KOTOR 2 Restoration project *spoilers*

[White Haven]

And when did the true, PC release come out? That's right, 3-4 months later. LucasAss strikes again.

As for Sion...sure, nice and menacing, la de dah. Same brainbug as most undead-auto-resurrection crap you see in fantasy, though: You have a weapon that can sever bits. Chop Sion into about nineteen pieces while he's recovering, then carry the bits off-world and scatter them all over. Problem solved.

[Petrosjko]

And when did the true, PC release come out? That's right, 3-4 months later. LucasAss strikes again.

It would've been nice for the PC players, but there's no way in hell they'd go that route, because then they'd be facing even more outrage from the X-Box fans. Not to mention the fact that Microsoft might not appreciate their platform getting screwed over thusly.

As for Sion...sure, nice and menacing, la de dah. Same brainbug as most undead-auto-resurrection crap you see in fantasy, though: You have a weapon that can sever bits. Chop Sion into about nineteen pieces while he's recovering, then carry the bits off-world and scatter them all over. Problem solved.

Well, let's be honest... lightsaber fights in general are ridiculous in both games. No human survives multiple lightsaber strokes. But that's another artifact of the ridiculously antiquated D&D method of doling out combat damage.

The point of Sion is that you have to actually be a big enough badass to beat him, then do the slice and dice and mail every one of your relatives a piece for posterity. I still prefer him over Malak. Malak's best moment was giving orders while getting his face worked on.

(As an aside, the scene where pre-Sith Malak makes his recruiting pitch kicked almighty amounts of ass.)

[Stofsk]

And when did the true, PC release come out? That's right, 3-4 months later. LucasAss strikes again.

It would've been nice for the PC players, but there's no way in hell they'd go that route, because then they'd be facing even more outrage from the X-Box fans. Not to mention the fact that Microsoft might not appreciate their platform getting screwed over thusly.

Microsoft can go to hell.

Seriously, PC got Yavin for KOTOR, Xbox had to wait for Live! content. Xbox fans know they don't have the best avenue for patches, but what makes up for that is a relative lack of bugs in comparison to the PC. So it evens out. PC gets more content, less stable interface; xbox gets less content, more stable interface.

I don't see any reason to acquiesce to the Xbox. I paid hundreds of dollars getting my computer up to spec enough to play the games on the PC, so frankly I'm entitled to get more than Joe-Xbox.

Well, let's be honest... lightsaber fights in general are ridiculous in both games. No human survives multiple lightsaber strokes. But that's another artifact of the ridiculously antiquated D&D method of doling out combat damage.

Vitality is different than D&D hitpoints. You're not really striking them - or 'connecting' to them with your lightsaber. What happens is the more devastating the attack (IE the attack succeeds) the more vitality it takes to avoid being sliced in half. Battles are a question of stamina. That's why you can take stamina packs to increase your vitality, and medpacs which are really just 'herbs and spices' to give you a jumpstart - like sticking an ungoldly mixture of caffeine and stimulants directly into your blood.

To give you some perspective, imagine if your vitality were reduced to 0. but you're still standing. After this point, any damage you receive goes against your Constitution. Since most people wouldn't have a Con over 20, and since by the end your lightsaber damage is something ridiculous, basically you're cut in half.

That last paragraph is how it works in the P&P version of the game, but I use it here as a kind of analogy.

Malak's best moment was giving orders while getting his face worked on.

That... was... AWESOME. I don't think that's in the xbox version, because when I did the PC ending i nearly jumped out of my chair in surprise.

(As an aside, the scene where pre-Sith Malak makes his recruiting pitch kicked almighty amounts of ass.)

That entire sequence was the best part of the game IMO. It makes visiting Korriban a treat. The call to arms by Malak... glimpsing Bastila as tip of the hat to what happens to her in KOTOR 1, the charge over the minefield... "apathy is death"... and the confrontation with Revan (in the Starforge robes!). It was all very nice.

Of course, I'm wondering how Revan kinda missed it the last time he was in that neck of the woods. "Hmm.. Ulic Qel Droma's robes, kickass... oh what's this, an entrance to a secret tomb! Should I check it out? Well, Bastila is kind of getting tortured by Malak right now, so I guess I don't really have time..."

