Clone Wars Chapter 21 to 25, revelations on Jedi vs Droid

[Rommie2006]

I retract my statement about n0t p0st1ng. Since you did.

And Rommers (Can I call you Rommers? I think I will.) I know we have a difference of opinion. What I disagree with most is your style of debate. You are just behaving irrationally.

Perhaps that's what you think. Or maybe it's the side effect of trying to get a point across to an individual, when after a dozen posts he/she still doesnt get the point.

[Alexus]

Rommers, that was a much better post. I applaud your lack of Trollishness. I still disagree, but i'll let Shroom Man continue.

[Rommie2006]

Alexus, let's not spam, okay? Let's just insert the "lol" stuff in posts with actual content, the Mods would appreciate that more.

EDIT:

And Vader is not that fricking slow. He and Obi and Luke in the OT moved like people in an actual swordfight.

OK. Was not that what I said? Obi, Luke and Vader in OT moved like peole (NORMAL PEOPLE) in a actual swordfight. Jedi are supposed to move and fight much more swiftly and quickly! That's why I am "condenming" OT Jedi. They arent up to Jedi standards.

I think you are using normal Earth swordfighting technique as a basis of judgement in this discussion. I am using an expectation that is much higher than plain Earth swordfighting styles.

[Rommie2006]

Alexus, let's not spam, okay? Let's just insert the "lol" stuff in posts with actual content, the Mods would appreciate that more.

EDIT:

And Vader is not that fricking slow. He and Obi and Luke in the OT moved like people in an actual swordfight.

OK. Was not that what I said? Obi, Luke and Vader in OT moved like peole (NORMAL PEOPLE) in a actual swordfight. Jedi are supposed to move and fight much more swiftly and quickly! That's why I am "condenming" OT Jedi. They arent up to Jedi standards.

[Alexus]

The LOL etc. was a joke, but this is a serious thread, so.

OK. Was not that what I said? Obi, Luke and Vader in OT moved like peole (NORMAL PEOPLE) in a actual swordfight. Jedi are supposed to move and fighte much more swiftly and quickly! That's why I am "condenming" OT Jedi. They arent up to Jedi standards.

In Star Wars everyone speaks basic. We hear it as English. How do we know they aren't really moving a super speed? Although this is is quite a weak argument.

[Rommie2006]

Rommers, that was a much better post. I applaud your lack of Trollishness. I still disagree, but i'll let Shroom Man continue.

Thanks.

[Rommie2006]

The LOL etc. was a joke, but this is a serious thread, so.

OK. Was not that what I said? Obi, Luke and Vader in OT moved like peole (NORMAL PEOPLE) in a actual swordfight. Jedi are supposed to move and fighte much more swiftly and quickly! That's why I am "condenming" OT Jedi. They arent up to Jedi standards.

In Star Wars everyone speaks basic. We hear it as English. How do we know they aren't really moving a super speed? Although this is is quite a weak argument.

I see so the OT saber battles are shown at 1/2 speed in the movie, and the PT saber duels are shown at 2X speed in the movies. OK....

[Alexus]

No, the OT fights could just be representing a fast battle. Hell, when you watch ROTJ do you call the battle

"The Battle of Matte Painting, in which many airfix kits were destroyed?"

And when you see X-Wings flying around like aeroplanes without a regard for the laws of physics, is that because of a Tri Phased Quantum Flux Inhibitor Field? No, it represents a spacecraft in flight.

Why does my head hurt? Should I see a doctor about that?

[Crazedwraith]

Alexus, let's not spam, okay? Let's just insert the "lol" stuff in posts with actual content, the Mods would appreciate that more.

EDIT:

And Vader is not that fricking slow. He and Obi and Luke in the OT moved like people in an actual swordfight.

OK. Was not that what I said? Obi, Luke and Vader in OT moved like peole (NORMAL PEOPLE) in a actual swordfight. Jedi are supposed to move and fight much more swiftly and quickly! That's why I am "condenming" OT Jedi. They arent up to Jedi standards.

I think you are using normal Earth swordfighting technique as a basis of judgement in this discussion. I am using an expectation that is much higher than plain Earth swordfighting styles.

I think the point is that no matter how fast a PT Jedi moves they're technique is shit and leaves gaping holes that any decent modern day swordsman could exploit.

[Stark]

Or even guys with guns. Hopefully portraying the Jedi as unsuited for battle and foolish is intentional on ole GLs part.

