Lensmen vs Green Lantern Corps

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ok so...Q gets bored and wants a gladiatorial match between superhumans.

So 1,500 high-powered Lensmen are transported into the arena, including Kim, Tregonse and Worsel and 1,500 Green Lanterns are transported into the arena, including Hal Jordan and Kyle.

Both have their powers, weapons, all that stuff in tact--meaning the Lanterns get their rings and all the power source they'll ever need so they dont ever have to recharge and no yellow weaknesses or whatever and the Lensmen get the lens and their sidearms and space armor.

All are fully trained, fully powered, and instructed by Q to beat the holly Hell out of each other. No holds barred, to the death, last man standing wins. It's a traditional gladiatorial arena, no cover.

So, which cadre of space cops wins? Place your bets.

(As a fan of both groups i honestly cant decide, but if i were to bet i'd tenatively put my money on the GLs...maybe...)

[Stravo]

I don't know a damned thing about Lensmen but isn't it a bit unfair to remove the only weakness the rings have (yellow) on the Lantern side? Part of what makes a GL good is working around such a simple weakness when it comes up.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I didnt think it was fair to create an outside limitation, it might swing the fight in one direction or another without just cause. The Lensmen have no such weakness, AFAIK.

I'm cursious what would happen, all things being equal, if they fought. No advantages or disadvantages besides what powers/weapons they have.

[mr friendly guy]

Aren't the current batch of Green Lanterns without this silly weakness to the colour yellow?

[General Zod]

if you're including hal jordan and kyle, then they seem pretty fucked. especially if there's no limit to their power (ie - no need to recharge) and no yellow weakness (which kyle's ring doesn't have). considering a GL's only real limit on what the ring can do is their willpower and imagination, i don't really see how the lensmen stand a chance. admittedly i'm not that familiar with them, but we've been shown some pretty uber upper limits for GLs.

[mr friendly guy]

Besides the old vulnerability to yellow objects, the other "traditional" way to deal with GL's is to disrupt their concentration so they can't imagine constructs for their rings to make.

This tends to involve psionic attacks or sonic ones. If the Lensmen can do that, they might stand a chance.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The Lens gives the wearer vast telepathic/telekinetic powers, the only limit being will power and focus, and psionic defenses. Lensmen wear space-armor, which is made of extremely strong material and shielded, like a GL's personal shield, and they carry blasters called DeLamenters which is very powerful.

Usually they throw mental bolts of energy at each other, and can stun you with the psionic radiance of the Lens, which has a telepathic effect as well and so they can subvert and paralyze you. Mental bolts can kill instantly, and the sheer 'leakage' of it can kill people near by. Thought screens, psionic defenses, can stand up to it, again bound by the limitation of will power and focus. Alien Lensmen, like Trengonse and Worsel, would have their natural tallents too; in this case Trig is vastlys tronger than a human and Worsel is a thirty foot dragon-like monster with numerous eyes and arms. Kim is the most powerful Lensmen, and can survive a mental bolt from Worsel, which would probably kill any normal human instantly, IIRC.

If i get anything wrong feel free to point it out, but i think thats about right. Sorry i shouldve posted some info eariler.

[mr friendly guy]

So which novels do the Lensmen come from. They sound interesting enough for me to want to at least have a look at?

AFAIK Green Lanterns shouldn't have any more resistance to telepathic attacks than the average strong willed superhero, so the Lensmen telepathic attack sounds strong enough to take them out. There is of course the matter of the range of said telepathic attack.

[Stravo]

GL's have shown some truly impressive feats such as shielding cities from atomic blasts, moving comets and massive asteroids out of the path of planets, flying at galactic traveling speeds - Jordan has been shown to fly from Earth to Oa - at the center of the universe - in a matter of hours. Their personal shields have withstood atomic blasts in the upper range of hundreds of megatons without stressing Jordan and that's not to mention the wide array of powers the rings grants the wearer absent the solid energy manipulation. For instance the ring has granted Jordan the abilties to: turn invisible, granted telepathy, magnetic powers, growth and shrinking.

GL's are truly cosmic beings and they're trained to work together when they need to, for instance linking their rings to perform even more impressive feats by pooling their willpower. A few GL's linked their rings and were able to move an asteroid more massive than what Superman could move in Action Comics. Jordan, Gardner and Stewart were able to link their rings and hold off the angry population of a planet at bay while Guardians fought Appa Ali Apsa in the early GL reboot.

