The new ST V SW at startrek.com

[Darth Servo]

I think I'll give it a go, though you are more than welcome to show him what a moron he is

I've been doing that for over a year. It hasn't put one dent in his stubborness.

[Darth Servo]

In any event, I think I'll rip this turd apart here, just for the fun of it.

I think that the Borg would become Force Users, if they assimlilated a Force User! According to Qui-Gon Jinn and OB1 the Force is everywhere, and in everything.

True. All living things anyway.

Now, if the Borg got a hold of a Jedi/Sith then all of thier knowledge would be transfered throughout the ENTIRE collective.

Not true. Hugh's individuality didn't spread through the entire collective. 7 of 9 stated that drones get what ever info the queen feels they need.

Voy: "The Omega Directive"
KIM: "I was Borg". That's what you always say, but what does it mean? You've got the knowledge of ten thousand species in your head?

7 OF 9: Not exactly. Each drone's experiences are processed by the collective. Only useful information is retained.

Mike Wong: The Borg: apparently, the Borg Collective uses its vast intelligence (the same intelligence which left them clueless about new tactics after five months of fighting Species 8472 even tough Voyager's Holo-Doc figures it out in a few hours) to determine what knowledge is useful. In other words, it's probably pretty much random


And given the speed we saw Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run in TPM, compared with the slow prodding drones, the chances of the collective capturing a Jedi or Sith Lord is somewhere around the chances of me winning the lottery tomorrow or Mike Wong becomming a fundamentalist.

That means any and all knowledge of he Force that, that particular Jedi had would be shared.

There is more to the Force than just knowing about it. It heavily relies on instinct, something the collective is severely lacking.

Since the Midi-C's are in the Borg already, all they would need is the knowledge of the Force and how to use it, and by assimilating a Jedi/Sith that would fill inthe missing link they need!

He commits the false cause fallacy that Midichlorians actually cause the force. In reality, all we know is there is a correlation between the two and a correlation is not a cause. Hight M-C counts could cause force ability or they could be caused BY it or a third unrevealed factor could cause both.

Sadly this is typical of the simple minded analysis we've come to expect from Trektards. They take ONE piece of evidence and extrapolate it out to fit thier needs and ignore or try and concoct frivilous explanations for all the other evidence that proves thier pet theory incorrect.

[Darth Servo]

I see his next argument is an appeal to ignorance fallacy and a roundless assumption that assimilating a Vulcan is just as difficult as assimilating someone who can control other people.

Sothis, you're welcome to use any information I post here in this thread. BTW, you made a good start with the force being highly emotionally linked. Go with it and point out the borg have no emotions.

[Mange]

I was under the assumption that DMJ had been banned? Can't they perform IP checks there? And TJHairball is still pushing his case about the Endor battle? He isn't blind, is he? Shove those quotes from the DVD commentary from the person that conceived the Endor battle in his freakin' face.

[Nick Lancaster]

I was under the assumption that DMJ had been banned? Can't they perform IP checks there? And TJHairball is still pushing his case about the Endor battle? He isn't blind, is he? Shove those quotes from the DVD commentary from the person that conceived the Endor battle in his freakin' face.

This is presuming there's sufficient staff to moderate the boards, and not just two or three people who are more concerned with pumping content into the site than babysitting idiots like DMJ.

Standard practice* from said idiots is to threaten the staff when they do issue warnings and/or bans. Excuses include, 'my cat jumped on the keyboard,' 'it was my little brother,' 'someone stole my password,' and other asshattery.

[Glimmervoid]

I was under the assumption that DMJ had been banned? Can't they perform IP checks there? And TJHairball is still pushing his case about the Endor battle? He isn't blind, is he? Shove those quotes from the DVD commentary from the person that conceived the Endor battle in his freakin' face.

Yep he is on his 3rd acont now.

[Darth Servo]

I was under the assumption that DMJ had been banned? Can't they perform IP checks there? And TJHairball is still pushing his case about the Endor battle? He isn't blind, is he? Shove those quotes from the DVD commentary from the person that conceived the Endor battle in his freakin' face.