[SCRawl]

There is a school of thought which goes something like this: Force-users don't really leave all that many "holes" to exploit, but rather, they know they aren't going to be attacked there at all. Force-users can see a little ways into the future, after all, and if they know that their left flank (for example) isn't going to be attacked, then they can feel free to leave it exposed with impunity. For such warriors as these, one would think that style would be practically irrelevant.

Of course, this brings into question how combat ever gets resolved between combatants who know what's going to happen. My personal theory is that the battle is far more than the physical one which we get to see on the screen. After all, as Master Yoda said, "luminous beings we are, not this crude matter."

Just interjecting my ten cents (adjusted for inflation and exchange).

[Shroom Man 777]

*I* WAS referring to Dooku, read my last post. I admit that Form 4 QuiGon and ObiWan *MAY* lose to slow Vader (but this I am still very skeptical).
And I don't give a shit about what off-topic discussions you have. Just because you won, and it becomes a law? Oh please....

You mentioned Maul. And I didn't win in that off-topic discussion, in fact, I wasn't even in it. I just watched while a bunch of people who actually knew how to use swords discussed on how the swordsman would mop the floor with the bullet-time boy.

And you should give a shit, it's 'precedent'. Lawyers and judges use that kind of thing. But whatever.

Obviously you've not done as I told you to. I see it's pointless debating with an IDIOT who would not even bother to go back and look at the film footage.

I don't have the films.

Sorry to hear that. I think your memory is failing then. Even Lucas specifically said that both Vader and Luke were severely outclassed by PT Jedi. Fancy moves aside, their reflexes and moves were still TOO SLOW to keep up with PT Jedi.

Why? What we see in TPM and AOTC, aside from Yoda, are normal people swinging sabres at normal speeds, its just that they're doing so fancily. The guys in the OT were normal people moving their sabres normally, but they weren't doing it fancily, they were doing it conservatively, like real swordsmen. Wasting moves, going ahead half-cocked while exposing yourself, not calculating things enough, all that could get you killed. Keep it simple, that's what a previous poster said. He also likened swordfighting to a chess game.

Haiz. I see you cant understand English. Ok then I put it in simple words, a challenge to you:
Vader vs Dooku, who wins? My take goes for Dooku. Feel free to disagree

I feel free to disagree and do. Disagree.

Master Qui-Gon and Master Obi-Wan both did NOT have flashy twirly moves(if my memory serve me correctly). As both are experienced warriors, I say either of one could have own Vader. As for Yoda his flashy twirly moves probably suited his short stature. And yes in OT Vader may have been holding back against Luke. But until we see otherwise, I am assuming that Vader was only as good as what we see on screen.

Vader is more experienced than them, remember that. And I already mentioned, it's not just what you see, it's also what you can't see. That's another reason (or excuse) why PT Jedi can do fancy tricks that leave them open in so many places, because while they're clashing blades, they're also clashing wills.

And Vader WAS holding back against Luke. His explicit intention was to convert him, not kill him. Then when Luke went berserk in ROTJ, Vader switched to defense mode, not kill mode. The only time V was trying to kill Luke was in ANH, when Luke was in his X-wing and he was in his TIE.

Both cases are possible. All the real Jedi would be dead by then, and he was holding back on Luke. OR it could be that he was not as fast/agile as before. Why cant you accept to OTHER possibility? You seriously need to learn to open up to other ideas and possibilities.

Vader's just too cool for that

Though yeah, Vader could've been a hobbling crippling old man, but that just sucks.

OK. Was not that what I said? Obi, Luke and Vader in OT moved like peole (NORMAL PEOPLE) in a actual swordfight. Jedi are supposed to move and fight much more swiftly and quickly! That's why I am "condenming" OT Jedi. They arent up to Jedi standards.

What? You said V was moving like an old crippled hobo giant slug monster (I'm paraphrasing, but the point still stands).

And when I watch AOTC, when Anakin was trying to kill Dooku with his two sabres and when Dooku was defending himself, and when Dooku slashed off Ani's head (arm), I didn't see any super speed super duper duper super speed-speedos, they were moving as fast as two actors holding fancy glowing things told to hit each other. The difference between AOTC and the OT ones was that, because stunt coordinators coordinated the swordfights in the PT while real life living swordsmen who do swordsmaning for a real living were coordinating, the AOTC guys were doing things in a less thought out, less patient, less calculating manner, more erratic and more faster. Just like a couple of kids swinging rolled up newspaper while making funny sounds with their mouths. The OT guys were actually real swordsmen trying to make a credible swordsfight.

