Clone Wars Chapter 21 to 25, revelations on Jedi vs Droid

[Rommie2006]

Good point. Also, the Magnas were really fast with their staff spinning and slashing and hitting and spin-slash-hittings. That'd fuck with anyone's concentration.

That's the whole point of Grievous and his guards, methinks. They're fast and scary and do all sorts of crazy shit to break their opponent's concentration. Goes back to Dooku's lessons -- control his center, break his focus. They're terror weapons. If you survive the initial flurry and get over the initial shock though, they're not unbeatable. I think that's what we see happen with Shaak-Ti and the Magnas toward the end of the episode -- she's focused entirely on controlling the situation and thus does very well.

That's why I love Mace. Grievous tries that "I HAVE FOUR SABRES, FEAR ME" shit and Mace just reaches out and fucks him up .

I'm also guessing that's why the Diplomatic Style (forget the number) is so flashy -- lots of fancy sword waving to awe the yokels.

As for tennis moves making their way into PT fighting, maybe the choreographer's mentality was that they do it to direct the blaster bolts? Not that the need it of course, since Luke and Mace do a fine job of directing those things on several instances without swinging their sabres in wide arcs ...

Yeah, Mace rocks. Damn nice to see wank grevious taking a huge blow. Btw for the record we've never seen form 6, diplomatic style before on screen. The flashy moves come from form 4, specifically from maul and obiwan.

[Rommie2006]

As for tennis moves making their way into PT fighting, maybe the choreographer's mentality was that they do it to direct the blaster bolts? Not that the need it of course, since Luke and Mace do a fine job of directing those things on several instances without swinging their sabres in wide arcs ...

Yes. The thing is, a choreographer isn't a swordsman. These moves aren't too useful in real fighting. They're not that great in universe either.

Come to think of it, Qui-Gon doing this in tPM is a prime example of a Jedi OTHER than Padawan Obi-Wan doing a flashy move in combat. The definition of flashy here being something overly-complicated, exagerated, or flourishy for no good reason.

Please dont make assumptions of all PT Jedi by simply looking at young obi-wan and quigon. Many jedi use form 3, including old obi wan when he fought dooku. Now do you think it was flashy? so please let's not generalise here.

[Lone_Prodigy]

Yeah, Mace rocks. Damn nice to see wank grevious taking a huge blow. Btw for the record we've never seen form 6, diplomatic style before on screen. The flashy moves come from form 4, specifically from maul and obiwan.

Personally, what I liked was in Labyrinth of Evil when Grievous dueled Mace. Grievous's tactical brain and uber-aggressive computers clashed in what they wanted to do, so he misstepped and almost died. In Clone Wars Mace should've just squeezed Grievous's head.

To the best of my knowledge, most of the combatents in the arena in AotC used Form 6. They were diplomats, and because they focused most on diplomacy they knew the style that required the least effort and training so they could focus more on peaceful skills– hence why they got anally violated.

[Rommie2006]

Yeah, Mace rocks. Damn nice to see wank grevious taking a huge blow. Btw for the record we've never seen form 6, diplomatic style before on screen. The flashy moves come from form 4, specifically from maul and obiwan.

Personally, what I liked was in Labyrinth of Evil when Grievous dueled Mace. Grievous's tactical brain and uber-aggressive computers clashed in what they wanted to do, so he misstepped and almost died. In Clone Wars Mace should've just squeezed Grievous's head.

To the best of my knowledge, most of the combatents in the arena in AotC used Form 6. They were diplomats, and because they focused most on diplomacy they knew the style that required the least effort and training so they could focus more on peaceful skills– hence why they got anally violated.

True. Most of the Jedi at AOTC were Form 6. But what I meant was that we've never seen Form 6 dueling before. From what I read, I think Dooku will K.O. a form 6 jedi in under one minute.

[Shroom Man 777]

Sigh. Let's just say I saw the ROTS pre production documentary in the OT DVD. No spoilers here, but the Obi vs Anakin fight is blindingly fast. So after you've seen that, i doubt you'll ever go against the claim that vader fights like a crippled old man.

Oh, so just because in ROTS we see Vader fight blindingly fast and maybe jump around a couple of times means that in the OT he fights like a crippled old man even though he's actually fighting like an uncrippled professional swordsman wearing a Darth Vader costume?

Not true. Shakti held her own vs 1 magna boy. 2 perhaps, 3 even. But she lost when she was overwhelmed by that final battle where she fought a doze magna boys. The only reason why she survived is that it seems that the magna boys energy staff is not lethal. She got clobbered in the middle of the fight and yet survived. If it had been lightsaber "material", you'll be seeing pieces of her.

