Species 8472

[TheDarkling]

*sigh* They didnt know Voyager was alone in the quadrant since 8472-Boothby asks Janeway how many SF ships are in the delta quad - so either they didnt know Voyager was alone or they though the Borg (or SF had the ability on its own) were helping SF move about.

If you were 8472 what would you assume? This little ship is all alone and the nearest help is 70 years away OR this ship appears and sems to have a pact with the Borg - their main empire must be around here somewhere.

To reiterate - They didnt know Voyager was alone, they didnt know anything about SF, they didnt know the situation between SF/Voyager and the Borg - frankly they knew jack, seems to me they need intel - well shucks that could explain why they switched to intel gathering

[Master of Ossus]

[groan] You know that a single ship can destroy several of your vessels, and you fear a vast enemy empire nearby, so you choose to ignore the only vessel you KNOW to be potentially harmful while simultaneously NOT suing for peace, opening negotiations, etc.? They are either stupid or cowardly or both.

[TheDarkling]

Yes but why would you assume it was the only ship with the weapon? and even then you wouldnt assume it hadnt been sending back regular reports to HQ.

They didnt sue for peace but they did gather intel and evenually went for an unofficial peace accord.

Its not like they sat on their hands in under a year they were ready to infiltrate SF - thats some quick planning and implementation.

[Master of Ossus]

Yes but why would you assume it was the only ship with the weapon? and even then you wouldnt assume it hadnt been sending back regular reports to HQ.

They didnt sue for peace but they did gather intel and evenually went for an unofficial peace accord.

Its not like they sat on their hands in under a year they were ready to infiltrate SF - thats some quick planning and implementation.

Watch this.

If it IS the only ship, then following it is obviously the right call, even if you cannot destroy it. You want to know where it's heading, so you can warn bases of potential attacks, evacuate planets, be ready to gather defensive fleets, etc. You want to study it extensively, getting more information on its weapons and other capabilities, and getting some understanding of its behavior. Clearly, shadowing it with a small ship, or a small group of small ships, is the right course of action. You may not want to engage it, but shadowing it is clearly the best move.

If it is NOT the only ship, and there are many others, you STILL should be shadowing it in a similar manner. Then you can do anything you could do above, AND, if the ship should head for home, you will be able to learn where their territory is. You will be able to gain some knowledge of their fleet strength, their size, and potentially of their societal capabilities.

Regardless of which assumption you make, you NEED TO FOLLOW THE THING. There's absolutely no reason not to, if you actually have a fleet as large as cultists claim. The fact that Species 8472 did not shadow Voyager demonstrates either incredible stupidity on the part of their fleet commander, or extreme cowardice.

[Alyeska]

Yes but why would you assume it was the only ship with the weapon? and even then you wouldnt assume it hadnt been sending back regular reports to HQ.

They didnt sue for peace but they did gather intel and evenually went for an unofficial peace accord.

Its not like they sat on their hands in under a year they were ready to infiltrate SF - thats some quick planning and implementation.

Watch this.

If it IS the only ship, then following it is obviously the right call, even if you cannot destroy it. You want to know where it's heading, so you can warn bases of potential attacks, evacuate planets, be ready to gather defensive fleets, etc. You want to study it extensively, getting more information on its weapons and other capabilities, and getting some understanding of its behavior. Clearly, shadowing it with a small ship, or a small group of small ships, is the right course of action. You may not want to engage it, but shadowing it is clearly the best move.

If it is NOT the only ship, and there are many others, you STILL should be shadowing it in a similar manner. Then you can do anything you could do above, AND, if the ship should head for home, you will be able to learn where their territory is. You will be able to gain some knowledge of their fleet strength, their size, and potentially of their societal capabilities.

Regardless of which assumption you make, you NEED TO FOLLOW THE THING. There's absolutely no reason not to, if you actually have a fleet as large as cultists claim. The fact that Species 8472 did not shadow Voyager demonstrates either incredible stupidity on the part of their fleet commander, or extreme cowardice.

