Warp 10 + Cardassian Dreadnaught Missile = Pwnage?

[Praxis]

the Cardassian warships in the TDIC fleet (Cardassian ships don't use cloaks for the most part) so it's not a leap in logic to use it on a Cardassian dreadnought.

OK, conceeded.

Why are you conceding this? Those Cardassian ships were under the command of a changeling Romulan general, and the ships were not part of the official cardassian military (rather, built by the Obsidian order), the Romulans would never let them use cloaks on SUPERWEAPONS.

[Jon]

Even if it wasn't, the warp scale may simply have been recalibrated again.

Its totally incompatible with Nemesis. Data dies in Nemesis yet he is alive and well many years afterwards in AGT.

Plenty of possibilities.

Knowing about the future as Picard did after being there could have changed events.
It could have been a possible future.
Or it could still happen- perhaps Data's memories resurface in B4 and replaces his own and he becomes Data, gets Data's name and rank and position, etc.

The Enterprise D not being around negates that future, I would have thought.

[Praxis]

P.S. I'm not a physics major, can someone tell me exactly how much firepower we'd be looking at if a scaled-up version of the Dreadnaught missile were to contain, say, 1 MT of matter and 1 MT of antimatter?

You realize that's the equivilant of nearly seven hundred thousand photon torpedoes, right?

CRAP, I made a HUGE mistake with calculations.
For some reason I went with 3 tons of material in a photon torp and 2 million tons for your ship.


It's 3 KILOGRAMS in a photon torp.
By Google Calculator, 1 ton = 907.18474 kilograms

...
y-i-k-e-s.

2000000 multiplied by 907.18474 divided by 3 equals...woah.


1 million tons of antimatter and one million tons of matter? You definitely made this number up, because it's just insane.

That's about equivilant to the firepower of 604,789,826 photon torpedoes.

NEARLY 605 MILLION PHOTON TORPEDOES.

Sheesh.

[Praxis]

Its totally incompatible with Nemesis. Data dies in Nemesis yet he is alive and well many years afterwards in AGT.

Plenty of possibilities.

Knowing about the future as Picard did after being there could have changed events.
It could have been a possible future.
Or it could still happen- perhaps Data's memories resurface in B4 and replaces his own and he becomes Data, gets Data's name and rank and position, etc.

The Enterprise D not being around negates that future, I would have thought.

I was under the impression that was a new Enterprise, not an upgraded D. The radical redesign kinda suggested that to me

But if it was an upgraded E-D, then you're right, the E-D being destroyed would have changed that future.

[Spacebeard]

the Cardassian warships in the TDIC fleet (Cardassian ships don't use cloaks for the most part) so it's not a leap in logic to use it on a Cardassian dreadnought.

OK, conceeded.

Why are you conceding this? Those Cardassian ships were under the command of a changeling Romulan general, and the ships were not part of the official cardassian military (rather, built by the Obsidian order), the Romulans would never let them use cloaks on SUPERWEAPONS.

I think he was conceding that it was technically possible, not politically possible.

Anyway, we know from several incidents that cloaks lose their effectiveness at high warp factors, and we were talking in the neighbourhood of warp 7, 8, and 9 there. Since the power required for each warp factor rises exponentionally (IIRC), a missile travelling just under warp 10 would be lit up like a Christmas tree, with or without a cloaking device.

[Jon]

This screencap of it carries the registry NCC-1701-D so I assumed it was the same ship heavily refitted .

[Praxis]

This screencap of it carries the registry NCC-1701-D so I assumed it was the same ship heavily refitted .

Okay then that explains it, the E-D being destroyed changed that future. Simple as that. It could have very well been real, but knowing about your future changes the way it goes.

[Nick Lancaster]

It's a MISSILE. When was the last time you saw someone steering a cruise missile?

If you are striking against an area, a ballistic (non-guided) missile will do nicely.

If you want precision application against a target, you need guidance, whether onboard or fly-by-wire.

Even in your example of a cruise missile, the missile has been equipped with a computer guidance package that allows it to follow the contours of the terrain.

They don't have humanoid crews, so no fear of weird anomalous mutations, and infinite speed vastly exceeds even the wankiest estimates of Imperial speed capabilities.

I don't remember too much about that episode, can't refute too many of your claims here. I'll have to do some rechecking and probably get the DVD Season 5 I think, but I'm pretty sure Warp 10 is infinite.

If you're going by the chart prepared by Michael Okuda, there is no such thing as Warp 10; it's an asymptotic curve, meaning the best you can achieve is 9.9999999 ... if you achieve Warp 10, you simultaneously occupy all points in the universe, i.e., disintegrate.

Additionally, Federation starships have limited duration at Warp 9+, so your super-missile wouldn't go very far.

Size matters if you want the thing's hull integrity to be strong, yeah. We're talking about a missile that's DESIGNED to blow up when it strikes an ISD, not a scaled-up warship.