Conclusion. 1 vs 1, Magna boys lose. 3 vs 1, the Jed sweats. Much more than that Jed K.O.

Okay, okay, point. It shows that you'd need superior numbers of specialized anti-Jedi droids armed with Jedi-proof Jedi-whacker sticks to kill/defeat Jedi. Jedi Jedi Jedi.

True. Most of the Jedi at AOTC were Form 6. But what I meant was that we've never seen Form 6 dueling before. From what I read, I think Dooku will K.O. a form 6 jedi in under one minute.

And does Dooku jump around and do flashy shit? Does he go super fast and hit things like a tennis player dosed up on steroids and sugar? No. He fights more like Vader.

*crazy Jedi forms figure eights in the air with his fancy light sabre then he jumps and cartwheels and somersaults*

*Dooku/Vader makes a simple thrust and stabs the guy*

[Rommie2006]

Sigh. Let's just say I saw the ROTS pre production documentary in the OT DVD. No spoilers here, but the Obi vs Anakin fight is blindingly fast. So after you've seen that, i doubt you'll ever go against the claim that vader fights like a crippled old man.

Oh, so just because in ROTS we see Vader fight blindingly fast and maybe jump around a couple of times means that in the OT he fights like a crippled old man even though he's actually fighting like an uncrippled professional swordsman wearing a Darth Vader costume?

Not true. Shakti held her own vs 1 magna boy. 2 perhaps, 3 even. But she lost when she was overwhelmed by that final battle where she fought a doze magna boys. The only reason why she survived is that it seems that the magna boys energy staff is not lethal. She got clobbered in the middle of the fight and yet survived. If it had been lightsaber "material", you'll be seeing pieces of her.

Conclusion. 1 vs 1, Magna boys lose. 3 vs 1, the Jed sweats. Much more than that Jed K.O.

Okay, okay, point. It shows that you'd need superior numbers of specialized anti-Jedi droids armed with Jedi-proof Jedi-whacker sticks to kill/defeat Jedi. Jedi Jedi Jedi.

True. Most of the Jedi at AOTC were Form 6. But what I meant was that we've never seen Form 6 dueling before. From what I read, I think Dooku will K.O. a form 6 jedi in under one minute.

And does Dooku jump around and do flashy shit? Does he go super fast and hit things like a tennis player dosed up on steroids and sugar? No. He fights more like Vader.

*crazy Jedi forms figure eights in the air with his fancy light sabre then he jumps and cartwheels and somersaults*

*Dooku/Vader makes a simple thrust and stabs the guy*

Whtever. I'll wait for ROTS, where I predict we will have more material to study.

I see that you are an idiot who cant take it into your thick skull that there are different types of saber styles, some may be more "flashy" or more agile/quick/rapid than others. This explains why Maul was flashier/faster than Dooku. BUT it doesnt explain Vader's lack of speed. Even for Dooku's case, he was MUCH faster than Vader or Luke ever was. Why dont you sit down and watch these two duels. Fast foward to the part where they are really fighting...
1)Dooku vs Anakin
2)Vader vs Luke
AND THEN Count the number of times the sabers hit and you'll find that OT jedi saber style is severely LACKING in speed and rapidness. No I'm necessarily referring to young Obiwan & QuiGon vs Maul that kind of speed, even Dooku saber fights are MUCH faster than anything Luke or Vader has been known to muster out. So stop sitting in bed wanking your ass off Vader and Luke.

For fuck sake go and time how long Luke takes to swing his saber, then time how long Dooku takes to do the same. Luke's speed is at least HALF of Dooku's speed

[Shroom Man 777]

I see that you are an idiot who cant take it into your thick skull that there are different types of saber styles, some may be more "flashy" or more agile/quick/rapid than others.This explains why Maul was flashier/faster than Dooku. BUT it doesnt explain Vader's lack of speed. Even for Dooku's case, he was MUCH faster than Vader or Luke ever was.

Then it could be because of Vader's style, which requires less hitting and slashing and running around and requires more patience, more concentration, more whatever. I could twirl sticks around faster and more rapidly than a kendo master in a kendo tournament, but if I fight the slow ass kendo master, I'd get my ass kicked.

Why dont you sit down and watch these two duels. Fast foward to the part where they are really fighting...
1)Dooku vs Anakin
2)Vader vs Luke

Me and my friend could play with sticks, keep on hitting each other really fast, make funny disgusting sounds with our mouths, do cartwheels, spinnings and whatever. We could make fencer guys or kendo guys look like slugs, but if we fought the fencer and kendo guys they'd make us dead.

