Clone Wars Chapter 21 to 25, revelations on Jedi vs Droid

[18-Till-I-Die]

Are we really going to say that Vader, who, yes Vader fans, was a stiff old dude is as fast and agile and powerful as Yoda in ATOTC? Or Mace in Clone Wars? But that he just never got around to using it...sorry but that's silly.

He's fighting old Obi and he holds back cause he's confused that Obi is holding back? C'mon.

He was gravely injured, he was old, i think a more rational answer is he just couldnt move like that any more.

[SCVN 2812]

It could be that Vader conserves his strength more in the classic trilogy. Being partially machine and aging his well of darkside power is not as infinite as it used to be and in two of the three duels of the trilogy he is up against his much younger and possibly equally powerful son.

We know Vader can react very quickly when necessary, he snapped that hand out pretty fast in anticipation of Solo shooting at him and needing to absorb / redirect the energy. Luke too can be quick, you have to be in order to deflect blaster bolts. Anticipating that someone is going to shoot at you is not enough, you have to be quick enough to put your lightsaber inbetween you and the blaster bolt.

Basically Vader and Luke do have the speed of Republic era Jedi they just don't waste their physical and force strength in a life or death duel on showy moves and acrobatics that have gotten more Jedi in the prequels killed or seriously wounded than they have saved. If Vader had to, he could use the very same strength in the force and physical prowess that lets him deflect Solo's blaster bolt to react to a hyperactive Jedi. That Luke, having been trained by Yoda, the yardstick to which Obi-Wan measures Anakin's saber prowess, scorns the hyperactive style of the Republic era is very telling of just how effective the two styles are.

As for stiffness, Vader was holding back in ESB and as for ROTJ its possible Luke could have reached a level of power that their powers in the force effectively canceled each other out leaving them to rely on physical prowess.

As to why Vader wouldn't get the same cybnernetics as Grievious, this seems to fit with Sidious' sense of humor. It serves to debilitate Vader and remind him of his failure to kill Obi-Wan and the events leading up to that fateful duel. Physical limits force him to tap deeper into the dark side to overcome them, making Vader more suceptible to Sidious' manipulation although more powerful and dangerous as well.

[McC]

Which was precisely what I am getting too. It now seems that with the Clone wars cartoon, Jedi uber-ness can be replicated and copied in the form of droids/cyborgs (and maybe possibly manufactured on a large scale). Which kinds of goes against what Star Wars has built around the Jedi knights as uber, near invincible warriors that can only be bested by another Jedi or by SHEER (and I do mean sheer) outnumbering enemy forces.

Definitely false. Jedi have been killed by other skilled warriors previously. And there's no way to replicate a Jedi in entirety with a droid. Lightsaber combat ability? Okay, fine. The lightsaber is the Jedi weapon of choice, but it is not exclusively a Jedi weapon. Others can use it, but doing so is dangerous without a high degree of skill. Oh look, Grevious has that. Grevious can't Force-push. Grevious can't accelerate his healing. Grevious cannot contend with a Jedi in anything other than a flat-out lightsaber/melee fight.

I'm somewhat hesitant as to whether or not Grevious could even contend with a Jedi if he had only one lightsaber as opposed to two or four.

[Lord Revan]

Think again. Grevious is not a jedi/sith. He's not force sensitive. Yet he's wielding quadruple sabers!!!

So? You just have his limbs programmed to be unable to cut himself with them. Problem solved. With the Shroud of the Dark Side in effect, I could take out a jedi given the advantages Grevious has.

He is faster and stronger than they are, more focussed, and better armed and armoured. The only thing they have going for them is the ability to attack with the force, and he has been taught how to prevent them using it when he fights them. Not seeing a problem here.

Which was precisely what I am getting too. It now seems that with the Clone wars cartoon, Jedi uber-ness can be replicated and copied in the form of droids/cyborgs (and maybe possibly manufactured on a large scale). Which kinds of goes against what Star Wars has built around the Jedi knights as uber, near invincible warriors that can only be bested by another Jedi or by SHEER (and I do mean sheer) outnumbering enemy forces.

Well the Force can destroy/damage droid so easiely that it's not worth the effort to build Jedi killler droids (the HK series(from KOTOR 1&2) is the only one that I remember).