Yep he is on his 3rd acont now.

First it was DMJay. Then DMJII. Now its DMJ2

[Darth Lucifer]

<snip>
I say death to Wong (who is never wite)

Oh lord, now he's gone from mental retardation into possible sheep territory.

[Darth Servo]

<snip>
I say death to Wong (who is never wite)

Oh lord, now he's gone from mental retardation into possible sheep territory.

Was this on startrek.com?

[Glimmervoid]

<snip>
I say death to Wong (who is never wite)

Oh lord, now he's gone from mental retardation into possible sheep territory.

Was this on startrek.com?

Yes

[Darth Servo]

The idiot hairball is at it again.

Ad hominem attacks and insults are NOT the same thing. Ad hominem attacks are used to AVOID the argument. And since I dealt with every point you made, I did NOT commit an adhominem attack.

To make an argument ad hominem is, very literally and originally, an "appeal to the person." An ad hominem attack is, in modern usage, an attack "upon the person." You make them constantly. Whether or not additional argument is made doesn't detract in the slightest from the well established fact of the ad hominem attack being made.

Oh yes. You're doing a WONDERFUL job of dropping the irrelevant part of the discussion. :eyesroll:

As I mentioned, I decided to join you in digressing; I, however, have not been hypocritically complaining about it. You're welcome.

My apologies, but cinematic tradition is that evil people usually tell the truth when they're gloating to helpless captives.

Cinematic tradition is not canon. And Lucas has shown more than once that he's willing to buck those tradition like not having opening credits.

And yet, in terms of actual material, he recycles most of his archetypes from the classics and has them act accordingly. The "cinematic tradition" I reference is one that Lucas has hardly been bucking... and, of course, we actually see the troops on the ground.

To piss Luke off.

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

And if he were telling the truth (not yet knowing the precise details of Luke's training, not necessarily knowing if he has means of verifying independently through Jedi techniques) it would be even more effective.

And with a battle station a hundred miles wide in orbit, you'd think that a legion would be available to spare.

Two still counts as "dozens" but by all means, post a screen shot of these hordes of troops you keep alluding to (but won't list any hard numbers for).

Do you not like the script? You've seen pictures before. I recommend you check the scene where Leia et al are led out of the Imperial compound.

And that armor support on screen was a measly four AT-STs. Dispite what your idiot dark master believes, those things are NOT Imperial heavy armor. You can tell just by LOOKING at them that they are LIGHTLY armored vehicles.

Four AT-STs? In which case Chewie couldn't have hunted down AT-ST after AT-ST, since the Ewoks accounted for at least two on screen before he hijacked one. Examine your argument for consistency.

A horde of waist high animals that EASILY out-classed humans in strength.

Did you really think about that sentence? First... we don't know that they outclass a fit soldier in strength. Second... individual physical strength is how relevant to a competent modern army?

My counts come from canon novelization which describes dozens of ewoks ambushing each small party (2-5) of stormtroopers.

Each? According to the script, one band of 6 troopers was ambushed by a small band of Ewoks. Note that a successful Ewok ambush may then proceed to ambush many more Imperial squads, as - in such ambushes, as seen onscreen - the Ewoks don't suffer very high casualties.

This also refers to the periphery (and later phases) of the battle; the central hordes seen at the start didn't involve most of the stormtroopers dispersing immediately.

Then post a screen shot of these "hundred" troops instead of you NON-canon sugestion.

What, the "canon" script isn't good enough for you?

The film overrides the script and it clearly does NOT show "hundreds" of troops in that scene.

And how many Ewoks do you count on screen?

How many troopers do you count on screen?

If you would like to override the script and novel, I would remind you that (incidentally) not necessarily all Ewoks or Stormtroopers (or AT-STs, or speederbikes) are necessarily shown at the same time.

Donsidering that this was ONE engagement out of several dozen, with "dozens" of ewoks...do the math.