Granted I know nothing about Lensmen but when I hear "They have spacesuits constructed out of quite strong material" and I counter with a GL has sustained hundreds of megatons of damage without ill effrect or stress on his willpower I think the GL's have this one on just quantifiable abilties alone.

[General Zod]

GL's have shown some truly impressive feats such as shielding cities from atomic blasts, moving comets and massive asteroids out of the path of planets, flying at galactic traveling speeds - Jordan has been shown to fly from Earth to Oa - at the center of the universe - in a matter of hours. Their personal shields have withstood atomic blasts in the upper range of hundreds of megatons without stressing Jordan and that's not to mention the wide array of powers the rings grants the wearer absent the solid energy manipulation. For instance the ring has granted Jordan the abilties to: turn invisible, granted telepathy, magnetic powers, growth and shrinking.

GL's are truly cosmic beings and they're trained to work together when they need to, for instance linking their rings to perform even more impressive feats by pooling their willpower. A few GL's linked their rings and were able to move an asteroid more massive than what Superman could move in Action Comics. Jordan, Gardner and Stewart were able to link their rings and hold off the angry population of a planet at bay while Guardians fought Appa Ali Apsa in the early GL reboot.

Granted I know nothing about Lensmen but when I hear "They have spacesuits constructed out of quite strong material" and I counter with a GL has sustained hundreds of megatons of damage without ill effrect or stress on his willpower I think the GL's have this one on just quantifiable abilties alone.

Kyle's also been shown to have the ability to tow a star before, iirc. though whether that was as Ion or regular Kyle w/ power ring i'm unsure.

[18-Till-I-Die]

So which novels do the Lensmen come from. They sound interesting enough for me to want to at least have a look at?

AFAIK Green Lanterns shouldn't have any more resistance to telepathic attacks than the average strong willed superhero, so the Lensmen telepathic attack sounds strong enough to take them out. There is of course the matter of the range of said telepathic attack.

The Lensmen come from the...Lensmen series!

Triplanetary, First Lensman, Galactic Patrol, Gray Lensman, Second-Stage Lensmen, Children of the Lens...in that order i think. But they're old books, you'd have to look around eBay i guess.

They have vast telepathic range. I think saying it's comperable to whatever range the GL rings have is about right, it's not a huge arena so it shouldnt be an issue.

Heres a quote, from the mental battle between Kim Kinnison and a Boskonian, named Prime Minister Fossten:

The mental blast came ahead of even the first word, but teh Gray Lensman, supremely raedy, was already in action. One quick thrust of his chin flicked off the thought-screen. The shielded cigarette case flew open and his more than half-alive Lens blazed again upon his massive wrist. His blaster lept from it's scabbard, flaming destruction as it came--a ravening tongue of incandescent fury which licked out of existance in the wtinkling of an eye the Bergenholms' control panels and the operators clustered before it.

An exhibit of telekinesis from Kim Kinnison, the main Lensman in the story. Also it mentioned:

These matters required only a fraction of a second. Well indeed it was that they did not take longer for the ever mounting fury of the Prime Minister's attack soon necessitated more--much more--than an automatic defense.

It goes on a bit more, describing in detail that Kim's mental bolts could 'slay a dozen men'.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Other psi-powers seen in the lensmen novels include mind control, empathic powers, prescience, and liek i said those mental bolts that can kill dozens or even hundreds at once just by being near by.

It depends all on how well GLs fair against psi powers. I dont recall weather or not their shileds can block psi attacks, but if not they could be mentally stunned by the telepathic qualities of the lens. It happens to others, from the decsription, manifesting as a blinding, bewildering brilliant light.

I'll gets some quotes, i just need to find the books for a sec.

[Andras]

At the end of the mental battle with Fossten, Kinnison was the only survivor on the entire battleship. The mental energies that both leaked out on 'side-bands' and from deflected mental bolts killed every normal member of the Boskonian ship.

GP armor contains it's own Bergenholm drives, and are capable of crossing interstellar distances. The Bergenholm's render the armor practically immune to physical attacks.

Lens- strong mental attacks, immune to physical attacks
GLCorps- limited to physical attacks, no mental defenses.

[Stravo]

Lens- strong mental attacks, immune to physical attacks
GLCorps- limited to physical attacks, no mental defenses.

Wow. Really? No mental defenses from the GL Corps huh? SO Hector Hammond a telepathic villain of GL's needs to use all his mental powers (strong enough to telekinetically alter the course of a comet out near Pluto while on Earth and telepathically assault Jordan at the same distance) to try to control Jordan's mind and fails?