AND THEN Count the number of times the sabers hit and you'll find that OT jedi saber style is severely LACKING in speed and rapidness. No I'm necessarily referring to young Obiwan & QuiGon vs Maul that kind of speed, even Dooku saber fights are MUCH faster than anything Luke or Vader has been known to muster out. So stop sitting in bed wanking your ass off Vader and Luke.

Not wanking. Style versus substance. The PT duels were done by stuntmen, coordinated by stunt people. The OT duels were coordinated by actual swordsmen. People who actually have experience with fencing laugh at the fighting style of the PT, it may look cool, it may look better, but that's just what it is, looks. There's more to fencing than that, the PT guys might have hit faster, might have spun around like 50rpm or something, but the fact is that if you pulled that off in a real life tournament, that "much faster" shit and the "PT rapidness" and whatever, a real fencer or kendo guy who'd move much more like Vader could kick your discoordinated ass.

And it's also been stated in novels that while they fight with sabres, they also have a battle of wills, force-whatevering each other at the same time.

[Alexus]

Rommie, you are beaten. Don't make him destroy you.

[Rommie2006]

Rommie, you are beaten. Don't make him destroy you.

I admit, it is useless to reason with pple that have 0 IQ.

[Karza]

Rommie, you are beaten. Don't make him destroy you.

I admit, it is useless to reason with pple that have 0 IQ.

And you're saying this about Shroom Man. Riiiight .

[Rommie2006]

I see that you are an idiot who cant take it into your thick skull that there are different types of saber styles, some may be more "flashy" or more agile/quick/rapid than others.This explains why Maul was flashier/faster than Dooku. BUT it doesnt explain Vader's lack of speed. Even for Dooku's case, he was MUCH faster than Vader or Luke ever was.

Then it could be because of Vader's style, which requires less hitting and slashing and running around and requires more patience, more concentration, more whatever. I could twirl sticks around faster and more rapidly than a kendo master in a kendo tournament, but if I fight the slow ass kendo master, I'd get my ass kicked.

Sigh. I see that I am talking to a wall here. Since when did Dooku ever do "twirl sticks around faster and more rapidly than a kendo master in a kendo tournament". For fuck sake you arent even listening. Vader may have a better style. He does not have the speed.

Why dont you sit down and watch these two duels. Fast foward to the part where they are really fighting...
1)Dooku vs Anakin
2)Vader vs Luke

Me and my friend could play with sticks, keep on hitting each other really fast, make funny disgusting sounds with our mouths, do cartwheels, spinnings and whatever. We could make fencer guys or kendo guys look like slugs, but if we fought the fencer and kendo guys they'd make us dead.

Obviously you've not done as I told you to. I see it's pointless debating with an IDIOT who would not even bother to go back and look at the film footage.

AND THEN Count the number of times the sabers hit and you'll find that OT jedi saber style is severely LACKING in speed and rapidness. No I'm necessarily referring to young Obiwan & QuiGon vs Maul that kind of speed, even Dooku saber fights are MUCH faster than anything Luke or Vader has been known to muster out. So stop sitting in bed wanking your ass off Vader and Luke.

Not wanking. Style versus substance. The PT duels were done by stuntmen, coordinated by stunt people. The OT duels were coordinated by actual swordsmen. People who actually have experience with fencing laugh at the fighting style of the PT, it may look cool, it may look better, but that's just what it is, looks. There's more to fencing than that, the PT guys might have hit faster, might have spun around like 50rpm or something, but the fact is that if you pulled that off in a real life tournament, that "much faster" shit and the "PT rapidness" and whatever, a real fencer or kendo guy who'd move much more like Vader could kick your discoordinated ass.

And it's also been stated in novels that while they fight with sabres, they also have a battle of wills, force-whatevering each other at the same time.

Geesh if you cant notice the great disparity in the speed of Dooku saber style vs Vader/Luke style then I cant help you if your eyes are clouded by your own illusions of grandeur.

The fact that you are condeming all PT Jedi based on *Padawan* Obi-wan and *Apprentice* Maul twirly saber styles is generalisation. Dooku had no flashy moves. He did not twirl. His feet never left the ground. He never jumped or somersaulted. Yet he executed his moves twice as fast as Vader.

DID YOU JUST GOT THAT INTO YOUR EMPTY CAVITY IN YOUR HEAD? So stop dumping that fucking crap of style vs substance. Dooku had BOTH style and substance. He used Form 2, arguably the BEST anti-jedi saber style ever devised. He was fast (not blindingly fast, but fast enough), and had the reflexes befitting of a true Jedi knight.