See above. Ewok soldiers should have no trouble making another ambush after one successful one.

Not my fault you can't multiply.

Baseless claims again, Darth?

From a description that is directly contradicted by the film.

If you care to back up this claim, you're welcome to.

It proves that there were more casualties than were shown in the film.

Just as there may be more Ewoks, STs, AT-STs, etc than shown? Of course.

When a squad of 2-3 is ambushed by dozens, that constitutes outnumbered. Heavily.

When a squad of 6 is ambushed by a dozen and a half Ewoks, which then goes on to ambush a half dozen more squads of 3-6, it's not being outnumbered in the whole battle; it's being outmaneuvered by an opponent with better jungle navigation skills.

You didn't see Chewie hanging out with the Ewoks during the battle? You didn't see R-2 and 3PO with the Ewoks until called to the bunker? Thats at least three out of a dozen.

At least three out of how many Ewoks? Two of which are droids, and the third of which looks something like a giant Ewok himself?

Would YOU leave POWs in your most valuable location where an escape would allow them to blow the shield?

I'd stick them in a brig, where I can keep them from escaping. I'd take them outside to shoot them, of course, because that would make a mess on my carpet.

The Ewoks were CONSTANTLY on the run until that moment. You call that a stalemate?

You mean wisely luring troopers and walkers into traps and ambushes? It was working very well.

I don't call it a stalemate. I call it a hairy furball which was not going well for the Imps.

And then running for their lives.

So?

AFTER Chewie hijacked the walker. Nice red herring.

That's funny, but according to the script - and what I remember, and what everybody else who's talked about it seem to remember - the two walkers downed by Ewok traps onscreen did so before Chewie jacked one.

No he doesn't. He goes and SHOOTS another walker. Chewie's walker doesn't get to the bunker until the battle is OVER.

So you're saying the Imperials were annihilated in the jungle that quickly? Even considering how well the Ewoks know the jungle and how incompetent stormtroopers have been known to act, that's pretty astonishing.

And previously you said he was pegging "walker after walker." Now it's just one?

right. I guess I was just imagining all those Ewoks scattering into the woods.

I see you aren't familiar with military history. Strategic withdrawal.

I had one in the very post you're responding to. Even without that, I still have more than YOU have.

Mmm? How many I've posted isn't particularly relevant.

And I've seen the pictures that prove it (although there was only one scout that actually went down in that picture).

YOU have no evidence of "large numbers killed with arrows".

For all we can prove from the film, the majority of stormtroopers were stripped of their armor and turned into Ewoks with magic wands.

That we've actually seen the Ewoks using bows - and keep using them - tells us that some did. We've seen the Ewoks using several types of weapons: Rocks, clubs, bows, and possibly stone knives, claws, and teeth. How many are seen to die onscreen... and how many by arrow? And by all means, link this picture of yours.

No evidence.

See above.

OK, so lets see those pictures of stormtroopers being knocked out with small rocks. Oops. You don't have that either.

Did I say they were knocked out with small rocks? No. By all means... show us your rocked stormtroopers and the rocks you say have such momentum they could not fail to take out a stormtrooper whose armor protects him adequately against impact.

I didn't say it WAS the lightest. I just said it was one of the lightER ones. And anyone can look at those rocks and tell they werent' pumice.

Are you so sure?

Limestone has about the same density as granite. It's not particularly light.

AND the mass of the rock. Still no evidence of stormtroopers getting knocked out by those rocks.

Really? Are you saying that the Ewoks tore them all apart with claws, teeth, and clubs, with rocks and arrows having negligible effect?

Please. Most people can't even hurl a 10 lb shot put more than 10 feet.

"Most people" are out of shape. Most male high school students on a track team can get over 10 feet with the 12 lb shot put used in high school competitions. The world record - with the 16 pound shot put used in adult competitions - is over 70 feet.

And that's in Terran normal gravity and atmosphere, which we aren't completely assured of.

They didn't show any signs of slowing down did they?