Maybe they DID Shadow Voyager. How might they have gotten all that data about the Federation? Or maybe they stole it from the Borg. In either case we know they never really ran away because they started an inteligence program.

[Typhonis 1]

And like I said before 8472 will see a fight between the Federation and the Empire as a human civil war

[Master of Ossus]

Maybe they DID Shadow Voyager. How might they have gotten all that data about the Federation? Or maybe they stole it from the Borg. In either case we know they never really ran away because they started an inteligence program.

Oh, of course, they shadowed VOY to the point where they could gain reliable intelligence on the ship without alerting the Borg that were tasked with protecting it. This makes perfect sense.

[Alyeska]

Maybe they DID Shadow Voyager. How might they have gotten all that data about the Federation? Or maybe they stole it from the Borg. In either case we know they never really ran away because they started an inteligence program.

Oh, of course, they shadowed VOY to the point where they could gain reliable intelligence on the ship without alerting the Borg that were tasked with protecting it. This makes perfect sense.

You claim they should shadow Voyager because of the weapons it had on board. Now you claim that S8472 wouldn't have shadowed Voyager because the Borg were protecting it?

Brilliant logic. You say they are bad because they didn't shadow voyager, then when I point out its possible you claim it was stupid to shadow them.

[XaLEv]

I think someone needs to inform Beef of the details of Paramount's canon policy.

[Crown]

I think someone needs to inform Beef of the details of Paramount's canon policy.

<Yoda>I agree</Yoda>

But will he listen?

[XaLEv]

I think someone needs to inform Beef of the details of Paramount's canon policy.

<Yoda>I agree</Yoda>

But will he listen?

Doubt it. But it's worth a try. And it could have an effect on those who are observing the debate, even if it does nothing to Beef.

[Crown]

Very true. I guess that should be our main aim, educating the fence sitters!

[SirNitram]

Since the Pro-Trek debators refuse to acknowledge even the chance the Species could be cowardly, I ask them to please offer evidence the Species would not turn tail and flee from Star Destroyers which can cause losses just as heavily as Voyager's technobabble, and which truly are implemented on many, many ships.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: Who said they wouldnt run from a few ISD's if they were taking them out left, right and center??? I am simply showing that they wont run off if someone puts a dent in one of their ships which is what warsies always claim.

Its funny that you paint the pro trek debators in absolutes when in truth its the warsies dealing in them here - I havent seen anyone claim 8472 will send ship after ship to their deaths in fact we have shown they would gather intel and come up with a plan rather than the suicide you would have commited in their situation (from their POV).

MOO: Instead of shaowing Voyager they got alot more info and wsere almost ready to head for Federation space - they gathered the intel they would have from following Voyager and much more but I am glad you agree that Intel gathering was needed.

I cant wait till you tell me the fact that 8472 dont eat at Mc Donalds display absolute cowerdice or stupidity , sinc eeverything 8472 must be motivated by one of these two things.

[Lord of the Farce]

If one little ship could take out many of theirs, while they still wiped the floor with everything else, then wouldn't the most logical course of action be to make sure that what the one little ship can do won't spread to everything else at any cost?

Considering some of the arguements about why they ran away at that stage in the first place, to plan an attack later (when what the single ship can do would have spread to everything else) would have probably been the worst thing they could have done.

[TheDarkling]

They Did Not Know Voyager Was Alone in a)having the tech or B)the only SF ship in the area.

[Vympel]

They Did Not Know Voyager Was Alone in a)having the tech or B)the only SF ship in the area.

I know nothing about this stuff but ... I heard that they can recreate every aspect of the crew's memories etc in a fancy schmancy simulation (I've seen like 2 voy episodes ...) ... how can they NOT know that Voyager is alone?