So the first micrometorite that comes along drills right through the hull, and in short order, your super-mega-M/AM-device looks like swiss cheese, *poof* goes your containment protocol, and it goes boom ... possibly within range of the launch point.

The only thing we have to be concerned with is keeping the matter and antimatter separated until the missile strikes the ISD.

A containment field requires power. The size of the device you have proposed would need a significant containment field, thus, a dedicated power supply - more than the limited-duration/size of the units inside photon torpedos.

Consequently, to protect the power systems and the payload, you need hull integrity.

Then, to move the uber-mega-multi-wankaphasic missile, you require propulsion systems capable of 'Warp 10+' speeds and extended duration.

In short, you've demonstrated that you're just another Trektard who can't even get his fictional technology correct, let alone basic engineering concepts.

And this missile won't have to worry about gravity if it's made in space, unlike the 50 foot tall woman or the ant the size of a tank.

There's always gravity, champ, even in space.

Cloaking devices have gone onto loads of things that they're not designed for. The mines in DS9, the Enterprise wasn't made to accomodate a cloak but the Pegasus' cloak worked fine on it, the Cardassian warships in the TDIC fleet (Cardassian ships don't use cloaks for the most part) so it's not a leap in logic to use it on a Cardassian dreadnought.

The exception does not constitute the rule. I could weld a pair of wings to my car, but it would not make it capable of flight. I could weld a pair of wings to a skateboard, same thing.

You are assuming that, because it worked in a single instance, that it must work always. This is nothing more than one of the worst offenses Trek has made against science - ignoring the criteria of testable, repeatable results and turning it into plug-and-play.

Or, to put it more bluntly, a mine != Enterprise != Cardassian warship != multi-wankaphasic missile.

The Romulans don't want to live under Imperial fascism any more than the Federation. A state that signed away its cloaking technology won't mind letting the Tal Shiar command an Allied defense operation. And the Cardassians are in a poor position to resist after the curbstomping they got in WYLB. Their major contribution would be the Dreadnaught missile technology.

Your basis for this astounding conclusion about Romulan society? This is like saying Hitler couldn't have happened, because no one really wanted to live in a totalitarian state.

IMNERSHO, there's a difference between signing a treaty relinquishing cloaking technology and trusting the Tal Shiar with tactical information and fleet disposition.

As for the Cardassians being 'in a poor position to resist' - this is the Federation's answer? "Hey, you got pwned, you're our bitch!" Gee, you think the Cardassians might have an issue with that? I don't recall seeing the Federation bending over after getting repeatedly bitchslapped by the Founders.

Also, the missiles could be fired from almost anywhere, uninhabited planets, asteroid fields, cloaked defense stations

No, they can't. You didn't put engines in them, remember? Just a low-grade hull, no guidance package, and a containment field. Maybe if you got out and pushed? (Oh, wait, that requires gravity, and you also believe there's no gravity in space.)

On testing on an inhabited planet ...
More likely on some barren rock in the cosmic boondocks. Not even Klingons are that dismissive of human(oid) life.

"There has been an ... incident on Praxis. We do not require assistance."

No, I mentioned putting the missile bases off planet, in defense stations and asteroid fields, and uninhabited rocks as well as defended planets.

How big is this uber-wankaphasic missile again?

How is this uber-wankaphasic missile going to exit an asteroid field if it has no guidance package? While there might be a vector which would take it clear, it's unlikely the same vector will lead to your target.

If it's mounted on an uninhabited rock, who's going to fire it? Oh, right, the computer system it doesn't have, 'cause you don't have to steer it.

Shit. Didn't remember that. I do remember the Enterprise using a Borg transwarp conduit in Descent (TNG), perhaps a ship with a copy of Voyager's log could use existing conduit to get to a place near the planet with the special dilithium or, more efficiently(?), try to modify ordinary dilithium?

Typical Trektard logic. Hey, genius, it doesn't work. So instead of scrapping the plan, you're busy trying to find exceptions and tweaks to make it work?

Theoretically, couldn't they slow it down ever so slightly, to the point where it's faster than anything the Imperial forces can throw at them but not infinite so it can be targetted?

No. See the discussion about Warp 10, earlier in this post.

"We want it to go at infinite speeds, but not really that fast. Can you make it so it goes at only partly infinite speeds?"

Might still be dangerous for humanoid travel, but it can still be equipped with a warhead. Or slap a transwarp drive on it. (The Federation's transwarp drive is dangerous, ships with it don't last but a modified Dreadnaught would only have to last long enough to hit an ISD.

With the uber-wankaphasic missile having such a tremendous yield, you obviously aren't going to wait to shoot the ISD right in the lips, so you have to fire when it's at a significant distance. If a ship won't stand transwarp drive, your missile with the cheap-ass hull certainly won't.

