Jane Fonda's/Hanoi Jane New Book and Apology

[The Yosemite Bear]

Mind you Bobby Fisher lost his US citizenship for traveling to Bulgaria for a chess match.

[Tsyroc]

It pisses me off that Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam and did what she did and it didn't even appear to adversly effect her career or anything (maybe it did?). While I do think it was technically treason I also think it was a stupid move on her part and a lot of young people did stupid things for supposed political reasons at that time and at least she didn't kill anyone like some of those idiots who were bombing buildings they thought were involved in helping the war. I also doubt she was getting good advice from the people she associated with at the time.


Oh yeah, Damn was she hot during her "Sex Kitten" phase. It's hard to believe that the person who made Barbarella was later married to Ted Turner.

[Darth Wong]

If the Jane Fonda haters want to say that Jane Fonda is a stupid fucking bitch, I would agree completely. However, I still don't see how the charge of treason can fly. The phrase "aid and comfort to the enemy" is being overinterpreted, methinks. I always thought it meant material aid and comfort, not moral support. The way the Fonda Treason crowd interprets it, you can commit treason by writing an editorial with the wrong viewpoint, for fuck's sake.

[Tsyroc]

I think if they would have tried to charge her with treason back then it would have caused more of a shitstorm and provided much more progaganda for the enemy than Fonda going to NV did. What she did was stupid and I find it insulting to our servicemen but not worth attempting to charge or prosecute her for anything.

I think some of the basis for people seeing treason in what she did is that "Tokyo Rose" was convicted of treason for the propaganda reports from Japan during WWII. I also think that same case may be part of the reason why the government didn't try to do anything to Fonda because it certainly got embarassing IMO and there's no doubt a Fonda trial would have been even worse, and a bigger waste of time an money.
Tokyo Rose.

[The Yosemite Bear]

but two of the axis sally's weren't

[Spacebeard]

Yeah, the distinction between Jane Fonda and Tokyo Rose is that Jane Fonda WILLINGLY worked with the North Vietnamese government to produce propaganda films, while Japanese-Americans who had the misfortune to be in Japan when war broke out were forcibly conscripted, against their will, into the Japanese war effort.

[Coyote]

To be fair, Jane Fonda probably went there on a lark and thought she was being "cool leftist peace chick" in doing so. I don't believe she was really all that aware of the actual ideological issues at work under it all-- it was a social movement in teh US she was more concerned with wooing.

Others, Axis Sally or Lord Haw-Haw, who went to work for the enemy because they showed a long-term belief and adherence to the ideology and crimes of their chosen governments, are more in line with the conditions needed to be labeled 'traitors'.

But for example, I think that while what social icons such as Charles Lindbergh expressed admiration for the fascist governments in Europe, I don't think he actually joined the Bund or worked against the US government. More shaky might be Ezra Pound's status, who showed a long-term committment to Italy's Fascist Party, and broadcast propaganda in their favor before the war began.

[Raptor 597]

Mind you Bobby Fisher lost his US citizenship for traveling to Bulgaria for a chess match.

No, he did not. It was Yugoslavia, under Milosloveic, and he renounced his US ciizenship, but the U.S. never condoned this. He was indicted under the U.N. articles prohibiting business transactions in or to Yugoslavia. Fischer kept his citizenship and passport until 2004 when he was arrested for an expired passport which had already been once renewed in 1997; the charge did make legal sense, but Bush II was likely out for revenge and wanted to extradite him to the from Japan for charges of tax evasion. Luckily, Iceland recently took him in as a citizen. The case aganist Fischer was stronger than Fonda; unless it could proven that she purchased something in North Vietnam at the time and there was a legal trade embargo in place.

[Sam Or I]

The way the Fonda Treason crowd interprets it, you can commit treason by writing an editorial with the wrong viewpoint, for fuck's sake.

I would consider an editoral treason if it was published by an enemies government. (Not nearly as bad as picking up arms) Imagine if, lets say, someone went to Iraq, and got his work (Anti-American) published by the Saddam Daily. To me it is very boarderline, leaning on the edge of treason. How far do you consider treason? To me she was working with the enemy during a time of war.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The way the Fonda Treason crowd interprets it, you can commit treason by writing an editorial with the wrong viewpoint, for fuck's sake.

I would consider an editoral treason if it was published by an enemies government. (Not nearly as bad as picking up arms) Imagine if, lets say, someone went to Iraq, and got his work (Anti-American) published by the Saddam Daily. To me it is very boarderline, leaning on the edge of treason. How far do you consider treason? To me she was working with the enemy during a time of war.

you are aware that the supreme court struck down the alien and sedition laws under the first amendment violations more then one century ago?

not that our present administration would be too happy with that ruling.