And how long did you watch any given Ewok in the battle for? A half hour? A minute straight?

And you delve into the personal attacks again. You're just trying to be inflammatory here.

Nice way of evading the point. Your EVASION is an example of an ad hominem fallacy.

"Evading" the point I address right after? Serv, don't be dishonest like that. It's not suitable in front of all the kids on here. It's you who are evading the point. Why say "trektard" if you aren't just trying to be inflammatory?

Hardly. I've used it maybe a dozen times on this board out of over 500 posts.

You've used it yourself in at least 1 out of forty posts made on this board.

And how many times have I used it on you?

Most aren't HALF as long as his.

I see you aren't used to reading academic articles. Darkstar's site is a fairly easy light read. Just to be fair, though, I should go run some length counts on VS sites' articles.

Hello? Anybody home? This was a response to YOUR complaining about my posting a paragraph for one of Darmok's sentences.

To my complaining about your complaining about Darmok dragging things off topic. Keep your points straight.

good advice. Why don't you take it?

Because I don't mind this particular thread going wildly off topic. Everything that needs saying about ST shields, lasers, and turbolasers being or not being completely blocked at any power level by ST shields has been said many times over.

I've seen a video with a line drawn over the path of the bolt. The line definately shifts downward. I'll see if I can dig it up. But not right now. I have a test tomorrow.

I have patience.

And we know proximity explosion can be highly dangerous to Fed ships since they once said that a near torp detonation w/o shields could destroy the E-D.

Without shields. Torpedo. Not the same case as a TL flak burst near shields.

And you evidence for this BS claim is????? The official lit describes it as a giant compound turbolaser. Where is your counter evidence?

Even a "compound" turbolaser may act quite differently. The "superlaser," as it is described, is described as an unusual technology (see Darksaber) and doesn't act much like turbolasers. It doesn't act like much of anything else seen onscreen.

Only if "vaporize" means "make disappear into thin air without any vapor left over" which is what we see every time a phaser "vaporizes" the water in a human being.

And - as I mentioned earlier - complete annihilation is a higher standard of destruction.

Too bad it only seems to work on low density substances like flesh, water, aluminum and light silicates. NOT dense starship armor.

Not starship armor? What, you think phasers are harmless to starship armor?

There are very few materials which display effective resistance to phasers.

There is no "near-complete" about it. The rock was completely vaporized. No fragments left at all. The official literature supports this.

Really?

which would be considered an upper limit while vaping those 40 meter asteroids are a LOWER limit.

Upper limit? No, it's something that they can do. Not something they can't; ergo, it, too, is a lower limit.

And fragmenting energetically smaller-than-40m-asteroids is the lower limit.

With an unknown amount of energy being absorbed by the shields.

Which are, in some cases of ship destruction, down.

Because it's not a red herring to the basic question of "How effective are SW weapons against ST ships?" It has everything to do with the effective firepower.

Thats NOT the question at all. The question was "how much energy is in a bolt?"

No, the above "How effective are SW weapons against ST ships?" is the real question. Check thread topic.

And I NEVER see frequency being mentioned in any of those ridiculous "no laser" arguments. All that seems to matter to them is "its a laser therefore it can't hurt us."

I've mentioned it before. To you. On these forums. See deleted thread, I hope you archived it.

And lasers are in that SAME spectrum.

Not necessarily at all. They can be. (In general, weapons lasers are better off with nice high destructive frequencies, though.)

Again, there is ZERO canon evidence that this is how they work.

Except for onscreen references to gravitons with regard to shielding.

You're talking about black hole level gravity fields here to warp light around the ship. If they deflected lasers with gravity, they would work far BETTER against matter than light. But this is NOT what we see on the show. The colliding ship either bounces off the shields or blows both ships up.

Either bounces off the shields (which means that, as you just claimed they ought, they worked) or didn't. Now... how many times do you see unshielded ships ram shielded ships?

