What-if situation, could the Feddies pull it off?

[Zwinmar]

Alright, assumeing the Empire has a week at most to respond to a wormhole (a phenomina they have never seen before). Stratigically it would make good sense to deploy a large enough force to guard the wormhole, while smaller ships explore the other side. One ship comeing back with some data about some backwoods hicks means nothing, they have a whole new galaxy that could contain a major threat.

Not to mention, it is perfectly plausable that the likes of Vader and the Emporer get a feeling of what could be danger, a disterbance in the force, especially from a meglomaniac trickster such as Q. Therefore, when the first reports come in that this phenomina has opened (escpecially if its close to core worlds) they would deploy a large force, possiblly several sector forces at the least to ensure that if there is a battle there will be a sufficient force to defeat all unknowns.

[Scrubula]

Therefore, when the first reports come in that this phenomina has opened (escpecially if its close to core worlds) they would deploy a large force, possiblly several sector forces at the least to ensure that if there is a battle there will be a sufficient force to defeat all unknowns.

Um, they didn't even assemble a fleet this large to fight the rebellion, which defeated them and destroyed the emperor and the empire. I don't see this event causing them to either feel such a disturbance in the force (since there is no danger coming from the wormhole, or assembling such a powerful fleet. It's completly unprecedented in SW for this to happen and there's no reason to think they would suddenly decide to do this.

[Karza]

That would make sense if he was referring to an X-wing (or a small fighter), but on the other hand it wouldn't make sense as the computing power of a small fighter can hardly be used to judge the average or high end computers of a universe.

Not to mention that there are starfighter computers that can calculate a hyperspace jump. A-Wings, B-Wings, TIE Avengers etc. have hyperdrives but don't need an astromech droid.[/i]

[Karza]

Um, they didn't even assemble a fleet this large to fight the rebellion, which defeated them and destroyed the emperor and the empire. I don't see this event causing them to either feel such a disturbance in the force (since there is no danger coming from the wormhole, or assembling such a powerful fleet. It's completly unprecedented in SW for this to happen and there's no reason to think they would suddenly decide to do this.

I assume you mean the final battle in ROTJ? That was because of the Emperor's arrogance, and the fact that they KNEW WHAT THEY WOULD BE UP AGAINST. If the rebels hadn't lucked out on Endor, the fleet would've been more than adequate to wipe out the entire rebel fleet.

You can't honestly be so stupid to think the empire would leave a wormhole to a whole new galaxy practically unguarded, and base this decision on the fact that the initial encounter there was an easy one. For fuck's sake, it's a totally unknown galaxy. And even if Total Unknown Next Door (tm) isn't sufficient reason to blockade the wormhole (yeah, right), it would still be blockaded to keep the rebels out of that galaxy.

[Zwinmar]

Therefore, when the first reports come in that this phenomina has opened (escpecially if its close to core worlds) they would deploy a large force, possiblly several sector forces at the least to ensure that if there is a battle there will be a sufficient force to defeat all unknowns.

Um, they didn't even assemble a fleet this large to fight the rebellion, which defeated them and destroyed the emperor and the empire. I don't see this event causing them to either feel such a disturbance in the force (since there is no danger coming from the wormhole, or assembling such a powerful fleet. It's completly unprecedented in SW for this to happen and there's no reason to think they would suddenly decide to do this.

First: In the movies, the rebellion was centered in the outer and mid rim areas, no were near the prime core worlds, so the assumption that the military would do nothing when a new, possible major threat that opened up in the densesest and strategicaly place core worlds is a major issue.

Second: It would cause a disterbance, why? because instead of Jedi, the Emporer would get a feeling of beings such as Q and other would be gods of the STverse, who are a threat. And the Fed's would opposed the Emporer so they are a threat. Remember Toprawa (sp?), they got BDZ'd for something a magnatude less than this.

Third: The first thing a military does when it encounters an unknown that could be a risk is they form a perimiter with the closest ships to find out what exactly it is. It would be stupid not to, and the Imps are not stupid, dispite what some people would say to the contrary

[Techno_Union]

Um, they didn't even assemble a fleet this large to fight the rebellion, which defeated them and destroyed the emperor and the empire.

I assume you're talking about RotJ? You know, the battle where the Emperor wanted the DS II to pick off the Rebels, hence the order not to attack? And, for clarification purposes, the Rebel fleet at Endor did not defeat the Empire or kill the Emperor. IIRC, Vader killed the Emperor.

I don't see this event causing them to either feel such a disturbance in the force (since there is no danger coming from the wormhole, or assembling such a powerful fleet. It's completly unprecedented in SW for this to happen and there's no reason to think they would suddenly decide to do this.

Why do you keep ignoring the example I cited? It is NOT unprecedented for the Empire to do something like this.

[Scrubula]

You can't honestly be so stupid to think the empire would leave a wormhole to a whole new galaxy practically unguarded, and base this decision on the fact that the initial encounter there was an easy one. For fuck's sake, it's a totally unknown galaxy.