Also, some can be left warp 10 and fired into the Imperial galaxy, where they can wreak havoc beyond a terrorist's wildest wet dreams.

Let's go over this again:

Warp 10 = instant disintegration.

No guidance = No means of targeting anything in a galaxy far, far away.

The Federation doesn't need one of those, they just need one big enough to take out an ISD. Of course, if it can render an Imperial planet uninhabitable that's nice too.

Wait, wouldn't that (the Federation using a Galaxy Gun-like device) involve gross disregard for humanoid life?

Pray, tell, is this hell you come from where they send stupid people?

[Praxis]

And this missile won't have to worry about gravity if it's made in space, unlike the 50 foot tall woman or the ant the size of a tank.

Also, the missiles could be fired from almost anywhere, uninhabited planets, asteroid fields, cloaked defense stations (if the Empire decides to fuck with the Klingons or Romulans) so even a massive BDZ'ing operation won't necessarily root out all the missiles.

It's one or the other buddy, either you build your heat-seeking starbase-sized mega-missles in space where everyone can see them, or underground where they'll probably collapse under their own weight. You're contradicting yourself.

[Praxis]

Cloaking devices have gone onto loads of things that they're not designed for. The mines in DS9, the Enterprise wasn't made to accomodate a cloak but the Pegasus' cloak worked fine on it, the Cardassian warships in the TDIC fleet (Cardassian ships don't use cloaks for the most part) so it's not a leap in logic to use it on a Cardassian dreadnought.

The mines in DS9 were built to use cloaks. The prototype cloak in Pegasus was designed specificly for Federation ships. The Cardassian warships in TDIC were build secretly JUST for the Tal'Shiar to use.


Wow, brilliant examples, got any more for me to rip apart?

[Rihannsu Science Officer]

I have about 20 posts to reply to here, so I'll try to knock out a few of the major points here.

1. Dilithium has the -ium suffix, which according to the Canon Database is generally reserved for elements. The only differences between two kinds of the same element are the electrical charge (modified by adding or subtracting electrons) and the isotope (modified by changing the number of neutrons.) Therefore, modifying ordinary dilithium by messing with the electrons or neutrons to get the kind required for Warp 10 isn't that difficult.

2. I merely threw the 1 MT M/AM warhead out as an example. According to DITL, the warhead was 2 tons. Scaling up to 5 or 6 tons is more reasonable than 1 MT, I'll grant that. But even a 5 ton M/AM warhead is e=mc^2 = 5,000 KG * 9E16 = 4.5E20 J. IIRC, a standard photon torpedo is about 60 MT, upper estimate generally accepted (using TNT as the base for yield) and 1 MT TNT = ~4.2E15 J, so 60 MT = 2.52E17 J. We're still talking about maybe 50 torp yields per missile.

3. Warp 10 probes, maybe with warheads, might be good for recon or random destruction. The intention here is to make life so miserable for the Empire that the Imperial people will decide it's not worth it and rise against the warmongering Empire. I never said with 100% certainty that it would work. Later on I did mention the possible use of transwarp on some missiles so navigation would be less of a hassle. While I wouldn't get on a Federation ship with transwarp at its state of development, I see no problem firing missiles with the technology.

4. About the Federation trusting its enemies, once their planets start getting reduced to molten slag and the Romulans keep maintaining their paranoia about the idea of Federation cloaks, even on missiles rather than ships, the Federation, being composed of being far more rational beings than Warsie religious fanatics, will do what needs to be done, even if that means allowing Romulan officers access to sensitive sites. They'll realize the Empire is a far greater threat than the Romulan Empire. If push came to shove, they might even send a Warp 10 missile into Borg space to be assimilated. The Borg are more interested in assimilation of technology than wholesale destruction, but they'll probably want the missile and anything in the Dreadnaught's computer core, perhaps including descriptions of Imperial tech for them to assimilate. They're lousy fighters, but they have the industrial capacity far superior to the Federation, perhaps they would trade huge stocks of antimatter for military support? I'll admit that it's generally against Borg nature to negotiate, but they did when their ass was on the line against Species 8472, IIRC.

5. Even at Warp 10, that shuttle survived a split second at least. A missile probably would too. Infinite speed > Imperial Hyperdrive Speed, so getting them into Imperial space under cloak will be much easier than Imperial ships getting into Federation space.

6. There are a lot of things that can be done with those missiles. I'll borrow from the "Chokepoint Defense" strategy suggested on Mike Wong's Tactics page. (A wormhole linking the two worlds would be almost required for any Empire - Federation war.) It says a large number of mine impacts would be required to seriously damage an ISD, but what if the "mines" were modified Dreadnaught missiles with cloaking devices and advanced sensors, maybe high - or trans- warp speeds? Several of them hitting a (relatively) weak spot on an ISD should do a LOT of damage. Even a SSD would likely have to put in for repairs.

