Star Trek vs. Star Wars With Equal Firepower

[18-Till-I-Die]

So in scenario--

Warp=Hyperdrive

No, it's still Hyperdrive>Warp. It's just weapons and shields that are brought to parity.

Ah, my mistake.

Although it would be a bit more interesting if we were to take the hyper-speed down to warp speeds though; make the Empire work for their victory, IMHO. It'd also be more 'fair', i'd think.

[The Spartan]

Although it would be a bit more interesting if we were to take the hyper-speed down to warp speeds though; make the Empire work for their victory, IMHO. It'd also be more 'fair', i'd think.

But if we did that the Empire would never have been able to conquer their own galaxy, much less another. And even if they somehow still managed to invade the Federation it would take them years to conquer the Feds just because of the travel time.

[18-Till-I-Die]

snips.

But if we did that the Empire would never have been able to conquer their own galaxy, much less another. And even if they somehow still managed to invade the Federation it would take them years to conquer the Feds just because of the travel time.

Yeah you're right, maybe...i dont know...up Warp speeds to Hyperdrive?

[The Spartan]

Yeah you're right, maybe...i dont know...up Warp speeds to Hyperdrive?

If that was the case the Empire would still win. Since we're going with volume equality(ie equal size ships have equals weapons/shields), then, with the ISD being 14 times larger than a GCS, it will still win.

And with the Empire having more ships and a far larger industrial capacity. And superior tactics. And heavy armor. And no silly Structural Integrity Field.

Empire still wins. Might lose a few ships but they still overwhelm the Trekverse.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Agreed, if the ships are supposed to be scale-for-scale.

I thought they were just lowered to ST level.

Either way, i think the Empire would loose a few ships, maybe some hundreds, but still win outright. They can replace their losses faster than the Feds too, so it wouldnt matter.

[Shroom Man 777]

But what about Trek's less orthodox shit? Beaming bombs into enemy ships now becomes a viable tactic, since Wars armoring now equals Trek armoring. Then we have those transexual torpedoes.

[Tribun]

Then we have those transexual torpedoes.

I wonder what secret Federation weapon this is?

[The Spartan]

But what about Trek's less orthodox shit? Beaming bombs into enemy ships now becomes a viable tactic, since Wars armoring now equals Trek armoring. Then we have those transexual torpedoes.

No, their shields are now at parity, not their armor. But that's only for ships of equal size. And you still can't beam through the shields. And that still assumes they survive long enough to beam anything since the ISD will have 14 times as much firepower and shielding as a GCS. On top of the fighterscreen it can send out.

[Spacebeard]

But what about Trek's less orthodox shit? Beaming bombs into enemy ships now becomes a viable tactic, since Wars armoring now equals Trek armoring. Then we have those transexual torpedoes.

Who says their armor is at parity? Only their firepower has been equalled.

In other words, Trek ships now have the firepower to punch through Star Wars ship armor about as well as Star Wars ships can. That says nothing about their transporters, which still can't penetrate shields.

When has beaming a bomb onto an enemy ship ever been a viable tactic, even against other Star Trek ships? I've only even seen it used once or twice, as a tactic of desperation against a ship whose shields are down but is still overpowering (ie, against a Borg sphere in some Voyager episode).

[Shroom Man 777]

My mistake.

Hmm...the scenario states that Wars power is nerfed, most people are acting like Wars power is nerfed. But only their power and shields, no armor, right? Then this means that Wars will still hyperslaughter Trek, because Wars armor is still nigh impenetrable to Trek shit. So even if Wars and Trek are equal in firepower and shields, Wars still has an obscenely high edge.

Now if we uberize Trek to SW weapons and shield levels, this might be different. But upon reading the thread, most people aren't doing so...

[18-Till-I-Die]

I was assuming Wars defenses were dropped to Trek levels along with their weapons, i thought that was the scenario

[Shroom Man 777]

People seem to be talking as if that's so. But the OP talks about Wars' power and shield getting nerfed, but it never mentioned the armor. THE ARMOR!

[Spacebeard]

Well, at any rate, even if the armor is weakened to the point where it's vulnerable to Star Trek-level weaponry, transporters can be blocked by many, many things besides armor. Beaming a bomb on to a ship is at best a one-shot trick (I only recall it being used once or twice on Star Trek), and as Darth Wong always says, it would be far easier to destroy an unshielded and defenseless ship by simply using your weapons.

[Shroom Man 777]

Never said anything about transporter bombs being t3h uber. I was just going "wat abt trek's fummy teknikues lyk transexual boms and trpedos11! lol lol lol!"