I think you are using normal Earth swordfighting technique as a basis of judgement in this discussion. I am using an expectation that is much higher than plain Earth swordfighting styles.

Then why bother with how fast they swing their swords when you want something beyond this plane of existence? It's canon that sabre fights are more than sword swinging contests, they bust their cocks trying to slow each other down, predict each other, and such stuff. The AOTC novel mentions Ani almost pwning Dooku by traping him in a force wall. But Dooku broke out of it and broke Ani's balls. Figuratively. And that (using invisible pixie powers to try and prevent/cause your/their testicles to break while swordfighting) is as higher or further or lower or faster than plain Earth swordfighting as you can get. Without an acid trip. Or zombies.

[Rommie2006]

Alexus, let's not spam, okay? Let's just insert the "lol" stuff in posts with actual content, the Mods would appreciate that more.

EDIT:

And Vader is not that fricking slow. He and Obi and Luke in the OT moved like people in an actual swordfight.

OK. Was not that what I said? Obi, Luke and Vader in OT moved like peole (NORMAL PEOPLE) in a actual swordfight. Jedi are supposed to move and fight much more swiftly and quickly! That's why I am "condenming" OT Jedi. They arent up to Jedi standards.

I think you are using normal Earth swordfighting technique as a basis of judgement in this discussion. I am using an expectation that is much higher than plain Earth swordfighting styles.

I think the point is that no matter how fast a PT Jedi moves they're technique is shit and leaves gaping holes that any decent modern day swordsman could exploit.

You see my point? You guys are judging saber techniques on your knowledge of modern day swordfighting techniques. It is simply NOT relevant here. We are talking about Jedi, they have superhuman reflexes and agility not to mention pre-cognition as well. A real jedi vs any human in a sword fight, would result in the jedi winning, because they can predict the next strike so your point on the holes doesnt stand.

[Rommie2006]

*I* WAS referring to Dooku, read my last post. I admit that Form 4 QuiGon and ObiWan *MAY* lose to slow Vader (but this I am still very skeptical).
And I don't give a shit about what off-topic discussions you have. Just because you won, and it becomes a law? Oh please....

You mentioned Maul. And I didn't win in that off-topic discussion, in fact, I wasn't even in it. I just watched while a bunch of people who actually knew how to use swords discussed on how the swordsman would mop the floor with the bullet-time boy.

And you should give a shit, it's 'precedent'. Lawyers and judges use that kind of thing. But whatever.

Ok fine. Maul vs Vader, I'm not too sure who will win. But my take is that if Vader cant keep up with Maul's attack frenzy, he's toast. And refer to my previous post pls, you cant quote modern day analysis on swordfighting on Jedi, because the subjects we are talking about a not mere humans. They are Jedi.

Obviously you've not done as I told you to. I see it's pointless debating with an IDIOT who would not even bother to go back and look at the film footage.

I don't have the films.

Sorry to hear that. I think your memory is failing then. Even Lucas specifically said that both Vader and Luke were severely outclassed by PT Jedi. Fancy moves aside, their reflexes and moves were still TOO SLOW to keep up with PT Jedi.

Why? What we see in TPM and AOTC, aside from Yoda, are normal people swinging sabres at normal speeds, its just that they're doing so fancily. The guys in the OT were normal people moving their sabres normally, but they weren't doing it fancily, they were doing it conservatively, like real swordsmen. Wasting moves, going ahead half-cocked while exposing yourself, not calculating things enough, all that could get you killed. Keep it simple, that's what a previous poster said. He also likened swordfighting to a chess game.

I disagree. PT jedi moves are much faster. The time they take to strike, the numbers of strikes they execute. Hell they even swing their blades much faster and respond much faster to deflect an incoming blow.

Haiz. I see you cant understand English. Ok then I put it in simple words, a challenge to you:
Vader vs Dooku, who wins? My take goes for Dooku. Feel free to disagree

I feel free to disagree and do. Disagree.

We'll so we have our own opinions. I'm fine with that.

Master Qui-Gon and Master Obi-Wan both did NOT have flashy twirly moves(if my memory serve me correctly). As both are experienced warriors, I say either of one could have own Vader. As for Yoda his flashy twirly moves probably suited his short stature. And yes in OT Vader may have been holding back against Luke. But until we see otherwise, I am assuming that Vader was only as good as what we see on screen.

