespread belief that the "heavens" were perfect, that the universe was perfect and elegant and all this and that. Einstein didn't "believe" in black holes because they seemed so INelegant and IMperfect. He didn't like the aesthetics. It didn't have anything to do with scientific observation.
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Post by VT-16 »

That´s true, Einstein really had problems with theories that didn´t conform to his "perfectly designed" universe. "God doesn´t play dice" and all that.
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Post by kheegster »

Dark energy is a name for the term in the Friedmann equation which causes the acceleration of the expansion of the universe. Black holes are gravitationally attractive, so how 'dark energy stars' can be related to black holes isn't clear from the article.

Electron-positron annihilation usually emits energies in the hard X-rays or gamma-ray spectrum, whereas the object in Sag A* isn't a strong emitter in those wavelengths.

I say April Fools' joke.
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Post by kheegster »

I just did a quick abstract search for George Chapline. He does exist, and does work on the interface on quantum mech and general relativity, but I see no references to articles relating black holes to dark energy.
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Post by SPOOFE »

I say April Fools' joke.
The only reason I hadn't made the same conclusion is because there's long been a "movement" (or even several movements?) to "reclassify" the objects identified as black holes. I remember one suggested, alternate theory of "gravistars"... as described by the "theory", they were pretty much exactly what black holes are theorized to be, except... they're called "gravistars" and not "black holes".

Some people just want to do ANYTHING to get their name out there.
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Post by SPOOFE »

That´s true, Einstein really had problems with theories that didn´t conform to his "perfectly designed" universe. "God doesn´t play dice" and all that.
"Einstein, stop telling God what to do!" :D

Forgot who said that to him, though.
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Post by kheegster »

SPOOFE wrote:
That´s true, Einstein really had problems with theories that didn´t conform to his "perfectly designed" universe. "God doesn´t play dice" and all that.
"Einstein, stop telling God what to do!" :D

Forgot who said that to him, though.
Uhh...my nick? :D
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Post by Prozac the Robert »

SPOOFE wrote:I notice in the first article that Chapline cites Einstein's never believing in black holes but being unable to articulate why. Could it be that at the beginning of the century, there was still some superstition in science? There was a widespread belief that the "heavens" were perfect, that the universe was perfect and elegant and all this and that. Einstein didn't "believe" in black holes because they seemed so INelegant and IMperfect. He didn't like the aesthetics. It didn't have anything to do with scientific observation.
I'm not sure I'd call it superstition, (not that I would rule out superstition in science now mind), but rather intuition.

Physical intuition is important to a scientist. It guids you towards ideas that are likely to make physical sense, rather than just accepting any old piece of maths. The thing is, it has to be trained. Someone who has worked on quantum mechanics for a long time is likely to be able to guess what would happen in a lot of QM situations, without having any innate advantage in intuition that you or I.

So Einstein's problem was that he rejected QM simply because its ideas didn't make sense to him, but remember that his wonderful intuition about what might work also led him to general relativity. So about some things he had great intuition, and others he had much less.

So whether Einstein believed in black holes may or may not give you any indication of whether they exist.
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Post by SPOOFE »

Uhh...my nick?
Holy crap! I don't even read sigs. What an amusing coincidence.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

SPOOFE wrote:
I say April Fools' joke.
The only reason I hadn't made the same conclusion is because there's long been a "movement" (or even several movements?) to "reclassify" the objects identified as black holes. I remember one suggested, alternate theory of "gravistars"... as described by the "theory", they were pretty much exactly what black holes are theorized to be, except... they're called "gravistars" and not "black holes".

Some people just want to do ANYTHING to get their name out there.
:roll:

Gravastars are highly different in terms of mechanics and behavior and content from the "classical" black hole. Stop bluffing your way through shit.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Cosmology is not my specialty; what are gravastars supposed to be?
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Darth Wong wrote:Cosmology is not my specialty; what are gravastars supposed to be?
They're basicly like black holes in terms of their insanely powerful gravity, but the collapsed matter in a gravastar is somehow formed into a hollow spherical shell rather than a solid "pinpoint" mass like a black hole...

Here is an article I saw 2 years ago where I first learned of the Gravastar theory...
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Post by Thinkmarble »

A vakuum with an state equotation P=-density surrounded by a thin shell of matter.


Stable Gravastars
Discussing the stability of gravastars

Gravitational vacuum stars

The paper originally introducing the concept.