So why did Vader not have both??? Is it perhaps that he is indeed a crippled old cyborg which is the point I have been driving through your head all this while.

[Rommie2006]

Rommie, you are beaten. Don't make him destroy you.

I admit, it is useless to reason with pple that have 0 IQ.

And you're saying this about Shroom Man. Riiiight .

Apparently he's either an Idiot with 0 IQ or somebody who cant understand English.

[Shroom Man 777]

I WIN AGAIN!!! lol lol lol1 rotflmao!!111!11!!!!!2

Rommie, you are beaten. Don't make him destroy you.

This really makes me feel all warm and tingly inside

[Rommie2006]

I WIN AGAIN!!! lol lol lol1 rotflmao!!111!11!!!!!2

Rommie, you are beaten. Don't make him destroy you.

This really makes me feel all warm and tingly inside

Your illusions of grandeur again? It's not a matter of winning boy... it's the matter of what is right and correct.

[Shroom Man 777]

Sigh. I see that I am talking to a wall here. Since when did Dooku ever do "twirl sticks around faster and more rapidly than a kendo master in a kendo tournament". For fuck sake you arent even listening. Vader may have a better style. He does not have the speed.

And was I talking about Dooku only?

Vader doesn't need to be uber fast to be the better warrior. I recall in the Off-Topic forum, there was a thread which pitted a man who could see the world in slow motion versus a guy who was a professional fencer. Guess who won?

Obviously you've not done as I told you to. I see it's pointless debating with an IDIOT who would not even bother to go back and look at the film footage.

I don't have the films.

Geesh if you cant notice the great disparity in the speed of Dooku saber style vs Vader/Luke style then I cant help you if your eyes are clouded by your own illusions of grandeur.

The great disparity of speed won't matter if your super uber samurai maneuvers leaves lots of holes in your defenses, holes which a more experienced swordsman can exploit easily.

The fact that you are condeming all PT Jedi based on *Padawan* Obi-wan and *Apprentice* Maul twirly saber styles is generalisation. Dooku had no flashy moves. He did not twirl. His feet never left the ground. He never jumped or somersaulted. Yet he executed his moves twice as fast as Vader.

How about Qui-gon? And (Master) Obi-Wan? And Yoda? And someone already mentioned earlier that when Vader fought Luke, he was never aiming to kill the guy.

DID YOU JUST GOT THAT INTO YOUR EMPTY CAVITY IN YOUR HEAD? So stop dumping that fucking crap of style vs substance. Dooku had BOTH style and substance. He used Form 2, arguably the BEST anti-jedi saber style ever devised. He was fast (not blindingly fast, but fast enough), and had the reflexes befitting of a true Jedi knight.

So why did Vader not have both??? Is it perhaps that he is indeed a crippled old cyborg which is the point I have been driving through your head all this while.

Or none of the opponents he fought exhibited behavior of hyperactive children dosed up on sugar, therefore he didn't have to react as fast and could take his sweet time. And the fact that he wasn't trying to kill the shit out of his own son, unlike what Dooku was trying with Obi and Ani.

[Alexus]

Then I shall explain it, Rommie2006.

YOU are INcorrect, Rommers, and SHROOM MAN is CORRECT. Got it? Flashy sword techniques are stupid and Vader could beat any Prequel Jedi. So shut up. Please Rozz, give up with whatever integrity you can salvage. Don't be stubborn, Ro.

[Shroom Man 777]

I WIN AGAIN!!! lol lol lol1 rotflmao!!111!11!!!!!2

Rommie, you are beaten. Don't make him destroy you.

This really makes me feel all warm and tingly inside

Your illusions of grandeur again? It's not a matter of winning boy... it's the matter of what is right and correct.

It's a joke. And I replied before I could see your actual response to my post.

[Shroom Man 777]

Another thing I'd like to bring up:

During the duel between Ani and Dooku, the AOTC novel mentions Ani almost pwning Dooku by erecting a force wall that fucked up with Dooku. If we just watch the movies, we'd just see them trying to kill each other to pieces with their lightsabres when a lot of things are actually happening "behind the scenes".

[Karza]

Apparently he's either an Idiot with 0 IQ or somebody who cant understand English.

What was that saying... Ah, yes: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Or something like that.

It's over. You lost.

[Rommie2006]

Then I shall explain it, Rommie2006.

YOU are INcorrect, Rommers, and SHROOM MAN is CORRECT. Got it? Flashy sword techniques are stupid and Vader could beat any Prequel Jedi. So shut up. Please Rozz, give up with whatever integrity you can salvage. Don't be stubborn, Ro.