[18-Till-I-Die]

I think some people are just wanking Vader and Luke in the OT.

Luke was a kid with nill training, no matter how powerful he was. He never took one the likes of someone like Palpy in his prime, and was ASSRAPED by Palpy when he tried. Force lightning, remember?

Vader was indeed stiff and slow and limited to basically normal human speed it seemed. He wasnt at all like Anakin in the PT.

I like teh OT too, but it's silly to compare an old man with a bad back and a kid to a trained Jedi and say they're holding back. No one 'holds back' in a life or death battle, they fight to survive, thats common sense. If Luke without any training fought Yoda in ATOTC he'd be killed in a second, period. He might, yes, be vastly more POWERFUL but he has no tallent at the time.

[NecronLord]

Are we really going to say that Vader, who, yes Vader fans, was a stiff old dude is as fast and agile and powerful as Yoda in ATOTC? Or Mace in Clone Wars? But that he just never got around to using it...sorry but that's silly.

Why not? When not using the force, Yoda whezes along and puffs his way up onto a seat. All that adjility comes from the force. Vader, when not using it, is just as adjile as a man in a suit.

[McC]

Are we really going to say that Vader, who, yes Vader fans, was a stiff old dude is as fast and agile and powerful as Yoda in ATOTC? Or Mace in Clone Wars? But that he just never got around to using it...sorry but that's silly.

He's fighting old Obi and he holds back cause he's confused that Obi is holding back? C'mon.

He was gravely injured, he was old, i think a more rational answer is he just couldnt move like that any more.

Sam Jackson, and by extension Mace Windu (unless there's some kind of evidence to the contrary) is 57 years old. Anakin, in ROTJ, is something like 48. He wasn't particularly old.

[NecronLord]

Luke was a kid with nill training, no matter how powerful he was. He never took one the likes of someone like Palpy in his prime, and was ASSRAPED by Palpy when he tried. Force lightning, remember?

Nill training my ass. He was nearly completely trained. Anakin was practically unconcious under a lesser barrage by Dooku, Luke was still moving, talking, and even according to the RotJ novel, beginning to learn how to deflect the stuff on the fly!

Vader was indeed stiff and slow and limited to basically normal human speed it seemed. He wasnt at all like Anakin in the PT.

No. He was far better. Not exposing himself with a guard that leaves his entire body unprotected, not charging around impulsively, not getting his ass whupped by the likes of Dooku.

I like teh OT too, but it's silly to compare an old man with a bad back and a kid to a trained Jedi and say they're holding back. No one 'holds back' in a life or death battle, they fight to survive, thats common sense. If Luke without any training fought Yoda in ATOTC he'd be killed in a second, period. He might, yes, be vastly more POWERFUL but he has no tallent at the time.

Luke was a fully trained Jedi you dolt.

More to the point, Yoda's skill and experience is the decisive factor. Not his initial power.

[Rommie2006]

Err. You people are forgetting, Luke Skywalker could take on and defeat both Vader and the Emperor at the same time if properly trained. He is more than a match for any Jedi ever to live in terms of raw power. Thus, he is the most powerful jedi ever. Get it?

Huh???

Luke NEVER defeated Palpatine. He got trashed by Palpy force lightning(and if you go strictly by canon on screen evidence, he couldnt even block Palpy lightning!) It was Vader that trashed Palpy, pls dun tell me you cant remember???

Luke defeated Vader, OK fine. As I said before my assertion is that Vader is a crippled old cyborg who is stiff as 3PO. Big deal... If he takes on Windu and wins, you got me... but then we'll never know now won't we?

[NecronLord]

Vader is immobile is a style over substance fallacy. Because he doesn't have coreography designed to wow you with his adjility, is not reason to conclude that he is a 'cripple' as Lucas puts it.

[NecronLord]

Luke NEVER defeated Palpatine. He got trashed by Palpy force lightning(and if you go strictly by canon on screen evidence, he couldnt even block Palpy lightning!) It was Vader that trashed Palpy, pls dun tell me you cant remember???

He wasn't even trying to fight Palpatine. He threw the saber away and let Palpy zap him. Palpatines visions said that Luke would be able to destroy him and Vader, and both Yoda and Obi-Wan said that if he had stayed to complete the training before facing vader, he would have been able to defeat the Emperor.