[Junghalli]

Hmm...the scenario states that Wars power is nerfed, most people are acting like Wars power is nerfed. But only their power and shields, no armor, right? Then this means that Wars will still hyperslaughter Trek, because Wars armor is still nigh impenetrable to Trek shit. So even if Wars and Trek are equal in firepower and shields, Wars still has an obscenely high edge.

For the OP we'll assume Wars armor is roughly equal to Federation armor. It still gives Wars an advantage though, because the Federation foolishly fails to armor most of their warships, so Wars ships will be able to take more punishment. The point of the OP is to see how Wars and Trek would stack up without Wars ridiculous power generation advantage.
My guess is it would go something like this.
Fusion cube>SSD>Borg cube>ISD>Romulan ship>Federation ship>BoP>Millenium Falcon.

[Spacebeard]

Hmm...the scenario states that Wars power is nerfed, most people are acting like Wars power is nerfed. But only their power and shields, no armor, right? Then this means that Wars will still hyperslaughter Trek, because Wars armor is still nigh impenetrable to Trek shit. So even if Wars and Trek are equal in firepower and shields, Wars still has an obscenely high edge.

For the OP we'll assume Wars armor is roughly equal to Federation armor. It still gives Wars an advantage though, because the Federation foolishly fails to armor most of their warships, so Wars ships will be able to take more punishment. The point of the OP is to see how Wars and Trek would stack up without Wars ridiculous power generation advantage.
My guess is it would go something like this.
Fusion cube>SSD>Borg cube>ISD>Romulan ship>Federation ship>BoP>Millenium Falcon.

Before the ludicrous "Scimitar", which breaks all the established rules of Star Trek combat, I don't think that the average Romulan ship is better than the average Federation ship. They performed rather poorly in Dominion War battles, after all. I'd guess that Romulan ships are deficient in stand-up fights but excel at stealthy ambushes. That's beside the point, though.

I don't know what a "fusion cube" is. The only types of Borg ships I remember are the cube, the sphere, the weird thing from "Descent" (TNG), and the "tactical cube" from Voyager. I don't think any of them would stand a chance against an Executor-class ship even if their weapons had equivalent firepower. It's bigger, better armed, and better armored than anything in Star Trek. See also below about the Borg.

Under this scenario, do the Empire's weapons and shields still operate under the same fundamental principles, just with reduced power? Remember that the only reason why the Borg's various "adaptation" tricks work is because of the oscillating weapons used in the Star Trek universe. Adapt to the shield frequency or the phaser frequency, and it's as if your enemy's weapons or shields aren't there. Star Wars weapons and shields don't work this way, and it's a matter of their fundamental design, not just of their relative level of power. The Imperial Navy will be blowing huge holes out of Borg cubes like the Enterprise D was in "Q Who?", unless their weapons are also nerfed so that they have the same design problems as phasers.

And, of course, the Empire retains its massive advantages in speed and numbers, so in the end the way individuals ships stack up against one another isn't very meaningful, since the Empire would engage only on its own terms, when it can bring overwhelming numbers to the battle.

[Junghalli]

Before the ludicrous "Scimitar", which breaks all the established rules of Star Trek combat, I don't think that the average Romulan ship is better than the average Federation ship. They performed rather poorly in Dominion War battles, after all. I'd guess that Romulan ships are deficient in stand-up fights but excel at stealthy ambushes. That's beside the point, though.

I think you're about right. The D'dedrix seems to have a forward weapons arch designed for killing the enemy quickly rather than getting involved in a prolonged battle. It's bigger than any Federation ship though. The Scimitar class is definitely superior to any Federation ship class, although I don't know how common it is. Not sure about the Valdore class.

I don't know what a "fusion cube" is. The only types of Borg ships I remember are the cube, the sphere, the weird thing from "Descent" (TNG), and the "tactical cube" from Voyager. I don't think any of them would stand a chance against an Executor-class ship even if their weapons had equivalent firepower. It's bigger, better armed, and better armored than anything in Star Trek.

A fusion cube is created by combining multiple Borg cubes into a bigger vessel. At minimum a fusion cube is eight Borg cubes combined, although larger combinations are probably possible. It's not a canon design but it's common enough in the ST EU that I figured it's safe to put it on the list. In this scenario it would indeed IMO be biggest and baddest vessel in both universes (with the exception of the Death Star and maybe some of the bigger SSD classes if the Empire gets to keep them).