Vader is more experienced than them, remember that. And I already mentioned, it's not just what you see, it's also what you can't see. That's another reason (or excuse) why PT Jedi can do fancy tricks that leave them open in so many places, because while they're clashing blades, they're also clashing wills.

I'm not too sure of this. It's pure speculation and not supported by onfilm evidence. And I think Master Quigon and Master Obiwan have just as much experience as Vader. If you want somebody with experience, you're looking at Yoda, Mace and Dooku that bunch.

And Vader WAS holding back against Luke. His explicit intention was to convert him, not kill him. Then when Luke went berserk in ROTJ, Vader switched to defense mode, not kill mode. The only time V was trying to kill Luke was in ANH, when Luke was in his X-wing and he was in his TIE.

Ok fine. You've convinced me. But it doesnt show exactly how Vader is like when he's not holding back in a duel, or what he is capable of.

Both cases are possible. All the real Jedi would be dead by then, and he was holding back on Luke. OR it could be that he was not as fast/agile as before. Why cant you accept to OTHER possibility? You seriously need to learn to open up to other ideas and possibilities.

Vader's just too cool for that

Though yeah, Vader could've been a hobbling crippling old man, but that just sucks.

So now you finally admit your bias and subjective viewpoint in this discussion? That's refreshing. Nice of you to admit that your OT wanking has clouded your judgement.

OK. Was not that what I said? Obi, Luke and Vader in OT moved like peole (NORMAL PEOPLE) in a actual swordfight. Jedi are supposed to move and fight much more swiftly and quickly! That's why I am "condenming" OT Jedi. They arent up to Jedi standards.

What? You said V was moving like an old crippled hobo giant slug monster (I'm paraphrasing, but the point still stands).

If you interpreted cripple literally then I have nothing to say. Cripple as a metaphor with reference to PT jedi. Do I need to really define every word I say....

And when I watch AOTC, when Anakin was trying to kill Dooku with his two sabres and when Dooku was defending himself, and when Dooku slashed off Ani's head (arm), I didn't see any super speed super duper duper super speed-speedos, they were moving as fast as two actors holding fancy glowing things told to hit each other. The difference between AOTC and the OT ones was that, because stunt coordinators coordinated the swordfights in the PT while real life living swordsmen who do swordsmaning for a real living were coordinating, the AOTC guys were doing things in a less thought out, less patient, less calculating manner, more erratic and more faster. Just like a couple of kids swinging rolled up newspaper while making funny sounds with their mouths. The OT guys were actually real swordsmen trying to make a credible swordsfight.

Not super-duper speed and reflexes like in Maul's duel back in TPM, but they were fast ENOUGH, as I have mentioned earlier. (you have a problem reading English do you?) PT Jedis are clearly at least one LEVEL faster than OT Jedi.

I think you are using normal Earth swordfighting technique as a basis of judgement in this discussion. I am using an expectation that is much higher than plain Earth swordfighting styles.

Then why bother with how fast they swing their swords when you want something beyond this plane of existence? It's canon that sabre fights are more than sword swinging contests, they bust their cocks trying to slow each other down, predict each other, and such stuff. The AOTC novel mentions Ani almost pwning Dooku by traping him in a force wall. But Dooku broke out of it and broke Ani's balls. Figuratively. And that (using invisible pixie powers to try and prevent/cause your/their testicles to break while swordfighting) is as higher or further or lower or faster than plain Earth swordfighting as you can get. Without an acid trip. Or zombies.

I bother because Jedi are supposed to have better reflexes than normal humans. And for Vader's case it was not so. So i asked WHY.

And your point with the nice figurative description above totally eludes me.

[Rommie2006]

OK. Was not that what I said? Obi, Luke and Vader in OT moved like peole (NORMAL PEOPLE) in a actual swordfight. Jedi are supposed to move and fight much more swiftly and quickly! That's why I am "condenming" OT Jedi. They arent up to Jedi standards.

I think you are using normal Earth swordfighting technique as a basis of judgement in this discussion. I am using an expectation that is much higher than plain Earth swordfighting styles.

I think the point is that no matter how fast a PT Jedi moves they're technique is shit and leaves gaping holes that any decent modern day swordsman could exploit.