Luke defeated Vader, OK fine. As I said before my assertion is that Vader is a crippled old cyborg who is stiff as 3PO. Big deal... If he takes on Windu and wins, you got me... but then we'll never know now won't we?

Your assertion is a style over substance fallacy. Vader is not immobile, he is simply not showy and stupid, like Qui-gon and friends.

[Rommie2006]

So? You just have his limbs programmed to be unable to cut himself with them. Problem solved. With the Shroud of the Dark Side in effect, I could take out a jedi given the advantages Grevious has.

He is faster and stronger than they are, more focussed, and better armed and armoured. The only thing they have going for them is the ability to attack with the force, and he has been taught how to prevent them using it when he fights them. Not seeing a problem here.

Which was precisely what I am getting too. It now seems that with the Clone wars cartoon, Jedi uber-ness can be replicated and copied in the form of droids/cyborgs (and maybe possibly manufactured on a large scale). Which kinds of goes against what Star Wars has built around the Jedi knights as uber, near invincible warriors that can only be bested by another Jedi or by SHEER (and I do mean sheer) outnumbering enemy forces.

Well the Force can destroy/damage droid so easiely that it's not worth the effort to build Jedi killler droids (the HK series(from KOTOR 1&2) is the only one that I remember).

Oh pls KOTOR is not even Canon. If it was then I ask, why didnt Shakti and company simply use Destroy/Damage droid on Grevious and his lackeys?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ok so Luke was fully trained, could have fooled me since he didnt seem to show much of it. I would've expected him to own Palpy more since he was, indeed, more powerful in terms of his Force application, as i understand it.

[NecronLord]

Ok so Luke was fully trained, could have fooled me since he didnt seem to show much of it. I would've expected him to own Palpy more since he was, indeed, more powerful in terms of his Force application, as i understand it.

He needed more training to defeat Vader and the Emperor at once. He did however, in Yoda's opinion, need no more training to be qualified as a Jedi Knight, just experience.

[Rommie2006]

Are we really going to say that Vader, who, yes Vader fans, was a stiff old dude is as fast and agile and powerful as Yoda in ATOTC? Or Mace in Clone Wars? But that he just never got around to using it...sorry but that's silly.

Why not? When not using the force, Yoda whezes along and puffs his way up onto a seat. All that adjility comes from the force. Vader, when not using it, is just as adjile as a man in a suit.

Well until we see Vader REALLY kicking Jedi ass with lightning fast reflexes in ROTS, your point is not entirely valid for Vader's case.

And for the record, I agree that age has nothing to do with a Jedi power. For fuck sake look at Dooku. He's aging with white hair all over, but his skill and elegance can kick the crap out of Obiwan and chosen boy...

[McC]

Huh???

Luke NEVER defeated Palpatine. He got trashed by Palpy force lightning(and if you go strictly by canon on screen evidence, he couldnt even block Palpy lightning!) It was Vader that trashed Palpy, pls dun tell me you cant remember???

A) Necron said Luke could have, not that he did.

B) Luke did not block the Force lightning in the sense that Yoda blocked Dooku's. He rather deflected it off of himself much like water deflects off of a plastic surface. But he could only do that for so long until he was worn out. This is stated rather explicitly in the novelization and is not in any way contradicted by what we see on screen, enshrining it as canon.

Luke defeated Vader, OK fine. As I said before my assertion is that Vader is a crippled old cyborg who is stiff as 3PO. Big deal... If he takes on Windu and wins, you got me... but then we'll never know now won't we?

As Necron said, style-over-substance fallacy. If Vader is a stiff, crippled cyborg, then the Naboo starfighters are more advanced than X-wings. It's bullshit based on flashy looks rather than rational assessment. As others have stated, if you want to live in a swordfight, you do not go around being flashy. That gets you killed in real life. In the OR, it's reasonable to conclude that the Jedi got used to dealing with blaster people. Perhaps for that, their techniques were fine. For actual lightsaber dueling, though, their technique was awful. Look at Dooku for a better comparison. Very few flashy moves, very little movement, and very exacting control. Yoda's bouncing around all over the place, but Dooku stays relatively motionless and holds off the greatest Jedi swordsman to ever live.

[NecronLord]

Oh pls KOTOR is not even Canon. If it was then I ask, why didnt Shakti and company simply use Destroy/Damage droid on Grevious and his lackeys?