Remember that the only reason why the Borg's various "adaptation" tricks work is because of the oscillating weapons used in the Star Trek universe. Adapt to the shield frequency or the phaser frequency, and it's as if your enemy's weapons or shields aren't there. Star Wars weapons and shields don't work this way, and it's a matter of their fundamental design, not just of their relative level of power.

If Borg shielding didn't work on non frequency dependent weapons then photon torpedoes would go right through it (there's no way a missile is going to have a frequency). So yes, Borg shielding would be effective against the Empire's weapons in this scenario.

[SirNitram]

Fusion cubes are wank made up for one of the games. It bears no resemblence to anything accepted as 'legitimate' in Star Trek by Paramount or even by Roddenbury.

They're basically just 'ooo, we need something bigger and badder than a Cube.. Let's weld a bunch together!' Of course, this wasn't enough frantic maturbation, so we would also get the fusion tactical cube.

[Spacebeard]

Before the ludicrous "Scimitar", which breaks all the established rules of Star Trek combat, I don't think that the average Romulan ship is better than the average Federation ship. They performed rather poorly in Dominion War battles, after all. I'd guess that Romulan ships are deficient in stand-up fights but excel at stealthy ambushes. That's beside the point, though.

I think you're about right. The D'dedrix seems to have a forward weapons arch designed for killing the enemy quickly rather than getting involved in a prolonged battle. It's bigger than any Federation ship though.

The D'deridex is big, but mostly empty space. It seems to be designed for intimidation, ambushes, and quick strikes.

A fusion cube is created by combining multiple Borg cubes into a bigger vessel. At minimum a fusion cube is eight Borg cubes combined, although larger combinations are probably possible. It's not a canon design but it's common enough in the ST EU that I figured it's safe to put it on the list. In this scenario it would indeed IMO be biggest and baddest vessel in both universes (with the exception of the Death Star and maybe some of the bigger SSD classes if the Empire gets to keep them).

I don't think eight Borg cubes would be a match for an Executor-class ship, which stood up to several Star Destroyers colliding with it when exiting hyperspace, and you said yourself they aren't canon. You might as well start making up Star Trek ships yourself to throw against the Empire.

If Borg shielding didn't work on non frequency dependent weapons then photon torpedoes would go right through it (there's no way a missile is going to have a frequency). So yes, Borg shielding would be effective against the Empire's weapons in this scenario.

This has been discussed before, and yes, they can have a "frequency". The theory is that a torpedo (or a person, in the case of Borg drones) can be encapsulated within a forcefield of an inverse frequency that cancels out the shield. See the "Frequency Myths" page on the main site. If they couldn't do this, then they couldn't fire torpedoes with their shields up. Note also how Lursa and B'etor were able to fire torpedoes through the Enterprise D's shields by knowing the frequency.

Furthermore, even if they are able to "adapt", this doesn't magically nullify a weapon's firepower, and Borg cubes can still be destroyed by Star Trek levels of firepower with or without "adaptation". See First Contact, where massed Starfleet ships took out a Borg cube. I imagine that an Imperator-class star destroyer, which as stated above in this thread is fourteen times the size of a Federation Galaxy-class with many more weapons, could probably match the firepower from the STFC fleet.

[SirNitram]

As to the 'Non-frequency weapons must be stoppable! THEY STOP TORPEDOS!' Torpedo shields are a more-or-less given as they can be set to a frequency(See ST: Generations).

For examples of non-frequency attacks on Borg cubes: Descent, the solar flare, Scorpion, the planetary chunks, First Contact, the tommy gun.

[Junghalli]

The D'deridex is big, but mostly empty space. It seems to be designed for intimidation, ambushes, and quick strikes.

Yeah, it seems geared to karate tactics (i.e. doing a lot of damage without the enemy getting a chance to hit back).

I don't think eight Borg cubes would be a match for an Executor-class ship, which stood up to several Star Destroyers colliding with it when exiting hyperspace, and you said yourself they aren't canon. You might as well start making up Star Trek ships yourself to throw against the Empire.

I'm not sure how a fusion cube stacks up to an SSD volumetrically. The Executor's much longer, but also much thinner. The lack of armor will cost the fusion cube, but that's sort of made up for by the way the Borg distribute vital systems all over the ship meaning their ships are very hard to kill short of pulverizing them completely. OK, I'll give you that an SSD>fusion cube, but it would take a lot of damage killing one. A tactical fusion cube might do better, it is armored. Anyway, as you said they're not canon.