You see my point? You guys are judging saber techniques on your knowledge of modern day swordfighting techniques. It is simply NOT relevant here. We are talking about Jedi, they have superhuman reflexes and agility not to mention pre-cognition as well. A real jedi vs any human in a sword fight, would result in the jedi winning, because they can predict the next strike so your point on the holes doesnt stand. So I dont really care if your opponent has the uber technique, cos the Jedi can predict his next move...

ok damn double post

[NecronLord]

Jedi don't all see the future. That is actually a rare gift, only the most powerful have it - like Anakin, the rest would not be able to podrace - and this foresight craps out in combat now and then, as is confirmed by the Ep3 novellisation.

[Ghost Rider]

And it's shown in the AoTC novel, that the clashing of the Force is not speculation but canon thought. Dooku was amazed how much Anakin used, but realized he had mostly power but very little style.

[Rommie2006]

Jedi don't all see the future. That is actually a rare gift, only the most powerful have it - like Anakin, the rest would not be able to podrace - and this foresight craps out in combat now and then, as is confirmed by the Ep3 novellisation.

I was more referring to precognition in my discussion. You know spider sense thingy... not crystal ball prophecy.

[Rommie2006]

And it's shown in the AoTC novel, that the clashing of the Force is not speculation but canon thought. Dooku was amazed how much Anakin used, but realized he had mostly power but very little style.

Point taken.

[Shroom Man 777]

Ok fine. Maul vs Vader, I'm not too sure who will win. But my take is that if Vader cant keep up with Maul's attack frenzy, he's toast. And refer to my previous post pls, you cant quote modern day analysis on swordfighting on Jedi, because the subjects we are talking about a not mere humans. They are Jedi.

Then you also can't just judge them by how fancy they fling their swords around, reflexes and whatnot. They're Jedi. One guy can do all fancy, it won't matter if the technique sucks, he's a Jedi. If a Jedi uses a realistic technique, well...good for him, he's a Jedi too, so...who knows? I don't know. Do you know? Are you who? No. Get outta here, you don't know. Who knows. WHO AM I?!

I disagree. PT jedi moves are much faster. The time they take to strike, the numbers of strikes they execute. Hell they even swing their blades much faster and respond much faster to deflect an incoming blow.

Then you can say I'm much faster than a pro fencer or a kendoist when I flail around a rolled up newspaper and make disgusting sounds with my mouth and crap.

We'll so we have our own opinions. I'm fine with that.

I disagree

I'm not too sure of this. It's pure speculation and not supported by onfilm evidence. And I think Master Quigon and Master Obiwan have just as much experience as Vader. If you want somebody with experience, you're looking at Yoda, Mace and Dooku that bunch.

Vader, Vader is also experienced. He's the fucking Lord of the Sith. Fucking fuck fuck! And I'm basing this "clash of the wills" shit on stuff people quoted from the AOTC book.

Ok fine. You've convinced me. But it doesnt show exactly how Vader is like when he's not holding back in a duel, or what he is capable of.

Then stop dissing the coolest guy in SW!

So now you finally admit your bias and subjective viewpoint in this discussion? That's refreshing. Nice of you to admit that your OT wanking has clouded your judgement.

What? Does it make all my arguements un-right just because I like Vader and shit? We all have our viewpoints. Mike Wong hates religion, but is he wrong because he's biased when he says evolution is true and creationism is not?

If you interpreted cripple literally then I have nothing to say. Cripple as a metaphor with reference to PT jedi. Do I need to really define every word I say....

Yes. Start defining every word you've said in this thread. NOW!


Nah, just kidding.

Not super-duper speed and reflexes like in Maul's duel back in TPM, but they were fast ENOUGH, as I have mentioned earlier. (you have a problem reading English do you?) PT Jedis are clearly at least one LEVEL faster than OT Jedi.

Maul wasn't going 'super-duper', he was as fast as the actor who was flailing a glowy stick while trying to look cool (while not making funny sounds with his mouth, sadly). They didn't do CG shit to make him look uber fast. My statement you quoted still applies.

Just because Maul's actor looked super duper fast in that scene doesn't mean Maul's actor was superhuman or whatever. And it doesn't mean he'll fare any good against a kendo or fencer guy.

I bother because Jedi are supposed to have better reflexes than normal humans. And for Vader's case it was not so. So i asked WHY.