[Junghalli]

Wait, wouldn't that (the Federation using a Galaxy Gun-like device) involve gross disregard for humanoid life?
Pray, tell, is this hell you come from where they send stupid people?

Why is that stupid? I know Rihannsu's concept has some serious issues, but I don't see how this is one of them. They're fighting a war against a massively superior enemy that's going to conquer them, and in war there usually are civilian casualties, under the circumstances I doubt they'd loose very much sleep over that. Or is this just more of teh Fedzors r such teh pu$$1es 1111shiftLOL!!!111?

[SirNitram]

Some of us prefer to actually debate the organizations that exist, not just wank over technology.

Of course, this goes a step further, as instead of even debating the technology observed, we're just going to say 'Screw what we saw Warp 10 do.. This is what I declare it does!'.

In the same spirit, I retaliate with:

Suncrusher with Aing-Tiig drive, with a World Devastator furnace piloted by Palpatine at his height.

[Batman]

I have about 20 posts to reply to here, so I'll try to knock out a few of the major points here.
1. Dilithium has the -ium suffix, which according to the Canon Database is generally reserved for elements. The only differences between two kinds of the same element are the electrical charge (modified by adding or subtracting electrons) and the isotope (modified by changing the number of neutrons.) Therefore, modifying ordinary dilithium by messing with the electrons or neutrons to get the kind required for Warp 10 isn't that difficult

Because Star Trek always follows real world physics and never assigns idiotic technobabble properties to its matrials. Oh wait they do.Contaminated AM waste, anyone?
Not that Dilithium isn't already suspect, what with it somwhow not reacting with antimatter...

2. I merely threw the 1 MT M/AM warhead out as an example. According to DITL, the warhead was 2 tons. Scaling up to 5 or 6 tons is more reasonable than 1 MT, I'll grant that. But even a 5 ton M/AM warhead is e=mc^2 = 5,000 KG * 9E16 = 4.5E20 J. IIRC, a standard photon torpedo is about 60 MT, upper estimate generally accepted (using TNT as the base for yield) and 1 MT TNT = ~4.2E15 J, so 60 MT = 2.52E17 J. We're still talking about maybe 50 torp yields per missile.

Except that 60MT is complete bogus, REAL Trek photorp yields are maybe .5 to 2 MT.
Not that that is relevant, a 5 ton M/AM warhead assuming a physically impossible 100% reaction efficiency would yield a whopping 107GT, of which a theoretical maximum of 53.5GT is applied to shields. As oopposed to 200GT per shot for a 20 year old Old Republic troop transport.
Whoopde-fucking-do.

3. Warp 10 probes, maybe with warheads, might be good for recon or random destruction.

Recon requires you to, you know, actually come out of Warp where you might find something interesting. As does random destruction (which isn't exactly going to amount to much with yields that pathetic), as blowing up lots of empty space isn't going to bother anybody all that much.

The intention here is to make life so miserable for the Empire that the Imperial people will decide it's not worth it and rise against the warmongering Empire.

Which this scheme is utterly incapable of achieving, as you have no way to target that missile.

I never said with 100% certainty that it would work. Later on I did mention the possible use of transwarp on some missiles so navigation would be less of a hassle.

And slow them down to the point where thery utterly fail to be a threat to all but stationary targets, which are equipped to deal with Wars threats.
I.E., PT level firepower.

While I wouldn't get on a Federation ship with transwarp at its state of development, I see no problem firing missiles with the technology.

You have, of course, evidence for that not being a problem. Any high speed warp travel physically strains the vessel's hull. There's no reason it will not do so for a missile. Chances are the missile will break apart halfway to the target.

4. About the Federation trusting its enemies, once their planets start getting reduced to molten slag and the Romulans keep maintaining their paranoia about the idea of Federation cloaks, even on missiles rather than ships, the Federation, being composed of being far more rational beings than Warsie religious fanatics, will do what needs to be done, even if that means allowing Romulan officers access to sensitive sites. They'll realize the Empire is a far greater threat than the Romulan Empire. If push came to shove, they might even send a Warp 10 missile into Borg space to be assimilated. The Borg are more interested in assimilation of technology than wholesale destruction, but they'll probably want the missile and anything in the Dreadnaught's computer core, perhaps including descriptions of Imperial tech for them to assimilate. They're lousy fighters, but they have the industrial capacity far superior to the Federation, perhaps they would trade huge stocks of antimatter for military support? I'll admit that it's generally against Borg nature to negotiate, but they did when their ass was on the line against Species 8472, IIRC.

This whole paragraph quite simply defies comprehension.

5. Even at Warp 10, that shuttle survived a split second at least. A missile probably would too. Infinite speed > Imperial Hyperdrive Speed, so getting them into Imperial space under cloak will be much easier than Imperial ships getting into Federation space.