This has been discussed before, and yes, they can have a "frequency". The theory is that a torpedo (or a person, in the case of Borg drones) can be encapsulated within a forcefield of an inverse frequency that cancels out the shield.

OK, for purposes of the OP we bump up Borg shields so they can resist non frequency dependent weapons and let's leave it at that.

If they couldn't do this, then they couldn't fire torpedoes with their shields up.

I can think of a couple of ways. I think it's more that ST weapons designers are fucking morons (as has been proven again and again).
(1) Stick the top of the torpedo launcher out of the shield envelope.
(2) Flicker and fire system: shut down the shield just before firing, raise it immediately afterwards.

Furthermore, even if they are able to "adapt", this doesn't magically nullify a weapon's firepower, and Borg cubes can still be destroyed by Star Trek levels of firepower with or without "adaptation".

I'm not arguing with that. I just don't want a scenario where one side is rendered completely helpless. That's boring; the result is a foregone conclusion.

See First Contact, where massed Starfleet ships took out a Borg cube. I imagine that an Imperator-class star destroyer, which as stated above in this thread is fourteen times the size of a Federation Galaxy-class with many more weapons, could probably match the firepower from the STFC fleet.

There were hundreds of starships at FC IIRC. With equal pound for pound firepower a Borg cube is much more powerful than a single ISD.

[Spacebeard]

I don't think eight Borg cubes would be a match for an Executor-class ship, which stood up to several Star Destroyers colliding with it when exiting hyperspace, and you said yourself they aren't canon. You might as well start making up Star Trek ships yourself to throw against the Empire.

I'm not sure how a fusion cube stacks up to an SSD volumetrically. The Executor's much longer, but also much thinner. The lack of armor will cost the fusion cube, but that's sort of made up for by the way the Borg distribute vital systems all over the ship meaning their ships are very hard to kill short of pulverizing them completely. OK, I'll give you that an SSD>fusion cube, but it would take a lot of damage killing one. A tactical fusion cube might do better, it is armored. Anyway, as you said they're not canon.

Borg ships do have critical points which can cause a chain reaction when they are hit. See again STFC, when the Borg cube was destroyed by internal explosions after the Federation fleet poured all of their firepower onto one spot noticed by Picard. See also Voyager's "Endgame", in which the Borg ships taken out by the "transphasic" torpedoes are clearly destroyed by internal explosions set off after the torpedo has detonated.

OK, for purposes of the OP we bump up Borg shields so they can resist non frequency dependent weapons and let's leave it at that.

I was already operating under the assumption that the Star Trek and Star Wars shields and weapons were roughly equalized, including the Borg. Weapons which have equivalent firepower to Federation weapons relative to Borg shields but do not oscillate on and off on some frequency will have a much easier time penetrating Borg shields since they won't "adapt" to them.

If they couldn't do this, then they couldn't fire torpedoes with their shields up.

I can think of a couple of ways. I think it's more that ST weapons designers are fucking morons (as has been proven again and again).
(1) Stick the top of the torpedo launcher out of the shield envelope.

We don't have any evidence that they can do this. Either way, we don't see it on the ships of any Star Trek empire, so I'd wager there's a reason why. Maybe torpedo launchers which jut outside the shield bubble are quickly destroyed by enemy fire, for instance.

(2) Flicker and fire system: shut down the shield just before firing, raise it immediately afterwards.

This is what they do for the phasers, hence the frequencies. But since torpedoes are physical objects which take an appreciable amount of time to pass outside the ship's shield bubble, they would have to drop the shields for a substantial fraction of a second, quite long enough for an enemy to take advantage and rake them.

See First Contact, where massed Starfleet ships took out a Borg cube. I imagine that an Imperator-class star destroyer, which as stated above in this thread is fourteen times the size of a Federation Galaxy-class with many more weapons, could probably match the firepower from the STFC fleet.

There were hundreds of starships at FC IIRC. With equal pound for pound firepower a Borg cube is much more powerful than a single ISD.

We definitely didn't see "hundreds" of Starfleet ships onscreen. The main site here says "dozens", and if I recall correctly the Enterprise-E was the largest of them.

An Imperator is far larger than the largest ship built by Starfleet, and it packs more weapons for its size than any ship in Starfleet. With the Borg unable to "adapt" to Imperial weapons, a star destroyer could quickly destroy a cube's tractor beam and cutting beam emplacements as they are fired, as the Enterprise-D did in "Best of Both Worlds", except without the laborious rotation of phaser frequencies, and each hit would cut huge holes in the cube, just as the Enterprise-D's weapons did in "Q Who?". I imagine judicious use of an ISD's TIE fighters would come in handy, also: with the firepower equalized I don't know how much damage they could do, but "Best of Both Worlds" shows us that the Borg are susceptible to being distracted, and we've never seen them targeting two ships at the same time, only switching rapidly between targets.