A Guardian (Appa Ali Appa) uses all his mental powers (The Guadrians being the pinnacle of mental devlopment in the DC Verse) to try and probe Hal Jordan and fails. The best he can do is mind wipe him and even that doesn't work as Hal fools the Guardian into thinking he has forgotten what happened and uses his ring to contact Guy Gardner halfway across a galaxy?

John Stewart spends MONTHS under constant mental probing from Appa Ali Apsa and only begins to crack after all that time?

When does the fact that the Green Lantern Corps members are chosen from the members of their species with the greatest willpowers and spritual and mental fortitude escape you?

Try again.

[Styphon]

At the end of the mental battle with Fossten, Kinnison was the only survivor on the entire battleship. The mental energies that both leaked out on 'side-bands' and from deflected mental bolts killed every normal member of the Boskonian ship.

GP armor contains it's own Bergenholm drives, and are capable of crossing interstellar distances. The Bergenholm's render the armor practically immune to physical attacks.

Lens- strong mental attacks, immune to physical attacks
GLCorps- limited to physical attacks, no mental defenses.

rather than techno-babbling and summing up with no limits fallacies (and what seems to me like a strawman), how bout giving us something quantifiable on the Lensman armor?

[NecronLord]

GL's have shown some truly impressive feats <snip>

The wank. It burns.

Doesn't this thread belong in Fantasy?

[Stravo]

GL's have shown some truly impressive feats <snip>

The wank. It burns.

Doesn't this thread belong in Fantasy?

How is it wanky in terms of DC verse levels which we know are orders of magnitude above Marvel's? The GL Corps are the guardians of peace and order in the universe, not just the galaxy. They are designed to be able to defend and protect things on a planetary if not star system scale from most any threat. The Guardians created the most powerful weapon in the universe and gave it to their knights to go out and defend the realm. In a universe full of threats that can put Superman down for the count the Lanterns need to be that powerful.

Remember they're not supposed to call for help from the Guardians and rarely from each other, they exist autonomously from Oa.

Besides, these are comic books. And you wanna know wank? Ships that can slag the surface of a planet yet never ever display anything remotely like that ability on screen starts to smell like wank to me. Warrior monks with precognition, uber swords that can cut through anything, abilties that allow them to do just anything they can imagine is pretty wanky too.

[18-Till-I-Die]

A note on Bergenholms:

Without posting pages of quotes to get it all straight, the quick and dirty is a Berg is an inertialess propulsive unit that means any force or inertia applies is negated. On a ship, even a small one, something like a nova would just push the ship out of the way because the force applied is negated. Lensman space-armor has a small Berg, so interplanetary and IIRC interstellar maneuvering is indeed posisble. Plus personal shields of considerable strength, probably not on GL levels, but like most Lensverse shields mostly immune to EM weapons. Lensmenverse weapons usually employ FTL beams of a sort, i dont recall if it's explained how but they do have Ultrawaves which are a type of tachyonic energy so it appears thats what they use, and sub-etheric (read: subspace) vibrations which can effect real world stuff.

I dont think GL rings are EM though, i'll leave that to those who know more about the subject.

[18-Till-I-Die]

How is it wanky in terms of DC verse levels which we know are orders of magnitude above Marvel's? The GL Corps are the guardians of peace and order in the universe, not just the galaxy. They are designed to be able to defend and protect things on a planetary if not star system scale from most any threat. The Guardians created the most powerful weapon in the universe and gave it to their knights to go out and defend the realm. In a universe full of threats that can put Superman down for the count the Lanterns need to be that powerful.

Remember they're not supposed to call for help from the Guardians and rarely from each other, they exist autonomously from Oa.

Yeah thats like the Lensmen.

The Arisians saw these creatures from another universe called the Eddorians would conquer all that existed if they werent stopped. So they found teh absolute best, most fearless, most morally rpright folks on millions of planets and gave them Lenses that granted vast telepathic and telekinetic powers. Thus the Lensmen.

You know what...it was made in like 1930 so DC might have ripped Doc Smith off (no flames, i doubt it was a rip off, hell i love teh GL Corps, i jest i jest!)

[Grasscutter]

GL's have shown some truly impressive feats <snip>

The wank. It burns.

Doesn't this thread belong in Fantasy?