[Stormbringer]

The way the Fonda Treason crowd interprets it, you can commit treason by writing an editorial with the wrong viewpoint, for fuck's sake.

I would consider an editoral treason if it was published by an enemies government. (Not nearly as bad as picking up arms) Imagine if, lets say, someone went to Iraq, and got his work (Anti-American) published by the Saddam Daily. To me it is very boarderline, leaning on the edge of treason. How far do you consider treason? To me she was working with the enemy during a time of war.

you are aware that the supreme court struck down the alien and sedition laws under the first amendment violations more then one century ago?

not that our present administration would be too happy with that ruling.

Do you have any point to this blathering?

[Sam Or I]

you are aware that the supreme court struck down the alien and sedition laws under the first amendment violations more then one century ago?

not that our present administration would be too happy with that ruling.

Yes I am aware of that. I see a huge difference between, criticizing ones own government (hell, I do it all the time), and going over to the enemy and critizing it through an enemy governments propaganda machine. It is aiding the enemy. Once she started using the NV government owned equipment to propagate a war against the US, it is aiding the enemy. She read scripts prepared by the NV.

[Jalinth]

Yes I am aware of that. I see a huge difference between, criticizing ones own government (hell, I do it all the time), and going over to the enemy and critizing it through an enemy governments propaganda machine. It is aiding the enemy. Once she started using the NV government owned equipment to propagate a war against the US, it is aiding the enemy. She read scripts prepared by the NV.

At some point you stop being a protestor and join the "enemy". Sam's point is that someone who used the NV's equipment, toured NV sites, and read scripts prepared by NV propaganda ministry looks very much like an employee of the NV.

Was the Vietnam War stupid - yes. But her comments (especially on the treatment of POWs) were beyond the pale. I can't blame any Vietnam vets for wanting to spit on her grave.

[tharkûn]

you are aware that the supreme court struck down the alien and sedition laws under the first amendment violations more then one century ago?

Yes that would be because the sedition act was applied to publications in the US for as trivial of matters as critiquing the government.

I would remind you of the Espionage and Sedition Act of 1917 was passed WWI of which the Espionage portion has not been expunged from the books. Anyone who "shall willfully cause or attempt to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny or refusal of duty " can be legally " be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both". I'd have to do some more extensive research to see just how much those laws have been changed or if they have just been quietly nonenforced like the sailor mongering charges were up until Greenpeace needed a bitchslapping; all I recall is it being upheld in Shenck. If future laws merely ignored the above there would be extremely trivial grounds for prosecuting Fonda.

Wether or not she was truly providing "aid and comfort" ... well I'm unsure reading enemy propoganda speeches verbatum is at the line if it hasn't stepped over. The fact that she was a moronic, whiney bitch I have no question about. Until she bucks up and says a good portion of her positions about the grunts in the field were stupid, hateful, and vapid BS, I care not at all about her "apologies".

[The Yosemite Bear]

Mind you, I don't like Fonda either, ok I've seen her naked from back when, but that's anther story. My point also is that in this age of computers, and unprecidented acess, I could say write a massive bitchslap of an paper on various unethical/illegal activities performed by the present administration, someone from Al-Jezeria could pick that article and repulblish it. That would not be treason.

Also what about the folks like Caffee, or in the prison scandal in Iraq. Those sure as hell provided comfort and propaganda to the forces against us a lot more then some dumb celebraty.

[Spacebeard]

Mind you, I don't like Fonda either, ok I've seen her naked from back when, but that's anther story. My point also is that in this age of computers, and unprecidented acess, I could say write a massive bitchslap of an paper on various unethical/illegal activities performed by the present administration, someone from Al-Jezeria could pick that article and repulblish it. That would not be treason.

No, it wouldn't, because you wouldn't have worked hand in hand with an enemy government to produce it, while Jane Fonda did. This is a red herring.

Also what about the folks like Caffee, or in the prison scandal in Iraq. Those sure as hell provided comfort and propaganda to the forces against us a lot more then some dumb celebraty.

Another red herring. They didn't work with an enemy government, nor did they have the INTENT to aid their enemies. If that standard were actually applied, then the architects of the Holocaust would be considered traitors to Nazi Germany since their actions provided the Allies with propaganda.

The language used in the Constitution is "adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort". The first phrase I would think is rather more important than the second for these examples; for this condition of treason to be met, you must both adhere to enemies of the United States and give them aid and comfort. My ignorant layman's opinion is that this means you must actively ally yourself and work with an enemy government, and provide them with some aid either material or psychological.