Maybe he didn't need to go uber fast. Maybe, like a fencer, he can go uber fast and twirl around the sabre and make funny noises with his respirator, but just like a fencer, he doesn't when he's in a duel. A fencer could do the stuff Maul's stuntman did, but he doesn't do it in a fencing. With your arguement, you could say Maul's stuntman has better reflexes than a fencer, and could beat the fencer in a fencing duel. Which is not so.

And your point with the nice figurative description above totally eludes me.

Well, you mentioned something about a higher plane of existence, un-earthliness, standards that should not be grounded on our planet. And I provided, citing that in every Jedi/Sith duel, they are actually doing fancy invisible stuff with their Force powers. And that's pretty damned unearthly.

Yeah, I could've stated it in a simpler way. But it was funner doing it that way, with all the ball crushing and stuff.

And you could say that because of Anakin's superior foresight, he didn't need to twirl around uber fast. He'll know when you'll hit, where, how, who, what, where and so forth.

[Rommie2006]

SO IN CONCLUSION (this thread has gone waaayy off topic from what I intended)

1)Vader was likely to be holding back in all his 3 duels in OT for whatever reasons. This I agree. BUT it does not tell us of his "upper limit" powers. Perhaps he can fight faster, but toned down to play with ObiWan and Luke. If this is the case, then my case is closed.
OR Perhaps he cant fight faster, because of his armor/injury/cybernetics. Then as before in my very first post I ask WHY. Since from clone wars we know that SW robotics/cybernetics tech can come close to match a jedi reflexes.

2)Flashy moves in term of excessive blade spiraling and twirling is generally NOT good. This I agree. That is why we have only seen such flashy moves in young padawan obiwan and sith apprentice maul. My point is that we've never see real Jedi masters do excessive twirling. HOWEVER, when Jedi do jump around and do flips, it is PART of the Form 4 saber technique that explicitly relies on such acrobatics to win a duel. I admit after some consideration, Form 4 may not be a very good style unless you are a Yoda, so I concede this point. However, i must still insist that NOT ALL PT Jedi are Form 4 trained, so do not make baseless generalisations. And for those of you who insist that anything but OT-style slow-paced contemporary saber fights constitute flashy, then it seems that we have a clash of definitions.

3)I still think PT jedi are much faster/agile than OT jedi, which is my main assertion of why OT jedi suck. There are those ultrafast Form 4 PT jedi like young obiwan and maul, whose style MAY leave them vulnerable and open to attacks. However, the typical PT jedi trained in other forms are still significant faster than any OT jedi. If you cant agree with this point then I cant help you there.

[Shroom Man 777]

SO IN CONCLUSION (this thread has gone waaayy off topic from what I intended)

1)Vader was likely to be holding back in all his 3 duels in OT for whatever reasons. This I agree. BUT it does not tell us of his "upper limit" powers. Perhaps he can fight faster, but toned down to play with ObiWan and Luke. If this is the case, then my case is closed.
OR Perhaps he cant fight faster, because of his armor/injury/cybernetics. Then as before in my very first post I ask WHY. Since from clone wars we know that SW robotics/cybernetics tech can come close to match a jedi reflexes.

Yes.

2)Flashy moves in term of excessive blade spiraling and twirling is generally NOT good. This I agree. That is why we have only seen such flashy moves in young padawan obiwan and sith apprentice maul. My point is that we've never see real Jedi masters do excessive twirling. HOWEVER, when Jedi do jump around and do flips, it is PART of the Form 4 saber technique that explicitly relies on such acrobatics to win a duel. I admit after some consideration, Form 4 may not be a very good style unless you are a Yoda, so I concede this point. However, i must still insist that NOT ALL PT Jedi are Form 4 trained, so do not make baseless generalisations. And for those of you who insist that anything but OT-style slow-paced contemporary saber fights constitute flashy, then it seems that we have a clash of definitions.

I for one think Dooku was pretty cool, his technique. Specially when he duels with Grevious in the Clone Wars cartoons. God, I love it.

And weren't those Form 4 flashy techniques optimized for blaster deflecting? If so, then that'd be logical, seeing as how Jedi rarely duel since the Sith were supposedly extinct, also, when a Jedi fights, it's almost always against dudes with blasters.

3)I still think PT jedi are much faster/agile than OT jedi, which is my main assertion of why OT jedi suck. There are those ultrafast Form 4 PT jedi like young obiwan and maul, whose style MAY leave them vulnerable and open to attacks. However, the typical PT jedi trained in other forms are still significant faster than any OT jedi. If you cant agree with this point then I cant help you there.