Infinite is EXACTLY what they mean. They even use the word "immune". You even said so yourself--its "independent of the number of photons involved"

Independent of the number, yes. But the number of photons involved isn't truly independent of everything else. It's simply not possible to get together infinite photons; very large quantities, yes, but not actually infinite photons.

forgive me for not having memorized the several HUNDRED hours of televised Trek. Post the relevant information.

As I've mentioned (to you, on this forum) before not long ago, the Enterprise's shields are taken down in 20% intervals by 5 bolts, each of which has the energy of ninety photorps.

OK, fine. Go watch the ROTS trailer which shows far MORE.

Of a different type from a different ship, quiaff?

yes it IS independent of frequency. A gravitational field DOES NOT HAVE A FREQUENCY. It effects ALL light regardless of frequancy. A red beam is bent just like a violet beam.

Actually, a gravitationally field artificially generated may have a frequency, wavelength, or other geometric/temporal effects that would interact with EM waves differently.

Direct contradiction in that Fed ships are NOT invisible. Direct contradiction in that Fed shields are far MORE effective against EM radiation than matter even though its the exact OPPOSITE for ravitational fields.

Actually, ST ships are quite effective against matter vs EM radiation... and, as I mentioned, we don't know the devils in the details.

Thus proving you are a frequency w@nker who knows NOTHING about real gravity and light. But I suppose I shoultn'd be surprised. This is the same person who thinks being transparent means having an operating frequency. You've been watching far too much Trek.

I see you have failed to understand what I said, and are not familiar with optics. That frequency windows are present in Trek shields is established quite well in the canon; that this could be present in a system deflecting light through gravitation is possible. Strange, and we cannot come up with a mechanism for producing the particular field function in question, but that's the way it is.

Being transparent means having frequencies of EM radiation you do not block, i.e., frequency windows. Very simple.

]I've been debating consistantly. I've refuted every one of your points. I throw in the occastional insult for the entertainment of the readers.

Dealt with? Hardly. Refuted? Hardly. Occasional? You put plenty into each post.

[Nick Lancaster]

The Ewoks run away because they don't have Magic Phaser-Deflecting TrekCrates to hide behind.

[Mange]

I was under the assumption that DMJ had been banned? Can't they perform IP checks there? And TJHairball is still pushing his case about the Endor battle? He isn't blind, is he? Shove those quotes from the DVD commentary from the person that conceived the Endor battle in his freakin' face.

This is presuming there's sufficient staff to moderate the boards, and not just two or three people who are more concerned with pumping content into the site than babysitting idiots like DMJ.

Standard practice* from said idiots is to threaten the staff when they do issue warnings and/or bans. Excuses include, 'my cat jumped on the keyboard,' 'it was my little brother,' 'someone stole my password,' and other asshattery.

It seems as if DMJ was banned again, as he's now DMJ3.

[Darth Servo]

It seems as if DMJ was banned again, as he's now DMJ3.

Thats funny. I haven't even been there in over a week. If he can't tell him that OTHER people are sick of his bullshit, he really is as stupid as he looks.

[Mange]

It seems as if DMJ was banned again, as he's now DMJ3.

Thats funny. I haven't even been there in over a week. If he can't tell him that OTHER people are sick of his bullshit, he really is as stupid as he looks.

Yeah, it seems as if they're only trekkies in that thread now.

[Darth Lucifer]

It seems as if DMJ was banned again, as he's now DMJ3.

He claims to have lost his password and forgot which e-mail account he had it set up to. Just like Mr. Lancaster forecasted.

[Mange]

It seems as if DMJ was banned again, as he's now DMJ3.

He claims to have lost his password and forgot which e-mail account he had it set up to. Just like Mr. Lancaster forecasted.

LOL! That's the worst excuse ever (especially as there's a password recovery available on that board, as there usually is).

[Darth Servo]

It seems as if DMJ was banned again, as he's now DMJ3.

He claims to have lost his password and forgot which e-mail account he had it set up to. Just like Mr. Lancaster forecasted.

LOL! That's the worst excuse ever (especially as there's a password recovery available on that board, as there usually is).