[Ghost Rider]

Actually if they can somehow access minds or was shadowing...you think after a fucking week they would've realized this ship is alone.

I mean are you saying that the writers intenionally gave no powers of observation to a single rac and suddenly they are dumber than most.

I mean this is truly bordering upon...

"Yes we gave 8472 no powers of observation, the backbone that rats have and the intelligence of a dung beetle but hey they can destroy planets!"

Though given that this is B&B...that might be sound logic.

[NecronLord]

Imagine it like this.

The ISD's are running rampant squashing borg left right and center. Then a SF ship appears, blows the crap out of twenty ISDs. You think the Empire wouldn't do the same thing

[Vympel]

Imagine it like this.

The ISD's are running rampant squashing borg left right and center. Then a SF ship appears, blows the crap out of twenty ISDs. You think the Empire wouldn't do the same thing

What, run off and never come back?

[Ghost Rider]

Only if they lacked brains...personally the Empire would run , investigate with the full extent of the resources at the time, and find out how to kill the thing.

No strategic reason to let such a powerful enemy go unnoticed and remain a mystery.

[NecronLord]

Imagine it like this.

The ISD's are running rampant squashing borg left right and center. Then a SF ship appears, blows the crap out of twenty ISDs. You think the Empire wouldn't do the same thing

What, run off and never come back?

They do come back. "Dark Froniter" however VOY is out of borg space when they do.

[Master of Ossus]

Maybe they DID Shadow Voyager. How might they have gotten all that data about the Federation? Or maybe they stole it from the Borg. In either case we know they never really ran away because they started an inteligence program.

Oh, of course, they shadowed VOY to the point where they could gain reliable intelligence on the ship without alerting the Borg that were tasked with protecting it. This makes perfect sense.

You claim they should shadow Voyager because of the weapons it had on board. Now you claim that S8472 wouldn't have shadowed Voyager because the Borg were protecting it?

Brilliant logic. You say they are bad because they didn't shadow voyager, then when I point out its possible you claim it was stupid to shadow them.

Idiot, I was pointing out that if they had shadowed VOY, then the Borg should have engaged their ships. Borg ships are of no threat to Species-8472. Clearly Species 8472 is either incompetent or cowardly. It would have been smart to shadow VOY, but it also would have been impossible for them to do so without alerting the Borg vessels.

[Master of Ossus]

SirNitram: Who said they wouldnt run from a few ISD's if they were taking them out left, right and center??? I am simply showing that they wont run off if someone puts a dent in one of their ships which is what warsies always claim.

Its funny that you paint the pro trek debators in absolutes when in truth its the warsies dealing in them here - I havent seen anyone claim 8472 will send ship after ship to their deaths in fact we have shown they would gather intel and come up with a plan rather than the suicide you would have commited in their situation (from their POV).

MOO: Instead of shaowing Voyager they got alot more info and wsere almost ready to head for Federation space - they gathered the intel they would have from following Voyager and much more but I am glad you agree that Intel gathering was needed.

I cant wait till you tell me the fact that 8472 dont eat at Mc Donalds display absolute cowerdice or stupidity , sinc eeverything 8472 must be motivated by one of these two things.

I'm not saying that everything they do is motivated by cowardice or stupidity, I'm saying that they have demonstrated these traits in the past, which you and Alyeska refuse to acknowledge. Further, you may gain MORE information by using spies rather than shadowing a ship, but you would gain even more information by doing both. The spies that they used were clearly inept. Even once on board, and trusted members of the crew, they could not discover that the ship was alone in the DQ without first revealing themselves, even though the sole purpose of the crew was to return home, and the captain seemed obsessed with that goal. This further demonstrates that the spies were able to gain no useful data on the wherabouts of the ship, and FURTHER demonstrates that they should have shadowed the VOY ship, as well.

[XaLEv]

Assimilation is extremely fast. ONE nanoprobe is needed, no more.

LMAO!

God, this just gets better and better...