Which is completely useless as you can't control where you end up. And that includes way outside imperial space. Assuming the Feds find a source for that weird Dilithium in the first place, which is one hell of a stretch.
Whereas the Imps can enter Fed space wherever they want at their leasure.

6. There are a lot of things that can be done with those missiles. I'll borrow from the "Chokepoint Defense" strategy suggested on Mike Wong's Tactics page. (A wormhole linking the two worlds would be almost required for any Empire - Federation war.) It says a large number of mine impacts would be required to seriously damage an ISD, but what if the "mines" were modified Dreadnaught missiles with cloaking devices and advanced sensors, maybe high - or trans- warp speeds?

They'd go SPLAT agains the Imperial's shields if they ever manage to hit in the first place. Assuming such a thing can be built in the first place, assuming Trek cloaks work against Wars sensors in the first pace, despite canon evidence of high Warp messing with cloaks, despite of NO evidence of Cloaks working with Transwarp...

Several of them hitting a (relatively) weak spot on an ISD should do a LOT of damage.

Several dozen of them wouldn't do diddly squat as your 5 ton missile has 1/4th the firepower of a 20 year old troop transport MTL bolt.
Evidence for the weak spot, please?

Even a SSD would likely have to put in for repairs.

If you manage to hit it with about a million of them, maybe.

[Spacebeard]

While I wouldn't get on a Federation ship with transwarp at its state of development, I see no problem firing missiles with the technology.

Wrong. We know for a fact that Starfleet has tried building small unmanned craft with transwarp drives before, and failed miserably. Remember "Pathfinder" (VOY), in which Barclay was mocked by his boss for his "transwarp probe" idea?

And besides, transwarp is NOT warp 10. Transwarp drives have a finite speed which is still far slower than Star Wars hyperdrive, so bringing up transwarp is a red herring.

[Darth Servo]

Or it could still happen- perhaps Data's memories resurface in B4 and replaces his own and he becomes Data, gets Data's name and rank and position, etc.

Totally incompatible with Trek precedent. The duplicate Riker didn't get Will's promotion even though he had done all the same things, had all his memories, etc up to that point.

[Darth Servo]

I was under the impression that was a new Enterprise, not an upgraded D. The radical redesign kinda suggested that to me

It was hardly radical. They slapped a third nacell on top of engineering and added a big-ass cannon under the saucer. Nothing more.

[Praxis]

4. About the Federation trusting its enemies, once their planets start getting reduced to molten slag and the Romulans keep maintaining their paranoia about the idea of Federation cloaks, even on missiles rather than ships, the Federation, being composed of being far more rational beings than Warsie religious fanatics, will do what needs to be done, even if that means allowing Romulan officers access to sensitive sites. They'll realize the Empire is a far greater threat than the Romulan Empire. If push came to shove, they might even send a Warp 10 missile into Borg space to be assimilated. The Borg are more interested in assimilation of technology than wholesale destruction, but they'll probably want the missile and anything in the Dreadnaught's computer core, perhaps including descriptions of Imperial tech for them to assimilate. They're lousy fighters, but they have the industrial capacity far superior to the Federation, perhaps they would trade huge stocks of antimatter for military support? I'll admit that it's generally against Borg nature to negotiate, but they did when their ass was on the line against Species 8472, IIRC.

Ah, so they'll band together AFTER the Empire has ALREADY slagged all their resources. So where are they gonna build these missles again?

[Nick Lancaster]

1. Dilithium has the -ium suffix, which according to the Canon Database is generally reserved for elements. The only differences between two kinds of the same element are the electrical charge (modified by adding or subtracting electrons) and the isotope (modified by changing the number of neutrons.) Therefore, modifying ordinary dilithium by messing with the electrons or neutrons to get the kind required for Warp 10 isn't that difficult.

Could it also be that dilithium (which might already be an isotope of Lithium) is resistant to change when exposed to the high energy of a M/AM plasma stream, and therefore 'messing with its electrons or neutrons' is, in fact, extremely difficult?

You are positing that, since Barry Bonds can hit a record-breaking number of home runs, we all can.

2. I merely threw the 1 MT M/AM warhead out as an example. According to DITL, the warhead was 2 tons. Scaling up to 5 or 6 tons is more reasonable than 1 MT, I'll grant that. But even a 5 ton M/AM warhead is e=mc^2 = 5,000 KG * 9E16 = 4.5E20 J. IIRC, a standard photon torpedo is about 60 MT, upper estimate generally accepted (using TNT as the base for yield) and 1 MT TNT = ~4.2E15 J, so 60 MT = 2.52E17 J. We're still talking about maybe 50 torp yields per missile.

Yield calculation is meaningless, as you have a non-functional design to begin with. (Insufficient hull, no guidance systems, no propulsion systems, no power.)

3. Warp 10 probes, maybe with warheads, might be good for recon or random destruction.

WARP 10 = Disintegration.