[Petrosjko]

Microsoft can go to hell.

Seriously, PC got Yavin for KOTOR, Xbox had to wait for Live! content. Xbox fans know they don't have the best avenue for patches, but what makes up for that is a relative lack of bugs in comparison to the PC. So it evens out. PC gets more content, less stable interface; xbox gets less content, more stable interface.

I don't see any reason to acquiesce to the Xbox. I paid hundreds of dollars getting my computer up to spec enough to play the games on the PC, so frankly I'm entitled to get more than Joe-Xbox.

Saying 'Microsoft can go to hell' as Joe Consumer is different than saying it in the business sense.

I'm not justifying their release of a shitty product. I'm just pointing out why that wasn't considered an option, especially if the game wasn't encoded so the X-Box version could be updated.

Vitality is different than D&D hitpoints. You're not really striking them - or 'connecting' to them with your lightsaber. What happens is the more devastating the attack (IE the attack succeeds) the more vitality it takes to avoid being sliced in half. Battles are a question of stamina. That's why you can take stamina packs to increase your vitality, and medpacs which are really just 'herbs and spices' to give you a jumpstart - like sticking an ungoldly mixture of caffeine and stimulants directly into your blood.

To give you some perspective, imagine if your vitality were reduced to 0. but you're still standing. After this point, any damage you receive goes against your Constitution. Since most people wouldn't have a Con over 20, and since by the end your lightsaber damage is something ridiculous, basically you're cut in half.

That last paragraph is how it works in the P&P version of the game, but I use it here as a kind of analogy.

AH! So they have essentially fixed the ridiculous old hit points system in D20. I did not know that.

That... was... AWESOME. I don't think that's in the xbox version, because when I did the PC ending i nearly jumped out of my chair in surprise.

Indeed. Other than that, we had the Vader-esque bullying of the staff, the quasi-BDZing of Taris, all stuff we'd really seen before. Arguably it could be said to resemble the helmetless Vader scene from TESB, but it was jolting enough to really make a good scene.

That entire sequence was the best part of the game IMO. It makes visiting Korriban a treat. The call to arms by Malak... glimpsing Bastila as tip of the hat to what happens to her in KOTOR 1, the charge over the minefield... "apathy is death"... and the confrontation with Revan (in the Starforge robes!). It was all very nice.

Of course, I'm wondering how Revan kinda missed it the last time he was in that neck of the woods. "Hmm.. Ulic Qel Droma's robes, kickass... oh what's this, an entrance to a secret tomb! Should I check it out? Well, Bastila is kind of getting tortured by Malak right now, so I guess I don't really have time..."

The glitch that made 'Apathy is death' the only valid answer knocked major points off the scene for me. Minefield was a very good scene because either you get a warm buzz for protecting your troops if you're playing light side, or a cold glow of evil satisfaction at charging them over the bridge if you're dark side. Very well-crafted scene.

Revan not spotting it could be put down to the fact that the Force did not intend for him to see it, whereas it did intend for the Exile to find it. So he just sort of had a blind spot and overlooked the entrance. That or some post-KOTOR excavation could have opened the previously blocked entrance. Even after the big slaughter, the academy was still semi-operational for a while, after all.

It was probably one of those movie comedy scenes, where the guy leans on a rock and suddenly the wall slides open...

[Imperial Overlord]

That was always the rational for the D&D hitpoint system. Only the last bunch was real damage. The first bunch was luck and you exhausting yourself not getting fried, chopped, etcetera.

[GeneralTacticus]

Concerning 'Apathy is Death': Turning on Kreia is also a valid option, although it does give Dark Side Points.

As for Tobin - as I understood it, Kreia used him to draw Nihilus to Telos so that he could be killed. When she resurrects him, she says something along the lines of 'the Jedi have revealed themselves - they have a secret academy on Telos'. Then she sends him off to tell his Master, who turns out to be Nihilus. Thus, Nihilus turns up to eat Telos and gets bitch-slapped by the Exile.

EDIT: That was actually one of the few end-game plot points that made any sense, although there's no equivalent event if you side with Vaklu.