And, of course, debating one-on-one duels isn't very meaningful, since the Empire's speed advantage will allow them to pick and choose their battles, engaging only when they have an advantage in numbers.

[Lord Pounder]

Wank wank wank. If you give the Federation equal technology and numbers it's not the Federation anymore and even then they still get there asses handed to them. The average Starfleet Captain or Admiral has no idea how to fight with his ship effectivly, this organisation considered Riker a tatical genius, and has no experience in how to fight a large battle, in any of the DS9 fleet battle they descented into ugly mass brawls with no coordination and no idea of how to use extreem ranges. Also add the structural frailties that Federation ships suffer from and in short they are fucked 6 ways from Sunday. The Borgs tatic of draw up to point blank range, with the shields down, and demand surrender, are hardly ground breaking either.

[Junghalli]

Borg ships do have critical points which can cause a chain reaction when they are hit.

True, but I think you have to know where to aim. Remember that the cube in FC had suffered considerable battle damage. The reactor that Picard targeted was already damaged.

I was already operating under the assumption that the Star Trek and Star Wars shields and weapons were roughly equalized, including the Borg. Weapons which have equivalent firepower to Federation weapons relative to Borg shields but do not oscillate on and off on some frequency will have a much easier time penetrating Borg shields since they won't "adapt" to them.

As according to your hypothesis the Borg shield technology is entirely based on phase coherence taking away this weakness is part of the levelling out of firepower.

We definitely didn't see "hundreds" of Starfleet ships onscreen. The main site here says "dozens", and if I recall correctly the Enterprise-E was the largest of them.

We know a Borg cube has the firepower of at least thirty to fifty Federation starships (ref. the battle of Wolf 359). An ISD has the firepower of about 14 starships. Just looking at the size comparison of a cube and an ISD you can see that with pound for pound equality a cube has to be equal to at least four or five ISDs.

With the Borg unable to "adapt" to Imperial weapons, a star destroyer could quickly destroy a cube's tractor beam and cutting beam emplacements as they are fired, as the Enterprise-D did in "Best of Both Worlds"

The OP is that Borg shields work against Imperial weapons.

And, of course, debating one-on-one duels isn't very meaningful, since the Empire's speed advantage will allow them to pick and choose their battles, engaging only when they have an advantage in numbers.

Definitely true for the Federation. Maybe less so for the Borg as they have their transwarp conduits (I'm not sure exactly how transwarp compares to hyperdrive but it does allow travel between distant parts of the galaxy in relatively short time, so it has to negate the logistical advantages somewhat).

Wank wank wank. If you give the Federation equal technology and numbers it's not the Federation anymore and even then they still get there asses handed to them.

Equal technology, not equal numbers.

The average Starfleet Captain or Admiral has no idea how to fight with his ship effectivly, this organisation considered Riker a tatical genius, and has no experience in how to fight a large battle, in any of the DS9 fleet battle they descented into ugly mass brawls with no coordination and no idea of how to use extreem ranges.

This is why I created this scenario; so we can compare the actual competence of Wars and Trek. You can't do that in a regular vs. scenario, because Wars vs. Trek under "realistic" circumstances is like the US army vs. a small African tribe. An ISD entirely crewed by drooling retards with barely enough intelligence to operate the machinery could still bring down half the Trekverse because of the tremendous power differentials.

Also add the structural frailties that Federation ships suffer from and in short they are fucked 6 ways from Sunday

Agree, Federation ships still get dominated by Wars ships because they just plain suck. But this doesn't come into the equation in a normal vs. because of the enormous power differentials.

The Borgs tatic of draw up to point blank range, with the shields down, and demand surrender, are hardly ground breaking either.

As much as I love the Borg I have to agree with you. The Borg have the same problem as Shep's Draka in our fanfics. Their entire military doctrine is geared toward going bringing massively inferior opponents to heel. Faced with an equal or superior opponent they run into major problems (as we saw in their war against 8472).

[Darth Wong]

As according to your hypothesis the Borg shield technology is entirely based on phase coherence taking away this weakness is part of the levelling out of firepower.

Congratulations! You win the "Imbecile of the Week" award! For your tireless bullfuckery, you win this honour thanks to the stupidity of thinking that frequency dependence is a "weakness" rather than the very nature of the device in question.