Well, fine. But personally, this is because OT Jedi prefer slower paced, more "realistic" stuff, more on the calculation, chess and Force duel of the Wills thing.

[McC]

Edit note: This was posted before I saw Rommie's "in conclusion" post. It still applies to point #3 in his post.

*sigh* This is still going?

Rommie, look. We have two Jedi standing in a room (Jedi A and Jedi B). They are facing, for the sake of argument, droids that can block each strike they make.

Jedi A initiates a blindingly fast series of strikes, hitting his opponent thirty times in the span of ten seconds before he realizes his attacks are moot and will always be blocked.

Jedi B strikes twice and then pauses to consider his opponent.

The outcome is the same. Jedi A wasted more energy. Jedi B is more relaxed. Jedi B is therefore superior, because his technique is more refined.

Jedi A is ye olde PT Jedi with their fancy, fast saber-fighting. Jedi B is Vader.

Get it now? This entire argument is about the speed at which Vader can move, and the degree to which he is a 'cripple' compared to PT Jedi. You're saying Vader can't move at the speed of the PT Jedi. We're saying he simply doesn't need to. You have zero evidence indicating that Vader is restricted to moving as fast as he does. Furthermore, you keep touting ROTS as the deciding factor here. It won't change a fucking thing. Anakin will fight Obi-Wan as fast as Obi-Wan and Anakin choose to exchange blows. His speed in ROTS still does not inform either way his speed as Vader in the OT. Case closed, you lose.

[Rommie2006]

Ok fine. Maul vs Vader, I'm not too sure who will win. But my take is that if Vader cant keep up with Maul's attack frenzy, he's toast. And refer to my previous post pls, you cant quote modern day analysis on swordfighting on Jedi, because the subjects we are talking about a not mere humans. They are Jedi.

Then you also can't just judge them by how fancy they fling their swords around, reflexes and whatnot. They're Jedi. One guy can do all fancy, it won't matter if the technique sucks, he's a Jedi. If a Jedi uses a realistic technique, well...good for him, he's a Jedi too, so...who knows? I don't know. Do you know? Are you who? No. Get outta here, you don't know. Who knows. WHO AM I?!

Pretending to be an idiot isnt getting you anywhere. My point was not to be overly restricted by modern swordfighting techniques.

I disagree. PT jedi moves are much faster. The time they take to strike, the numbers of strikes they execute. Hell they even swing their blades much faster and respond much faster to deflect an incoming blow.

Then you can say I'm much faster than a pro fencer or a kendoist when I flail around a rolled up newspaper and make disgusting sounds with my mouth and crap.

Making an irrelevant statement doesnt change the fact that my observation of PT jedi faster than OT jedi is correct. It just comes to show what an idiot you are.

We'll so we have our own opinions. I'm fine with that.

I disagree

Go cry then.

I'm not too sure of this. It's pure speculation and not supported by onfilm evidence. And I think Master Quigon and Master Obiwan have just as much experience as Vader. If you want somebody with experience, you're looking at Yoda, Mace and Dooku that bunch.

Vader, Vader is also experienced. He's the fucking Lord of the Sith. Fucking fuck fuck! And I'm basing this "clash of the wills" shit on stuff people quoted from the AOTC book.

Fine. Fine. I'm not going to argue who is more experienced.

Ok fine. You've convinced me. But it doesnt show exactly how Vader is like when he's not holding back in a duel, or what he is capable of.

Then stop dissing the coolest guy in SW!

Hey I'm a Vader fan too. Unlike you I maintain some objectivity here.

So now you finally admit your bias and subjective viewpoint in this discussion? That's refreshing. Nice of you to admit that your OT wanking has clouded your judgement.

What? Does it make all my arguements un-right just because I like Vader and shit? We all have our viewpoints. Mike Wong hates religion, but is he wrong because he's biased when he says evolution is true and creationism is not?

No it makes you unable to see the facts except for those you want to see. It clouds your mind from the big picture and it gives you the tendency to wank over Vader and believe he is the uber unbeatable invincible sith lord.

Not super-duper speed and reflexes like in Maul's duel back in TPM, but they were fast ENOUGH, as I have mentioned earlier. (you have a problem reading English do you?) PT Jedis are clearly at least one LEVEL faster than OT Jedi.