[Petrosjko]

That was always the rational for the D&D hitpoint system. Only the last bunch was real damage. The first bunch was luck and you exhausting yourself not getting fried, chopped, etcetera.

Yeah, I remember the 2nd Ed rationale that said that the difference between a 70HP fighter taking 6 HP of damage and a 10HP fighter taking 6 HP was that the veteran fighter took it as a minor cut, whereas it was a fairly critical wound for the rookie. I prefer the wearing-out version better, though.

Of course, the system still breaks down for noncombat damage, but c'est la vie.

Concerning 'Apathy is Death': Turning on Kreia is also a valid option, although it does give Dark Side Points.

As for Tobin - as I understood it, Kreia used him to draw Nihilus to Telos so that he could be killed. When she resurrects him, she says something along the lines of 'the Jedi have revealed themselves - they have a secret academy on Telos'. Then she sends him off to tell his Master, who turns out to be Nihilus. Thus, Nihilus turns up to eat Telos and gets bitch-slapped by the Exile.

EDIT: That was actually one of the few end-game plot points that made any sense, although there's no equivalent event if you side with Vaklu.

Hey Tact, feel free to drop Raul in somewhere over in the 40K game. We miss you.

Back on topic, when I turned on Kreia as a Sith, it still kicked me back to the beginning after the fight, with the addition of dark side points, and left me with the only real option being 'Apathy is death'.

And cool on the Tobin thing. If only they'd rendered the final scene with him better, too.

[Stark]

That was always the rational for the D&D hitpoint system. Only the last bunch was real damage. The first bunch was luck and you exhausting yourself not getting fried, chopped, etcetera.

I agree. Non-moron D&D players have been forced to use this rationale for literally DECADES. It falls apart very quickly, however - what with damage multipliers, resistances, and shit. It obviously IS in fact hitpoints: D&D is an abomination. So many better systems... modelling broken bones and blood loss is so cool... sliding reflexive skill modifiers reflecting who has dominance of a battle... it goes on. D&D's popularity is the worst thing to happen to P&P RPGs ever - it's a literal dark age.

Sorry for the OT :S

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm not defending it, just explaining it. I agree, major surgery is necessary. <Insert Earthdawn plug here>. Now back to your regularily scheduled bitching.

[Vympel]

I think I'd much rather complain about the absurdity of every fuck with a vibro[something] in the galaxy having a cortosis weave in it. What the hell is the point of a lightsabre if you *can't* cut through anything? Simple fact: mundane, non-Force using troops using blades will DIE in the first stroke in any reasonable depiction of the SW universe. That is what seriously irks me. No military would give cortosis-weave blades to their troops in case they fought Jedi. Jedi would kill them instantly anyway.

[Stark]

I think I'd much rather complain about the absurdity of every fuck with a vibro[something] in the galaxy having a cortosis weave in it. What the hell is the point of a lightsabre if you *can't* cut through anything? Simple fact: mundane, non-Force using troops using blades will DIE in the first stroke in any reasonable depiction of the SW universe. That is what seriously irks me. No military would give cortosis-weave blades to their troops in case they fought Jedi. Jedi would kill them instantly anyway.

It's still a result of using a D&D engine, however. 'To hit rolls' don't work well when your opponent is faster, cuts through your weapon, and sees the future. It's a shame they didn't put more thought into it: I imagine KOTOR combat bears little relation to on-screen combat.

[Darth Fanboy]

Basically none of your previous compatriots are covered in this game. So much for 'continuing Revan's story'. Where did the Ebon Hawk come from? We know T3 knows, but can it be revealed? Another loose end.

I thought Kreia got the Ebon Hawk from Revan prior to his departure from known space, with T3 and a gutted HK47 aboard.

[Petrosjko]

Which brings to mind the question of just what was the relationship between Kreia and Revan was just prior to the start of the game. Did Revan have any clue of her motives? Somehow, I don't think the whole 'destroying the Force' thing would have gone over so well, unless Revan figured that would also cripple the true Sith.

[Stofsk]

Kreia was Revan's master, he was her padawan. Once upon a time...

Though that doesn't explain how she acquired the Ebon Hawk. Or why revan decided to trust her with it. Or why Revan was off fucking around in another part of the universe, looking for some quasi-mythical 'Sith Empire' ALL ALONE, without his powerful allies, without a fucking SHIP to take him places. How was he supposed to investigate this threat? Flap his arms really fast and hold his breath in deep space?

