Clone Wars Chapter 21 to 25, revelations on Jedi vs Droid

Rommie2006 · Post by **Rommie2006** » 2005-04-02 01:38pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I WIN!

EDIT:

So, Romie, who do you think would win? The T-800 or the fencer?

Nobody wins. Its a ceasefire. It's obvious that we should wait for ROTS, where we *supposedly* will get to see Anakin in action. I expect lots of duels (Mace, Yoda, Anakin, Dooku, Obi-wan, Grevious), hope I wont be disappointed. Once we know more of PT styles and techniques, then we can debate the PT vs OT jedi issue again. As for now, I think it will be prudent to wait for new material to arrive.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2005-04-02 01:45pm

What the hell does ROTS have to do with fencers and Terminators....?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-04-02 01:48pm

Rommie2006 wrote:Oh pls KOTOR is not even Canon. If it was then I ask, why didnt Shakti and company simply use Destroy/Damage droid on Grevious and his lackeys?

First as it's said games are low Canon (apart from game mechanics).

And Jedi during a brutal Sith war are not the same as Jedi during the Clone Wars, it's possible that none of those Jedi knew how destroy a droid using the Force, also Shaak Ti and co. were scared shitless (not best possible situation think of or use skills that need consentration).

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2005-04-02 01:51pm

Shaak Ti still killed a shitload of them. And the shitload of them didn't kill Shaak Ti despite having a bigass numerical advantage. Says something, doesn't it?

Shaak Ti and co. were also primarily running away from Grevious. They could've dueled with the shitloads of Magna Guards (Grev's robots) and killed them, but in that time span, Grev would've arrived and would've killed the lot of them!

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-04-02 01:54pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Rommie2006 wrote:Oh pls KOTOR is not even Canon. If it was then I ask, why didnt Shakti and company simply use Destroy/Damage droid on Grevious and his lackeys?
First as it's said games are low Canon (apart from game mechanics).

And Jedi during a brutal Sith war are not the same as Jedi during the Clone Wars, it's possible that none of those Jedi knew how destroy a droid using the Force, also Shaak Ti and co. were scared shitless (not best possible situation think of or use skills that need consentration).

The plotline of games are no lower than any other C-canon material. Only game mechanics are non-canon.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-04-02 01:58pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Shaak Ti still killed a shitload of them. And the shitload of them didn't kill Shaak Ti despite having a bigass numerical advantage. Says something, doesn't it?

Shaak Ti and co. were also primarily running away from Grevious. They could've dueled with the shitloads of Magna Guards (Grev's robots) and killed them, but in that time span, Grev would've arrived and would've killed the lot of them!

Yeah it's more counter why they didn't just flip their fingers and make the Magnaguards and Gen. Grievous explode.

The plotline of games are no lower than any other C-canon material. Only game mechanics are non-canon.

Games are normally considered the Lowest of C-level as it can some be hard figure out what's Canon and what's Game mechanics.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2005-04-02 02:01pm

Lord Revan wrote:Yeah it's more counter why they didn't just flip their fingers and make the Magnaguards and Gen. Grievous explode.

The General and the Magna Cum Laudes could've had intestinal fortitude, literally. Super dense shit or super strong shit that would've made force shitting a lot harder for Jedi Joe Average.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-04-02 02:03pm

Greveous was so fast no one could concentrate on him for long. Whenever he stood still he got owned, even by Shakti. And Mace probably would've killed him outright if not for his ship escaping, just cause he paused for a second or two.

Speed kills man.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2005-04-02 02:04pm

Good point. Also, the Magnas were really fast with their staff spinning and slashing and hitting and spin-slash-hittings. That'd fuck with anyone's concentration.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-04-02 02:08pm

Yes and notice no Manga Droids were killing Jedi but they got killed back. Even with speed and agility, they were still a few steps behind Jedi. Greveous did far better, because he also had a mind and was more flexible, probably way faster too with some Force sensitivity.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2005-04-02 02:11pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Yes and notice no Manga Droids were killing Jedi but they got killed back. Even with speed and agility, they were still a few steps behind Jedi. Greveous did far better, because he also had a mind and was more flexible, probably way faster too with some Force sensitivity.

Damned right.

I WIN!

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-04-02 02:24pm

MagnaGuard seem to be only effective against Clones (as anyone who has played Republic Commando will tell you) or as distraction.

Remember that in Episode 21 Grievous flees from ARC-troopers which suggests that he can't block blaster bolts (like Jedi) or doesn't do it very well. Add few IG-100s to take care of the Clonetroopers and let Grievous deal with the Jedi

Also what's with constant misspelling, I can say it's not funny.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2005-04-02 02:34pm

Lord Revan wrote: Remember that in Episode 21 Grievous flees from ARC-troopers which suggests that he can't block blaster bolts (like Jedi) or doesn't do it very well. Add few IG-100s to take care of the Clonetroopers and let Grievous deal with the Jedi

ARC Troopers with full auto blasters, including what looks like repeating blasters.. and he was still kicking their ass to the point they had to call in the gunship to cover their escape.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-04-02 02:41pm

SylasGaunt wrote:
Lord Revan wrote: Remember that in Episode 21 Grievous flees from ARC-troopers which suggests that he can't block blaster bolts (like Jedi) or doesn't do it very well. Add few IG-100s to take care of the Clonetroopers and let Grievous deal with the Jedi
ARC Troopers with full auto blasters, including what looks like repeating blasters.. and he was still kicking their ass to the point they had to call in the gunship to cover their escape.

sure Grievous kicked their once he got to Lightsaber range, the fact ran instead blocking the bolts suggests he can't do it and can be defeated by clones if he can't get to melee range (or use cover if using blasters).