Fuck off dipshit. We will never know if Vader will beat any PT Jedi. Until it is shown on screen. Until I see Vader slowly chopping his way through Jedi. What you have is just SPECULATION. We have a difference in opinion. Deal with it. Dont lose any sleep over it.

[Lone_Prodigy]

Your illusions of grandeur again? It's not a matter of winning boy... it's the matter of what is right and correct.

Such as... experienced swordfighters such as Darth Vader not fighting like idiots?

[Alexus]

r0mMi3 has n0t p0st3d in 2 m1nut3s he/sh3 l0s3es! LOL!!11!1!!

[Shroom Man 777]

Alexus, let's not spam, okay? Let's just insert the "lol" stuff in posts with actual content, the Mods would appreciate that more.

EDIT:

And Vader is not that fricking slow. He and Obi and Luke in the OT moved like people in an actual swordfight.

[Alexus]

I retract my statement about n0t p0st1ng. Since you did.

And Rommers (Can I call you Rommers? I think I will.) I know we have a difference of opinion. What I disagree with most is your style of debate. You are just behaving irrationally.

[Rommie2006]

Sigh. I see that I am talking to a wall here. Since when did Dooku ever do "twirl sticks around faster and more rapidly than a kendo master in a kendo tournament". For fuck sake you arent even listening. Vader may have a better style. He does not have the speed.

And was I talking about Dooku only?

Vader doesn't need to be uber fast to be the better warrior. I recall in the Off-Topic forum, there was a thread which pitted a man who could see the world in slow motion versus a guy who was a professional fencer. Guess who won?

*I* WAS referring to Dooku, read my last post. I admit that Form 4 QuiGon and ObiWan *MAY* lose to slow Vader (but this I am still very skeptical).
And I don't give a shit about what off-topic discussions you have. Just because you won, and it becomes a law? Oh please....

Obviously you've not done as I told you to. I see it's pointless debating with an IDIOT who would not even bother to go back and look at the film footage.

I don't have the films.

Sorry to hear that. I think your memory is failing then. Even Lucas specifically said that both Vader and Luke were severely outclassed by PT Jedi. Fancy moves aside, their reflexes and moves were still TOO SLOW to keep up with PT Jedi.

Geesh if you cant notice the great disparity in the speed of Dooku saber style vs Vader/Luke style then I cant help you if your eyes are clouded by your own illusions of grandeur.

The great disparity of speed won't matter if your super uber samurai maneuvers leaves lots of holes in your defenses, holes which a more experienced swordsman can exploit easily.

Haiz. I see you cant understand English. Ok then I put it in simple words, a challenge to you:
Vader vs Dooku, who wins? My take goes for Dooku. Feel free to disagree

The fact that you are condeming all PT Jedi based on *Padawan* Obi-wan and *Apprentice* Maul twirly saber styles is generalisation. Dooku had no flashy moves. He did not twirl. His feet never left the ground. He never jumped or somersaulted. Yet he executed his moves twice as fast as Vader.

How about Qui-gon? And (Master) Obi-Wan? And Yoda? And someone already mentioned earlier that when Vader fought Luke, he was never aiming to kill the guy.

Master Qui-Gon and Master Obi-Wan both did NOT have flashy twirly moves(if my memory serve me correctly). As both are experienced warriors, I say either of one could have own Vader. As for Yoda his flashy twirly moves probably suited his short stature. And yes in OT Vader may have been holding back against Luke. But until we see otherwise, I am assuming that Vader was only as good as what we see on screen.

DID YOU JUST GOT THAT INTO YOUR EMPTY CAVITY IN YOUR HEAD? So stop dumping that fucking crap of style vs substance. Dooku had BOTH style and substance. He used Form 2, arguably the BEST anti-jedi saber style ever devised. He was fast (not blindingly fast, but fast enough), and had the reflexes befitting of a true Jedi knight.

So why did Vader not have both??? Is it perhaps that he is indeed a crippled old cyborg which is the point I have been driving through your head all this while.

Or none of the opponents he fought exhibited behavior of hyperactive children dosed up on sugar, therefore he didn't have to react as fast and could take his sweet time. And the fact that he wasn't trying to kill the shit out of his own son, unlike what Dooku was trying with Obi and Ani.

Both cases are possible. All the real Jedi would be dead by then, and he was holding back on Luke. OR it could be that he was not as fast/agile as before. Why cant you accept to OTHER possibility? You seriously need to learn to open up to other ideas and possibilities.