Obsidian really dropped the ball in the plotting department.

And Vympel, I think you're forgetting that energy shields acted as a kind of equaliser. It's a shame we didn't see them used all that often, but combine shield with vibrosword, and a Jedi will have to use Force powers more than his lightsaber. Of course this has problems with it: shields are by no means common.

And Stark: first of all, D20 lightsabers cut through anything; secondly the reason why this isn't shown in the game is more than likely due to a limitation of the game engine. IOW they couldn't be fucked writing extra code that would have the vibroswords break after being sliced by a lightsaber. Big fucking deal. As it turns out, NO item in the game has durability, so there's no way to measure how an item breaks, unless it happens to be a door or chest which can be bashed. Equippable items don't have durability - even though armour is the most logical item to have this feature - so you can't expect the lightsaber to behave as demonstrated in the fucking films. Nevermind the fact that in the D20 rulebook, all items have 0 damage reduction when damaged by a lightsaber. But continue bashing D20 anyway, afterall that WAS the purpose of my thread... oh wait, no it wasn't.

[Petrosjko]

Yeah, I knew their early relationship, but I was wondering at what brought about their reunion, and what Revan's motives for setting her on the Exile were. We definitely could have used some exposition on that point.

As for leaving the Ebon Hawk behind, that could be explained away as the fact that it's a fairly notorious ship that had by the end of KOTOR become associated with him, so having it going in the opposite direction could buy him some breathing room. Especially if it's getting spotted at some of his old haunts, like Dantooine, Korriban, etc.

[Stofsk]

Yeah, I knew their early relationship, but I was wondering at what brought about their reunion, and what Revan's motives for setting her on the Exile were. We definitely could have used some exposition on that point.

You can say that about the whole game.

As for leaving the Ebon Hawk behind, that could be explained away as the fact that it's a fairly notorious ship that had by the end of KOTOR become associated with him, so having it going in the opposite direction could buy him some breathing room. Especially if it's getting spotted at some of his old haunts, like Dantooine, Korriban, etc.

So why leave Bastila behind? She didn't do anything by being left behind, she didn't help in starting a new council, a new Jedi Order. Carth makes sense, because he whines a lot. Canderous becomes Mandalore, but even he was dissatisfied about being left behind. Why dismantle HK-47? Leave T3 behind?

And what about the others: Zaalbar swore a LIFE DEBT to him. Where is he? Mission? Jolee and Juhani? They don't even rate a mention.

It smells like bullshit. It's as though the writers just didn't know what they wanted to do, so they just ignored it completely.

[Petrosjko]

So why leave Bastila behind? She didn't do anything by being left behind, she didn't help in starting a new council, a new Jedi Order.

She was talking kids, a house, picket fence, and so he invented this whole 'Sith Empire' thing and bailed.

Carth makes sense, because he whines a lot.

So very true.

Canderous becomes Mandalore, but even he was dissatisfied about being left behind.

Because Revan needed Canderous to reform the clans, so he would have an army when the time came. Canderous couldn't do that if he was dogging Revan's heels with his tongue hanging out like a puppy dog. "Boy, you kicked our asses good, Revan! You're the greatest ever!"

Why dismantle HK-47?

That might not have been Revan's doing. Perhaps the HK factory subplot would have explained that.

Leave T3 behind?

The quiet manipulator, the one that everyone overlooks because he's just an astromech droid. Very ideal.

And what about the others:

Zaalbar swore a LIFE DEBT to him. Where is he?

Wookie fur clogs the air filters.

Mission?

See: Carth, only substitute 'annoys' for 'whines'.

Jolee and Juhani? They don't even rate a mention.

Probably wiped out with Visas' homeworld.

Mind you, it's ridiculous that we should be having to speculate to fill in the blanks for them.

It smells like bullshit. It's as though the writers just didn't know what they wanted to do, so they just ignored it completely.

Agreed.

[Vympel]

Erm, just because it's KOTOR II doesn't mean that we have to rehash everything that happened in KOTOR I and know exactly what happens to each party member. I don't give a shit, personally. It's the story of the Exile, not Revan- for me, the cameos of the few characters we see were enough.