Incorrect. Games are part of the canon heirachy. The clone wars cartoon is more dubious in its canonicity, because it is supposedly the recolections of a character 30 years after the event.

And try to remember, the Shroud of the Dark Side is still in effect, the Jedi are simply not what they once were in the Clone wars era. Look at TMP. Jedi can get up to highway car speeds there in about a second, and pull 60 Gs by running, not to mention turn invisible.

[Rommie2006]

Luke was a kid with nill training, no matter how powerful he was. He never took one the likes of someone like Palpy in his prime, and was ASSRAPED by Palpy when he tried. Force lightning, remember?

Nill training my ass. He was nearly completely trained. Anakin was practically unconcious under a lesser barrage by Dooku, Luke was still moving, talking, and even according to the RotJ novel, beginning to learn how to deflect the stuff on the fly!

Vader was indeed stiff and slow and limited to basically normal human speed it seemed. He wasnt at all like Anakin in the PT.

No. He was far better. Not exposing himself with a guard that leaves his entire body unprotected, not charging around impulsively, not getting his ass whupped by the likes of Dooku.

I like teh OT too, but it's silly to compare an old man with a bad back and a kid to a trained Jedi and say they're holding back. No one 'holds back' in a life or death battle, they fight to survive, thats common sense. If Luke without any training fought Yoda in ATOTC he'd be killed in a second, period. He might, yes, be vastly more POWERFUL but he has no tallent at the time.

Luke was a fully trained Jedi you dolt.

More to the point, Yoda's skill and experience is the decisive factor. Not his initial power.

MUHAHAHA??? Luke a trained JEDI???? LOL! ROTFLMAO.
Luke only "completed" his training cause Yoda died and could not train him no longer. Do you know how LONG a Jedi training is? The younglings are taken in practically at birth, and it would seem that their apprenticeship doesnt end until their late teens.
All the training he ever received was Yoda's "theory lecture" on the force and its associated concepts. He knows NOTHING about lightsaber combat and techniques, and he would be ass raped by any Old Republic Jedi Knight.

[NecronLord]

Well until we see Vader REALLY kicking Jedi ass with lightning fast reflexes in ROTS, your point is not entirely valid for Vader's case.

Don't you understand? These lightning fast reflexes are not due to their bodies. They're due to the force. Why do you think Vader can't do that too?

And for the record, I agree that age has nothing to do with a Jedi power. For fuck sake look at Dooku. He's aging with white hair all over, but his skill and elegance can kick the crap out of Obiwan and chosen boy...

His power gained through the dark side did that. If they too were Sith, he would have been defeated.

[Rommie2006]

Oh pls KOTOR is not even Canon. If it was then I ask, why didnt Shakti and company simply use Destroy/Damage droid on Grevious and his lackeys?

Incorrect. Games are part of the canon heirachy. The clone wars cartoon is more dubious in its canonicity, because it is supposedly the recolections of a character 30 years after the event.

And try to remember, the Shroud of the Dark Side is still in effect, the Jedi are simply not what they once were in the Clone wars era. Look at TMP. Jedi can get up to highway car speeds there in about a second, and pull 60 Gs by running, not to mention turn invisible.

You're joking right? I read Lucas changed the canon rules lately, but I am not buying into the shit that KOTOR is canon. You might as well say games like X-wing and TIE Fighter are cannon, and a ISD can be taken down by a few dozen proton torps.... sheesh. Game writers don't even do any proper SW research...

[Grasscutter]

1)Gen Grevious's droid lackeys, the droids that were wielding that double-bladed energy staff (for lack of proper description). Were those droids mass produced in large quantities? They seem to be able to hold their own against the typical Jedi Knight, like Shakti and the other 2 Jedis that were saving Palpatine. If so, are the Jedi knights reduce to MERE weaklings that can be bested by these droids?

Those droids can't be mass produced in large quantities. They're Grevious' special fuck buddies.

As for Grevious himself, I think EU mentioned something about him getting a blood transfusion from Sifo Diyas.

In Vader's case, the movies depict him moving like any normal human. He doesn't need to do the flashy shit Jedi are seen doing in the PT, in fact, if you try and pull that shit in real life while fencing against a master fencer (who would move more like Vader, heck, the guy who was under the suit in the OT fight scenes was a pro fencer, IIRC) you'd end up dead fast.