Oan Green Lantern's powers are entirely science based. Any mystical element was removed by the Guardians when they created the rings and the Central Power Battery. This mystic element became the Starheart, which eventually ended up on Earth where it was molded into a MYSTIC Power Ring and Lantern. Of course, I doubt this has any bearing on whether this belongs in the Fantasy forum or not since I notice any comic discussions tend to end up there =).


All of the examples listed of a Green Lantern's abilities come from actual in-continuity issues, so if there's any wanking going on it's on the part of the writers. If those weren't enough, while we've never seen him do it, Kyle has stated on several times as fact that he is able to split atoms and create nuclear explosions with his ring.

[Grasscutter]

GL's have shown some truly impressive feats <snip>

The wank. It burns.

Doesn't this thread belong in Fantasy?

How is it wanky in terms of DC verse levels which we know are orders of magnitude above Marvel's? The GL Corps are the guardians of peace and order in the universe, not just the galaxy. They are designed to be able to defend and protect things on a planetary if not star system scale from most any threat. The Guardians created the most powerful weapon in the universe and gave it to their knights to go out and defend the realm. In a universe full of threats that can put Superman down for the count the Lanterns need to be that powerful.

Remember they're not supposed to call for help from the Guardians and rarely from each other, they exist autonomously from Oa.

Besides, these are comic books. And you wanna know wank? Ships that can slag the surface of a planet yet never ever display anything remotely like that ability on screen starts to smell like wank to me. Warrior monks with precognition, uber swords that can cut through anything, abilties that allow them to do just anything they can imagine is pretty wanky too.

I have to agree about the Lanterns not being wanky. It's a question of scale, and these guys are supposed to protect huge regions of space, by themselves, from threats that are often of equal or superior power. What I do think is wanky is that Earth has 5 Green Lanterns all to itself, 6 if you count Jade =).

[NecronLord]

Besides, these are comic books. And you wanna know wank? Ships that can slag the surface of a planet yet never ever display anything remotely like that ability on screen starts to smell like wank to me. Warrior monks with precognition, uber swords that can cut through anything, abilties that allow them to do just anything they can imagine is pretty wanky too.

Ho ho ho. You think I don't consider SW firepower and technology blatantly wanked too?

What I find particularly wanky about this particular thing, is someone flying across the universe with a minimum of technological aid. It makes no comment on whether or not it fits in universe. I'm sure it does.

[Tasoth]

WEEE! Lensmen. *cracks his knuckles*

Space Armor- Two varieties here. The first is bog standard, metal and servo space armor. It's repeatedly stated in the books that the armor can turn away automatic rounds(can't remember if they're explosive or not) with ease and their shields can stop DeLameter's dead, which is why you need a space axe or a semiportable/LMG to really beat on them. The second type is Kinnision's custom suit of Oleum or some such, which is ultradense, got some mean ass servos to get it to move and is the only armor capable of working in a Hyperspacial Tube.

Mental Bolts- Kinnision and Fosston's fight was a tad more complicated. Yes, Kinnison had the Jets(as they call them) to initiate and go for a short period of time with the Eddorian, but he did not have what it took to hold out or kill it when it went full power, that's why mentor of arisia had to sneakily back his powers. The resulting mental battle slaughtered the entire crew of the Boskonian command ship. Additionally, the Palainian(forgot his name) 2nd stage Lensman was able to implant seeds of hate against each other in the boskonian higher ups after he cracked their shield. He was never found out.

Gestalt- This one depends on whether this match up takes place before or after Children of the Lens. If after, the Lensmen have the ability to mentally link themselves into one massive mind, no matter the distance. 1,500 minds working as one giant organism would be frightening.

Whatever the outcome, I'd pay to see this fight in the safety of my home. On a planet far, far away.

[Vendetta]

What I find particularly wanky about this particular thing, is someone flying across the universe with a minimum of technological aid. It makes no comment on whether or not it fits in universe. I'm sure it does.

Calling a Green Lantern ring 'a minimum of technological aid' is like calling the Tsar Bomba a 'firework'.

It's one of the most technologically advanced pieces of equipment in the DCU.

[Ghost Rider]

Y'know Necron...at some level anything beyond Earth Tech can be considered immensely wank.

SW, ST, B5, BSG, Farscape, Dr Who, 40K...etc.

Your point?

I mean for fuck's sake the Lensmen are outlandishly wank as compared to most, making Jedi's on some level look puny as children.

As for the contest...do the Lensmen have some way of truly planetary firepower, because the GL do and have the abiltiy to literally slice planets apart at the highest levels.

So I would like to hear something of the Lensmen combatting this given that literally the GL never has to see his opponent.