Note I have only played darkside KOTOR II, since I stopped playing on my second DS run when I encountered the infamous Dantooine black screen bug. I've been waiting for the patch ever bloody since.

[Stofsk]

Erm, just because it's KOTOR II doesn't mean that we have to rehash everything that happened in KOTOR I and know exactly what happens to each party member.

Too true. I don't really care about Zaalbar, Mission, Jolee and Juhani - well, Jolee was good, but I can expect he'd find a way to disappear anyway. But Bastila I cared about, and Carth I kinda sorta cared about... in a very small way. They deserved more than a 10 second cameo.

I don't give a shit, personally. It's the story of the Exile, not Revan- for me, the cameos of the few characters we see were enough.

Of course the principal story is about the Exile, but Revan's fate should not be automatically dismissed and handwaved away like they ended up doing. There's a lot of backstory from the first one that the sequel can take advantage of. S/He was the focal point of the first one; now s/he has vanished, and fate is unknown. That doesn't strike me as fair to the player, and I can only speak for myself but I expected more information to be revealed. Instead I have to fill in the blanks with my imagination, and while this is ok for somethings Petro happens to be right: we shouldn't have to speculate on matters that by all rights should have been covered in-game. And the way they were covered left a lot to be desired.

[Ghost Rider]

Funnily enough the dark side version gives an interesting bit about both Bastilla and well no mention of Carth(guess your DS version whacked the fool, finally).

Jolee's only other mention is off one item where it's mentioned he stalked off on his own, denoucing both the light and the Dark.

[White Haven]

Juhani can be written off as killed during the pogrom if need be, but BASTILA makes no sense. We know she lives, we know she was, if not a master, than a VERY powerful Jedi Knight by the end of KOTOR, and certainly didn't have any problems with indecision by then. I can't see how her character could possibly let her NOT get involved in a shadow Jedi war like KOTOR 2 ends up as. Hell, it would have made more sense to have HER as the PC, than some random Exile flunky with a Mysterious Past(tm).

[Vympel]

The Exile is NOT a flunky

He's a more interesting character than Revan because he remembers everything. Revan was an amnesiac and so we had to find everything out for ourselves. The best moments in KOTOR II was arguing with the Council in the flashback and telling Atris just where to shove it.

(DS of course)

[Petrosjko]

That's part of what's so maddening about the game. Pound for pound, the characterizations are so much better. Atton beats Carth easily, Kreia is fascinating, Visas is much cooler than Bastila, etc.

[White Haven]

Oh, no argument there. The Exile is a more interesting CHARACTER, but the storytelling is fucking OBNOXIOUS surrounding him. I'm sorry, but if you want to have a character with a meaningful, important-to-the-story past who HASN'T FORGOTTEN IT, then your game needs fucking exposition. I /loathe/ having shit that, storyline-wise, I already 'know' spoon-fed to me over the course of the game.

[Stark]

And Stark: first of all, D20 lightsabers cut through anything; secondly the reason why this isn't shown in the game is more than likely due to a limitation of the game engine. IOW they couldn't be fucked writing extra code that would have the vibroswords break after being sliced by a lightsaber. Big fucking deal. As it turns out, NO item in the game has durability, so there's no way to measure how an item breaks, unless it happens to be a door or chest which can be bashed. Equippable items don't have durability - even though armour is the most logical item to have this feature - so you can't expect the lightsaber to behave as demonstrated in the fucking films. Nevermind the fact that in the D20 rulebook, all items have 0 damage reduction when damaged by a lightsaber. But continue bashing D20 anyway, afterall that WAS the purpose of my thread... oh wait, no it wasn't.

Except you DON'T need durability: any kind of %-to-penetrate would've worked fine. Adding sabre parrying blades is a hack. I'm not bothered by ANIMATION (since when did ROTJ have proper 'sabre-cutting-rulezor' onscreen: people just fell down), merely that they debased lightsabre combat so much, due to the limitations of the D20 engine, which you ironically demonstrated better than I could have. But whatever: KOTOR fans aren't in it for realistic lightsabre combat, obviously. Sorry about polluting your thread, though.