I have not worked trough them yet, just browsed a little.
Looks interesting, but hail the orthodoxy :).
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Darth Wong wrote:Cosmology is not my specialty; what are gravastars supposed to be?
Wiki wrote:n astrophysics, the Gravastar theory is a proposal by Emil Mottola and Pawel Mazur to replace the black hole. Instead of a star collapsing into a pinpoint of space with virtually infinite gravity, the gravastar theory proposes that as an object gravitationally collapses, space itself undergoes a phase transition preventing further collapse, being transformed into a spherical void surrounded by a form of super-dense matter.

The theory is a newcomer to the field which has generated little interest among astrophysicists. It was the topic of a conference proceeding, but has not been the topic of any scientific paper. The lack of interest comes from the fact that the concept requires one to accept a very speculative theory of quantum gravity yet provides no real benefit over black holes. Furthermore, there is no theoretical reason from quantum gravity that space should behave in the way that Mottola and Mazur assume.

The gravastar's name origin is simply: GRAvitational VAcuum STAR.

Mottola and Mazur have suggested that gravastars would be the solution for the black hole information paradox: the tremendous amounts of entropy that a black hole is said to have (a black hole apparently has a billion, billion times more entropy than the star it formed from) cannot yet be explained; there does not seem to be anywhere inside a black hole where such entropy would exist. The Gravastar is theorized to have very low amounts of entropy, thereby eliminating the need to answer the question.

The violent creation of a gravastar might be an alternate explanation for gamma ray bursts, adding yet one more speculative possibility to the dozens if not hundreds of ideas that have been proposed as the cause of GRB's.

However, the consensus among astrophysicists is that there are much less radical and speculative ways of resolving both issues.

A problem with the theory over the creation of a gravastar is whether or not a star would be capable of shedding enough entropy upon implosion.

Externally, a gravastar appears similar to a black hole: it is visible only by the high-energy emissions it creates while consuming matter. Astronomers observe the sky for X-rays emitted by infalling matter to detect black holes, and a gravastar would produce an identical signature.

Inside a gravastar, space-time would be "totally warped" by the extreme conditions there and the inner space would exert an outward force, like dark energy. Around this void would be a "bubble" of incredibly dense and durable matter. The phase of this matter is theorized to be similar to an extreme form of Bose-Einstein condensate in which all matter (protons, neutrons, electrons, etc.) goes into what is called a quantum state creating a "super-atom".

According to the theorizers Emil Mottola and Pawel Mazur the universe itself could very well be the inside of a giant gravastar.[/url]

I think one should have a bit more personal education and work in physics before openly accusing theoretical physicists of just trying to get their name noticed. As one can see, the mechanics and dynamics inside a gravastar would be different from that within a classical black hole, and moreover, a gravastar could potentially resolve this information problem. Simply claiming that it is identical and the physicists are attention whores is ignorant posturing.
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Post by Lancer »

could somebody fix the tag on that? It opens with a quote tag but closes with a url.
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Post by kheegster »

Thinkmarble wrote:A vakuum with an state equotation P=-density surrounded by a thin shell of matter.


Stable Gravastars
Discussing the stability of gravastars

Gravitational vacuum stars

The paper originally introducing the concept.

I have not worked trough them yet, just browsed a little.
Looks interesting, but hail the orthodoxy :).
I didn't look at the links, but P = -density is one of the definitions for dark energy.
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Post by Crossroads Inc. »

First off, forgive me for not reading through the WHOLE thread first before posting this, as it may have already been said...

But the problem with "BlackHoles" being the missing Dark Matter, is that if you lumped all the Blackholes in the universe together, it would come CLOSE to the amount of missing Mater that DarkMater is supposed to make up.
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Post by Thinkmarble »

kheegan wrote: I didn't look at the links, but P = -density is one of the definitions for dark energy.
Personally I prefer the expression vacuum energy, but yes.
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Post by SPOOFE »

Gravastars are highly different in terms of mechanics and behavior and content from the "classical" black hole. Stop bluffing your way through shit.
Ooh, it's game time! Was SPOOFE "bluffing" OR... was he simply giving a very brief, simplified account of the alternate theory, sufficient enough only to relate to the topic at hand?

Judges?

::drumroll::

It looks like the latter option! Yay! You're a winner!

Lay off the coke, son.
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