Go to the library, check out a copy of Okuda's TNG Technical Manual, and read it. Pay attention to the chart showing travel times at various warp speeds, how long a ship can travel at such speeds (given a starship-sized engine), and also the ranges on various probe classes.

The intention here is to make life so miserable for the Empire that the Imperial people will decide it's not worth it and rise against the warmongering Empire.

Assuming your magic-wankophasic missile works, and you destroy numerous Imperial worlds, the populace will rise up against the invading Federation.

I never said with 100% certainty that it would work. Later on I did mention the possible use of transwarp on some missiles so navigation would be less of a hassle. While I wouldn't get on a Federation ship with transwarp at its state of development, I see no problem firing missiles with the technology.

No, but instead of conceding that your brilliant strategy is just like all the other technowankery that comes from the Trek direction on a regular basis, you stay the course and insist on exceptions to the rules of the Trek universe.

Navigation? What navigation? You originally posited a missile that does not need to steer, i.e. it has no navigational systems.

You have also proposed a weapon with a yield so great that you wouldn't want to be in the area when it detonates, but insist that the very technology that doesn't work on a starship ... will work just fine on a missile. If anything, the payload on your missile is far more fragile and important.

Transwarp-equipped wankophasic missiles will either:

- Explode in mid-transit. Effect of detonation on subspace is unknown.
- Drop out of warp prematurely and detonate.

4. About the Federation trusting its enemies, once their planets start getting reduced to molten slag and the Romulans keep maintaining their paranoia about the idea of Federation cloaks, even on missiles rather than ships, the Federation, being composed of being far more rational beings than Warsie religious fanatics, will do what needs to be done, even if that means allowing Romulan officers access to sensitive sites.

"So, how do we get this piece of shit to work?"
"Let's slap a cloak on it!"
*applause*
*wankophasic missile vanishes from orbit*
"Does it work now?"
"No, but at least we don't have to look at it anymore."


What do Warsie (someone who likes Star Wars, as opposed to a denizen of the Star Wars universe) religious fanatics (perhaps you are referring to the Jedi, or perhaps you're trying to make a play off the teaser line, 'Do not hesitate! Do what must be done!') have to do with this?

When has anyone in the Trek universe shown they have the stone or sand to do 'what needs to be done'? More often than not, they're finding excuses and exceptions (just like they do with technology) to NOT do what needs to be done.

They'll realize the Empire is a far greater threat than the Romulan Empire.

Go look at the DS9 episode where they introduce the Defiant. Note how people express their doubts about having a Romulan officer onboard?

You are positing a change of consciousness that is about as likely as George W. Bush converting to the Wahabi Sect of Islam.

If push came to shove, they might even send a Warp 10 missile into Borg space to be assimilated.

There is no Warp 10. You're not sending anything anywhere.

The Borg are more interested in assimilation of technology than wholesale destruction, but they'll probably want the missile and anything in the Dreadnaught's computer core, perhaps including descriptions of Imperial tech for them to assimilate.

First, where did you get these descriptions of Imperial tech?

Second, why would they waste time with your wankophasic jerkoff toy? If they were interested, they'd assimilate the source. (And then you'd have Borgs with Imperial technology chasing your sorry ass.)

They're lousy fighters, but they have the industrial capacity far superior to the Federation, perhaps they would trade huge stocks of antimatter for military support?

Production of slush deuterium is not so rare that you have to trade for it.

And what military support could we offer them, precisely? A bunch of ships that a single Borg cube can mow through before lunch?

I'll admit that it's generally against Borg nature to negotiate, but they did when their ass was on the line against Species 8472, IIRC.

They did what President Bush did when he wanted to fight a war. Send someone else's kids.

5. Even at Warp 10, that shuttle survived a split second at least. A missile probably would too.

Damn it, "Warp 10" is a theoretical construct. When they revised warp speeds for TNG, they determined that you cannot, ever, reach Warp 10 - that doing so would mean you occupy every point in the universe simultaneously (translated: component atoms dispersed with no hope of reconstituting).

That is NOT the same thing as 'infinite speed,' which is a meaningless concept - an object moving at infinite speed has no upper limit, but observation has shown us that there are limits. Even the vaunted warp factor expresses speeds in multiples of light speed, and it faces the same asymptotic curve that the 'lightspeed barrier' posed.

A 'split second' is literally less than a second. Your wankophasic jerkoff toy isn't going anywhere.

Infinite speed > Imperial Hyperdrive Speed, so getting them into Imperial space under cloak will be much easier than Imperial ships getting into Federation space.

What does the relative travel time have to do with the difficulty of getting ships anywhere?

Example:

The Empire and the Federation launch strikes that are capable of MAD.

The Federation's wankophasic jerkoff toys arrive first, and *oooooh* they're cloaked. Cross off a hundred worlds from a galaxy of thousands or more.