Maul wasn't going 'super-duper', he was as fast as the actor who was flailing a glowy stick while trying to look cool (while not making funny sounds with his mouth, sadly). They didn't do CG shit to make him look uber fast. My statement you quoted still applies.

Just because Maul's actor looked super duper fast in that scene doesn't mean Maul's actor was superhuman or whatever. And it doesn't mean he'll fare any good against a kendo or fencer guy.

More irrelevant shit. Go and watch AOTC, TPM and ROTJ for fuck sake before talking to me.

I bother because Jedi are supposed to have better reflexes than normal humans. And for Vader's case it was not so. So i asked WHY.

Maybe he didn't need to go uber fast. Maybe, like a fencer, he can go uber fast and twirl around the sabre and make funny noises with his respirator, but just like a fencer, he doesn't when he's in a duel. A fencer could do the stuff Maul's stuntman did, but he doesn't do it in a fencing. With your arguement, you could say Maul's stuntman has better reflexes than a fencer, and could beat the fencer in a fencing duel. Which is not so.

If you cant differentiate FICTIONAL JEDI from real life cast and actors you are hopelessly deluded.

And your point with the nice figurative description above totally eludes me.

Well, you mentioned something about a higher plane of existence, un-earthliness, standards that should not be grounded on our planet. And I provided, citing that in every Jedi/Sith duel, they are actually doing fancy invisible stuff with their Force powers. And that's pretty damned unearthly.

Yeah, I could've stated it in a simpler way. But it was funner doing it that way, with all the ball crushing and stuff.

And you could say that because of Anakin's superior foresight, he didn't need to twirl around uber fast. He'll know when you'll hit, where, how, who, what, where and so forth.

IDIOT. If I knew my opponent was going to strike me from the left, and I move my saber to counter, but I am too slow to raise my saber in time do you think precognition would matter? What I have been saying all along if Dooku came around and start sabering Vader can Vader deflect the incoming blows fast enough or will he be chopped into pieces.

AND FOR FUCK SAKE. GO SEE THE MOVIES AGAIN.
Until then you can go fuck off to bed and wank about Vader. I hoped you didnt cry when Vader died in ROTJ.

[Rommie2006]

SO IN CONCLUSION (this thread has gone waaayy off topic from what I intended)

1)Vader was likely to be holding back in all his 3 duels in OT for whatever reasons. This I agree. BUT it does not tell us of his "upper limit" powers. Perhaps he can fight faster, but toned down to play with ObiWan and Luke. If this is the case, then my case is closed.
OR Perhaps he cant fight faster, because of his armor/injury/cybernetics. Then as before in my very first post I ask WHY. Since from clone wars we know that SW robotics/cybernetics tech can come close to match a jedi reflexes.

Yes.

At least that's settled.

2)Flashy moves in term of excessive blade spiraling and twirling is generally NOT good. This I agree. That is why we have only seen such flashy moves in young padawan obiwan and sith apprentice maul. My point is that we've never see real Jedi masters do excessive twirling. HOWEVER, when Jedi do jump around and do flips, it is PART of the Form 4 saber technique that explicitly relies on such acrobatics to win a duel. I admit after some consideration, Form 4 may not be a very good style unless you are a Yoda, so I concede this point. However, i must still insist that NOT ALL PT Jedi are Form 4 trained, so do not make baseless generalisations. And for those of you who insist that anything but OT-style slow-paced contemporary saber fights constitute flashy, then it seems that we have a clash of definitions.

I for one think Dooku was pretty cool, his technique. Specially when he duels with Grevious in the Clone Wars cartoons. God, I love it.

And weren't those Form 4 flashy techniques optimized for blaster deflecting? If so, then that'd be logical, seeing as how Jedi rarely duel since the Sith were supposedly extinct, also, when a Jedi fights, it's almost always against dudes with blasters.

No form 3 is the defensive anti-blasters style. And I think Dooku is cool too.

3)I still think PT jedi are much faster/agile than OT jedi, which is my main assertion of why OT jedi suck. There are those ultrafast Form 4 PT jedi like young obiwan and maul, whose style MAY leave them vulnerable and open to attacks. However, the typical PT jedi trained in other forms are still significant faster than any OT jedi. If you cant agree with this point then I cant help you there.

Well, fine. But personally, this is because OT Jedi prefer slower paced, more "realistic" stuff, more on the calculation, chess and Force duel of the Wills thing.[/quote]

I see. Well I prefer more "unrealistic" Jedi stuff. But I'll drop it from here.