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-04-02 02:46pm

There was like twelve of them, with heavy weapons and missiles and air support, and they still had trouble with him. See where i'm going with this? The guy is not weak.

Greveous owns Clones. Say it with me.

Again, speed kills.

Grasscutter · Post by **Grasscutter** » 2005-04-02 03:50pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Good point. Also, the Magnas were really fast with their staff spinning and slashing and hitting and spin-slash-hittings. That'd fuck with anyone's concentration.

That's the whole point of Grievous and his guards, methinks. They're fast and scary and do all sorts of crazy shit to break their opponent's concentration. Goes back to Dooku's lessons -- control his center, break his focus. They're terror weapons. If you survive the initial flurry and get over the initial shock though, they're not unbeatable. I think that's what we see happen with Shaak-Ti and the Magnas toward the end of the episode -- she's focused entirely on controlling the situation and thus does very well.

That's why I love Mace. Grievous tries that "I HAVE FOUR SABRES, FEAR ME" shit and Mace just reaches out and fucks him up

.

I'm also guessing that's why the Diplomatic Style (forget the number) is so flashy -- lots of fancy sword waving to awe the yokels.

As for tennis moves making their way into PT fighting, maybe the choreographer's mentality was that they do it to direct the blaster bolts? Not that the need it of course, since Luke and Mace do a fine job of directing those things on several instances without swinging their sabres in wide arcs ...

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-04-02 04:12pm

Grasscutter wrote:As for tennis moves making their way into PT fighting, maybe the choreographer's mentality was that they do it to direct the blaster bolts? Not that the need it of course, since Luke and Mace do a fine job of directing those things on several instances without swinging their sabres in wide arcs ...

Yes. The thing is, a choreographer isn't a swordsman. These moves aren't too useful in real fighting. They're not that great in universe either.

Grasscutter · Post by **Grasscutter** » 2005-04-02 04:45pm

NecronLord wrote:
Grasscutter wrote:As for tennis moves making their way into PT fighting, maybe the choreographer's mentality was that they do it to direct the blaster bolts? Not that the need it of course, since Luke and Mace do a fine job of directing those things on several instances without swinging their sabres in wide arcs ...
Yes. The thing is, a choreographer isn't a swordsman. These moves aren't too useful in real fighting. They're not that great in universe either.

Come to think of it, Qui-Gon doing this in tPM is a prime example of a Jedi OTHER than Padawan Obi-Wan doing a flashy move in combat. The definition of flashy here being something overly-complicated, exagerated, or flourishy for no good reason.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-04-02 05:19pm

On the Jedi vs Droid issue: Mace shows us that any Jedi who isn't stupid can crush Grievous with a wave of their hand. He has to scare them and distract them (with wanked-out four sabre fighting) to prevent this. And you can't scare MACE WINDU!

Even those other droids (I figure they're 'magma guards') were easily killed once they started using the force. Jedi have a blind spot for lightsabre fights, it seems, and engage in them needlessly.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-04-02 06:12pm

Jedi seem to have soft spot for Saber combat, since only Jedi I know to use the Force a lot during combat are Revan, the Exile and members of the NJO (spoiler)it should be noted that to some extent this dependent for style of play as Revan and the Exile (and some members of NJO) come from games

And it's Magnadroid IG-100 Magna Guards

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-04-02 06:25pm

LOL 'magma' guards!

I think it's hilarious that Jedi who kill BDs with the Force jump into sabre combat with Magna Guards, just because they have a melee weapon.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2005-04-02 06:25pm

It wasn't just using the force, it seems pretty clear that those Magna droids were optimised to take on a lightsaber wielding jedi. Against that, one on one, they were holding their own pretty damned well. Once Shaak-Ti started using a staff and h-t-h attacks, they weren't able to adjust nearly as well, suggesting limitations to the number of threats the droids can be programmed to counter.

Its also worth noting that their weapons were in no way optimised for kiling Jedi, and if they had been, Shaak-Ti would have been slice and diced. Instead they seem to be designed to stun the target, either for capture, or for Greivous to ostentatiously make the kill to enhance the fear he generates among the surviving jedi.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-04-02 06:32pm

MagnaGuard Electrostaff hits seem to screw up the Clone Commando armor's Shield and Visor (this can of course be game mechanic).

Rommie2006 · Post by **Rommie2006** » 2005-04-03 12:07am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:What the hell does ROTS have to do with fencers and Terminators....?

Sigh. Let's just say I saw the ROTS pre production documentary in the OT DVD. No spoilers here, but the Obi vs Anakin fight is blindingly fast. So after you've seen that, i doubt you'll ever go against the claim that vader fights like a crippled old man.

Rommie2006 · Post by **Rommie2006** » 2005-04-03 12:10am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Shaak Ti still killed a shitload of them. And the shitload of them didn't kill Shaak Ti despite having a bigass numerical advantage. Says something, doesn't it?

Shaak Ti and co. were also primarily running away from Grevious. They could've dueled with the shitloads of Magna Guards (Grev's robots) and killed them, but in that time span, Grev would've arrived and would've killed the lot of them!

Not true. Shakti held her own vs 1 magna boy. 2 perhaps, 3 even. But she lost when she was overwhelmed by that final battle where she fought a doze magna boys. The only reason why she survived is that it seems that the magna boys energy staff is not lethal. She got clobbered in the middle of the fight and yet survived. If it had been lightsaber "material", you'll be seeing pieces of her.

Conclusion. 1 vs 1, Magna boys lose. 3 vs 1, the Jed sweats. Much more than that Jed K.O.