The Empire's ships are already in hyperspace when the Federation first-strike arrives. They come out of hyperspace at their target destinations, and learn that over a hundred Imperial worlds are smoking pits - perhaps even Coruscant and the Kuat Shipyards. However, everything they have right there, right now, works just fine. They proceed to BDZ their targets, jump into hyperspace and proceed to their secondary, then tertiary targets.

The Federation? They're out of wankophasic jerkoff toys. Ooops.

6. There are a lot of things that can be done with those missiles. I'll borrow from the "Chokepoint Defense" strategy suggested on Mike Wong's Tactics page. (A wormhole linking the two worlds would be almost required for any Empire - Federation war.) It says a large number of mine impacts would be required to seriously damage an ISD, but what if the "mines" were modified Dreadnaught missiles with cloaking devices and advanced sensors, maybe high - or trans- warp speeds?

Mines don't move. There is no need for mines to be equipped with sensors, which generally constitute an active source that can be located.

There is NOTHING that can be done with your missiles, because THEY DON'T WORK.

Several of them hitting a (relatively) weak spot on an ISD should do a LOT of damage. Even a SSD would likely have to put in for repairs.

Typical Trek technowankery, again. Several non-functional devices will do a LOT OF NOTHING.

"But, what if we chained several dead horses together for increased speed?"
*applause*
"Why isn't the device moving?"
"I guess the dead horses aren't providing suitable motive force."
"Activate the cloaking device. That way --"
"... we don't have to look at it. I know."

[Nick Lancaster]

Wait, wouldn't that (the Federation using a Galaxy Gun-like device) involve gross disregard for humanoid life?
Pray, tell, is this hell you come from where they send stupid people?

Why is that stupid? I know Rihannsu's concept has some serious issues, but I don't see how this is one of them. They're fighting a war against a massively superior enemy that's going to conquer them, and in war there usually are civilian casualties, under the circumstances I doubt they'd loose very much sleep over that. Or is this just more of teh Fedzors r such teh pu$$1es 1111shiftLOL!!!111?

Because Rihannsu established the terms by noting even the Klingons didn't have that level of callous disregard for humanoid life, and also specified that his location is 'hell'.

Stack that on top of his incredible invention, his simplification of interstellar politics ("Can't we all just get along?") ... and my question about 'hell being where they send stupid people' is more than justified.

Furthermore, I have addressed his points relying on canon Star Trek sources. How does that make me guilty of "F3d $uxxors"?

[Darth Servo]

1. Dilithium has the -ium suffix, which according to the Canon Database is generally reserved for elements.

Thats what it means in real life. The Trek writers have shown repeatedly that they ignore that practice and slap "-ium" on everything funky substance they dream up, even when they label it a compound. In "Hollow Pursuits" they list of four different substances with the -ium suffix and they were definately molecular structures on the screen.

The only differences between two kinds of the same element are the electrical charge (modified by adding or subtracting electrons) and the isotope (modified by changing the number of neutrons.) Therefore, modifying ordinary dilithium by messing with the electrons or neutrons to get the kind required for Warp 10 isn't that difficult.

The theory in the database is that dilithium is an ISOTOPE of lithium. Do you know what an Isotope is?

2. I merely threw the 1 MT M/AM warhead out as an example. According to DITL, the warhead was 2 tons. Scaling up to 5 or 6 tons is more reasonable than 1 MT, I'll grant that. But even a 5 ton M/AM warhead is e=mc^2 = 5,000 KG * 9E16 = 4.5E20 J. IIRC, a standard photon torpedo is about 60 MT, upper estimate generally accepted (using TNT as the base for yield) and 1 MT TNT = ~4.2E15 J, so 60 MT = 2.52E17 J. We're still talking about maybe 50 torp yields per missile.

Which won't do jack to an ISD which is designed to withstand gigaton blasts.

3. Warp 10 probes, maybe with warheads, might be good for recon or random destruction.

Probes are about the size of a standard torpedo. IOW, the payload can't be increased that much.

The intention here is to make life so miserable for the Empire that the Imperial people will decide it's not worth it and rise against the warmongering Empire.

I'm really sure the fireworks display from these weapons detonating on the planetary shield will really get Imperial citizens riled up. </sarcasm>

I never said with 100% certainty that it would work.

You said there was no technical reason why it wouldn't.

Later on I did mention the possible use of transwarp on some missiles so navigation would be less of a hassle.

Using transwarp conduits that haven't been built yet?

While I wouldn't get on a Federation ship with transwarp at its state of development, I see no problem firing missiles with the technology.

what a shame the Federation doesn't HAVE that technology. YOu going to add the borg to your galactic alliance now?

4. About the Federation trusting its enemies, once their planets start getting reduced to molten slag and the Romulans keep maintaining their paranoia about the idea of Federation cloaks, even on missiles rather than ships, the Federation, being composed of being far more rational beings than Warsie religious fanatics, will do what needs to be done, even if that means allowing Romulan officers access to sensitive sites.