DMJ is every bit as dishonest as everyone's favorite Rabid Stupid Asshole. His arguments would get shot down, he'd change the subject and then later repost the same old crap he'd originally posted, ignoring all our rebuttals and then act like WE couldn't touch his "awsomely truthful wonderful arguments". The ONLY way he could ever take on anything I posted was to massively distort it. Example: I posted that Picard could tell that the ships in Outrageous Okona were too primitive and small to be a threat. He responded to that by trying to make it look like I thought any smaller ship wasn't a threat to a larger one. And we all know about the crap he tried to pull with his alleged military service. And after all this, he has the gall to claim he has never lied. Well, thats how most liars act, so I suppose we shouldn't be surprised.

[Darth Servo]

It seems as if DMJ was banned again, as he's now DMJ3.

Thats funny. I haven't even been there in over a week. If he can't tell him that OTHER people are sick of his bullshit, he really is as stupid as he looks.

Yeah, it seems as if they're only trekkies in that thread now.

I'm guessing the technowanking is reaching an all time high?

[Darth Lucifer]

you pa-taks, well i guess im the only one going to stovokore... the last true warrior, darmok and jilad at tanagra... they shall wright many a song about my greatness... and your children, and your childrens childrens will have to sing it in school, they shall put my likeness on all currency, and build me a shrine larger than the average applebee's....

Looks like they're doing the victory dance over there. Fags.

[Darth Servo]

Looks like they're doing the victory dance over there. Fags.

Now, now, don't use that word. Several members of this board are homosexuals and that word is not acceptable.

Besides, the idiots over at StarTrek.com wouldn't even qualify as gay anyway. You need a partner. All the affection they can get is from their right hands.

[Darth Lucifer]

Looks like they're doing the victory dance over there. Fags.

Now, now, don't use that word. Several members of this board are homosexuals and that word is not acceptable.

Besides, the idiots over at StarTrek.com wouldn't even qualify as gay anyway. You need a partner. All the affection they can get is from their right hands.

Didn't mean it like that. Apologies and a retraction go out before a flamewar/thread hijack results. Thx for the check, DS.

[Vympel]

Servo, did you respond to hairball's latest arguments? It's pretty obvious he's making massive factual distortions- see for example his claim that AT-STs succumbed to Ewok traps before and not after Chewie stole one. No one whose actually seen RotJ could possibly claim that.

[Nick Lancaster]

you pa-taks, well i guess im the only one going to stovokore... the last true warrior, darmok and jilad at tanagra... they shall wright many a song about my greatness... and your children, and your childrens childrens will have to sing it in school, they shall put my likeness on all currency, and build me a shrine larger than the average applebee's....

Looks like they're doing the victory dance over there.

If he's the only one left, he should consider the possibility that the bus to Sto-vo-kor left while he was farting around the parking lot. It's been known to happen.

People who can't spell Sto-vo-kor don't get in. If you're going to insult someone in Klingonese, do it right, not in some bastardized Romanization. (Which is what phonetic translation to English is referred to, we're not talking about the Romulans.)

People who can't capitalize the proper names, 'Darmok,' 'Jalad,' and 'Tanagra' are really too stupid to live. Someone else will have to write the song, if only because this idiot can't write right at all.

Hopefully, this bozo's clan sings better than they write.

[Darth Lucifer]

He's not the only one left...DMJ is still there (DMJ3, his fourth username now), as well as Wishfire, the originator of the Shileds and weapons thread. Random dweebs spam the forum also..."Well, I think that Star Trek would beat Star Wars because <insert random trek fanwank spooge.>"

I've also been popping in and out every once in a while, but at this point I have nothing to say. No one can get through to them except if they post something like "OMFGLOL!!!! S7@r 7r3|< pwns 73h 3mpir3!!1!!11 oneshiftwun11!!oneeleven!!11!!!!" Or regurgitating the Dr. Evil "LASER" argument. At least Wishfire isn't stupid enough to buy into that crap.