I used to fence in college (not well, might I add, so I admit to not being an expert on this subject), and you know what our coach always told us? Keep it simple, stupid. Why waste time and energy on flashy, complicated shit, when a straight up lunge or parry is going to get the job done? If you ever watch Olympic level fencers, a lot of them are just doing basic moves, back and forth. Each move leads into the next as part of a greater strategy, like a chess game, but this strategy is built on the basics.

Also, what's more intimidating? The big scary guy who's jumping around on walls swinging four lightsabres, or the guy who just stands there and kills you effortlessly by raising his hand and making a fist? Flashy does not always equal better. Yes, Mace can do all sorts of amazing and creative stuff with the Force. But what happens when Grievous whips out all his sabres and tries to intimidate him? Mace gives him the Force equivallent of a bitch slap. Simple — but direct, powerful, and most importantly, effective.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I dont know...this all seems like OT wanking.

Is it really that hard to beleive that a guy who had been through what Vader had, physically, was just stiff and slow? For God's sake he lost part of his spine and was on an iron lung, sustained by the Darkside. He couldnt do half the stuff he used to, and guess what, he didnt do half the stuff he used to either.

And yeah so Mace may be older, thats REAL arguable using actor ages...but Mace wasnt on a resporator and had bionics and Dark Force power keeping him held together.

You guys are really just way, WAY, over estimating Vader and Luke and really wanking them here.

[McC]

Oh pls KOTOR is not even Canon. If it was then I ask, why didnt Shakti and company simply use Destroy/Damage droid on Grevious and his lackeys?

"stfu kthx bye"

The events in all games are canon unless otherwise contradicted. The mechanisc of a game system are not canon. Get your facts straight.

Ok so Luke was fully trained, could have fooled me since he didnt seem to show much of it. I would've expected him to own Palpy more since he was, indeed, more powerful in terms of his Force application, as i understand it.

*sigh* Luke was a fully trained Jedi Knight. As a fully trained Jedi Knight, he could not stand up to both of them. Fuck, from the trailer it looks like Yoda can't stand up to Palpatine. The fact that with sufficient honing of his skills and, probably most importantly, centering in the light side, Luke was prophesied to defeat both of them should be sufficient evidence enough. Luke was more powerful, yes. But he was not experienced.

Look at it this way. You go to start a new job and you get trained to do that job. You are then qualified to do the job. However, as you work at the job, you get better at it over time until you can train the next newb to come along. Luke was powerful and trained, but not experienced. That's point. "No more training do you require." Yoda didn't say, "No more experience need you."

Well until we see Vader REALLY kicking Jedi ass with lightning fast reflexes in ROTS, your point is not entirely valid for Vader's case.

How is his point not valid?

[NecronLord]

MUHAHAHA??? Luke a trained JEDI???? LOL! ROTFLMAO.
Luke only "completed" his training cause Yoda died and could not train him no longer. Do you know how LONG a Jedi training is? The younglings are taken in practically at birth, and it would seem that their apprenticeship doesnt end until their late teens.

And how much of that was combat training? Luke got compressed combat training, leaving out the diplomacy, advanced theory (living force stuff) judgment, law enforcement, physical combat, piloting, and numerous other aspects of Jedi training.

Here's a hint. No more training do you require is quite accurate. He doesn't require any more martial training. He requires experience. That is why from around the age of ten upward, Jedi Padawans were put out into the field. They had the combat training, they needed the real world experience.

And, as pointed out above, a Jedi Knight could not defeat even one Sith Lord alone.

All the training he ever received was Yoda's "theory lecture" on the force and its associated concepts. He knows NOTHING about lightsaber combat and techniques, and he would be ass raped by any Old Republic Jedi Knight.

The falcon took at low end, months, to reach Bespin, at high end, years (though due to relativity, less time would be experienced by those aboard).

[NecronLord]

You're joking right? I read Lucas changed the canon rules lately, but I am not buying into the shit that KOTOR is canon. You might as well say games like X-wing and TIE Fighter are cannon, and a ISD can be taken down by a few dozen proton torps.... sheesh. Game writers don't even do any proper SW research...

Games are indeed canon. They are low level canon, C level, it is now called, but still canon.