You really think thats a superior alternative to surrendering to another human power? All your actions would do is result in the complete destruction of Earth as retaliation from the Empire.

They'll realize the Empire is a far greater threat than the Romulan Empire.

Which will give the the incentive to surrender.

If push came to shove, they might even send a Warp 10 missile into Borg space to be assimilated.

Which the borg will quickly use against everyone else in the galaxy, including the Federation. Yep. Great idea.

The Borg are more interested in assimilation of technology than wholesale destruction, but they'll probably want the missile and anything in the Dreadnaught's computer core, perhaps including descriptions of Imperial tech for them to assimilate.

I can describe what an F-117 looks like and even some of its specs. That doesn't mean I can build one.

They're lousy fighters, but they have the industrial capacity far superior to the Federation, perhaps they would trade huge stocks of antimatter for military support?

Trade...is irrelevant.

I'll admit that it's generally against Borg nature to negotiate, but they did when their ass was on the line against Species 8472, IIRC.

Who said the Empire was declaring war on the borg at the same time it declares war on the Federation. Once again, the Trekkie just ASSUMEN the Empire will attack everyone simultaneously without ANY ustification for WHY they would delibrately spread their resources around when the don't NEED to.

5. Even at Warp 10, that shuttle survived a split second at least.

It didn't hit any micrometeors in that short time either, did it.

A missile probably would too. Infinite speed > Imperial Hyperdrive Speed, so getting them into Imperial space under cloak will be much easier than Imperial ships getting into Federation space.

You've blatently ignored EVERY SINGLE rebuttal regarting what "infinite speed" really entails in the Trek universe.

6. There are a lot of things that can be done with those missiles. I'll borrow from the "Chokepoint Defense" strategy suggested on Mike Wong's Tactics page. (A wormhole linking the two worlds would be almost required for any Empire - Federation war.) It says a large number of mine impacts would be required to seriously damage an ISD, but what if the "mines" were modified Dreadnaught missiles with cloaking devices and advanced sensors, maybe high - or trans- warp speeds? Several of them hitting a (relatively) weak spot on an ISD should do a LOT of damage. Even a SSD would likely have to put in for repairs.

1) You're still ignoring the problem of where the Feds are supposed to GET these things, especially all the antimatter. And 100 photon torps wouldn't SCRATCH the shields of an ISD.

2) You're ignoring the dillema of where to build these things w/o the Empire finding out.

[Praxis]

The intention here is to make life so miserable for the Empire that the Imperial people will decide it's not worth it and rise against the warmongering Empire.

You know, this bit is really giving me a laugh.


The Empire invades and conquers half the Federation

The Federation responds with a missle attack that wipes out billions of Imperial civilians

Imperial civilians: Look at all these casualties! These murders must be avenged!

The Empire sends everything in, five ISD's to each Fed world and an SSD to Earth, BDZ's every planet in the Alpha Quadrant within two days, and goes back home.

[Praxis]

Gah, I want an edit button!

Infinite speed > Imperial Hyperdrive Speed, so getting them into Imperial space under cloak will be much easier than Imperial ships getting into Federation space.

This is also funny. Okay, so your ship has magic infinite speed!

So you press the warp button and warp for 1 billionth of a second.

You've just moved an infinite distance, and now your ship has overshot where it intended to go...by infinity. Ship instantly explodes from having outrun the universe.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Gah, I want an edit button!

Infinite speed > Imperial Hyperdrive Speed, so getting them into Imperial space under cloak will be much easier than Imperial ships getting into Federation space.

This is also funny. Okay, so your ship has magic infinite speed!

So you press the warp button and warp for 1 billionth of a second.

You've just moved an infinite distance, and now your ship has overshot where it intended to go...by infinity. Ship instantly explodes from having outrun the universe.

Heh...dont put it past the Feds

No but i THINK he's trying to describe an instant-anywhere drive, like a space-fold, when he says 'infinite'.

[Praxis]

Which the borg will quickly use against everyone else in the galaxy, including the Federation. Yep. Great idea.

Of course not, even the Borg are smarter than that, they'll take one look at the starbase-sized heat-seeking scaled-up missle that can barely move under its own power and reject the design

Heh...dont put it past the Feds Laughing

No but i THINK he's trying to describe an instant-anywhere drive, like a space-fold, when he says 'infinite'.

Yeah, but if warp 10 = infinite speed, and warp 10 is not variable, you cannot go at any speed you want, you're either going at a finite speed (up to warp 9.999something) or you're going infinitely fast, meaning you've overshot your target already.

You can't tweak infinity, otherwise that shuttle in Voyager would have been home.

So if Warp 10 = infinite speed, it means you have no control over where you end up and will probably end up dead (disintegrated as was put over).

Otherwise, Warp 10 is not infinite.