I'm saying it's highly doubtful that a 500+ capital ship fleet would be assembled and dispatched in a few days, not that they would leave the wormhole unprotected. The galaxy is in turmoil for pretty much the entire rule of the evil empire after all.

Second: It would cause a disterbance, why? because instead of Jedi, the Emporer would get a feeling of beings such as Q and other would be gods of the STverse, who are a threat. And the Fed's would opposed the Emporer so they are a threat. Remember Toprawa (sp?), they got BDZ'd for something a magnatude less than this.

Q would not be detected by the emperor unless he wanted to be, first of all. Second of all, there's no reason to believe that any force user could sense Q or anything else from the Trek side at all. You saying it would be so is nice and all, but not proof.

[Mobiboros]

Q would not be detected by the emperor unless he wanted to be, first of all. Second of all, there's no reason to believe that any force user could sense Q or anything else from the Trek side at all. You saying it would be so is nice and all, but not proof.

So you're assuming that Q could stop the force users from sensing him with no evidence for his ability to do so?

[Scrubula]

So you're assuming that Q could stop the force users from sensing him with no evidence for his ability to do so?

Are you assuming that the emperor could sense Q, even if Q didn't want him to, with no evidence for his ability to do so?

Considering that Q seems capable of doing anything he can think of, with the exception of messing with other Q in some cases, I don't see why he couldn't stop force users from sensing him.

Q takes a form absent of meta-clorins or whatever the hell they are called. No metaclorins, no connection to the force, equals no way for force users to sense him.

There are natural occuring null force areas and life forms in SW right? Give me one good reason why Q couldn't create such a zone with snap of his fingers.

And until a SW/ST combo movie comes out showing the truth of the matter one way or the other, I'd say the smart money is on the nearly limitless power of the Q over the comparably weak power of the emperor, who couldn't even see his own death at the hands of Vader until Vader manhandled him and tossed him down the pit like so much trash.

[Batman]

So you're assuming that Q could stop the force users from sensing him with no evidence for his ability to do so?

Are you assuming that the emperor could sense Q, even if Q didn't want him to, with no evidence for his ability to do so?

Evidence for Q preventing people from sensing their presence?

Considering that Q seems capable of doing anything he can think of,

Which is of course complete garbage,

with the exception of messing with other Q in some cases, I don't see why he couldn't stop force users from sensing him.

And you have, of course, evidence for that.

Q takes a form absent of meta-clorins or whatever the hell they are called. No metaclorins, no connection to the force, equals no way for force users to sense him.

You're kidding, right?
One word-rock.

There are natural occuring null force areas and life forms in SW right?

So?

Give me one good reason why Q couldn't create such a zone with snap of his fingers.

The fact that he has never done so comes to mind.

And until a SW/ST combo movie comes out showing the truth of the matter one way or the other, I'd say the smart money is on the nearly limitless power of the Q

As evidenced by nothing whatsoever

over the comparably weak power of the emperor,

DE. Force Storms. You were saying?

who couldn't even see his own death at the hands of Vader until Vader manhandled him and tossed him down the pit like so much trash.

As opposed to Q seeing he would be stripped of his powers. Oh wait he didn't.

[Stark]

Don't let him off that easily: he shouldn't be allowed to walk away quietly from his 'Empire never uses large fleets - look at Endor' claim. Not that there's much to say, since there are many examples of enourmous fleets gathered to achieve some strategic goal, and there's a simple reason why the fleet at Endor was small - while still large enough to defeat the rebels. How he thinks the Emperor was defeated BY THE REBELS I don't know. So, conceed or challenge, dumbass.

Just when I thought it was all over, he moves the goalposts by introducing Q! Just what that has to do with the OP is anyones guess, but the Q issue has been done to death: they're obviously not the 't3h omn1ptoent' trollboy here thinks they are. But wait - he couldn't analyse the Endor battle either! Can we see a pattern here?

[Karza]

Not to mention that there are starfighter computers that can calculate a hyperspace jump. A-Wings, B-Wings, TIE Avengers etc. have hyperdrives but don't need an astromech droid.

Hell's bells. Does a TIE Avenger actually have a hyperdrive? TIE Defender and Advanced x1 have it, but at least the starwars.com didn't mention anything about a hyperdrive on an Avenger. So which way is it?

Well, at least the point still remains.

[Scrubula]

My god Batman, do you ever actually debate, or just naysay and play the really annoying devils advocate?

Lets see just how easy it is to do what you are doing, which is not even close to debating.

Evidence for Q preventing people from sensing their presence?

Evidence for Q being sensed by someone he did not wish to be sensed by?

Which is of course complete garbage,

Evidence that Q was ever incapable of doing something that he wanted to do? (That didn't involve other Q)

And you have, of course, evidence for that.

And you of course have evidence of force users sensing him when he did not wish to be senses?

You're kidding, right?
One word-rock.

So, um, do you consider rocks a living thing? No? Wow, me neither. So, what's your point again?

The fact that he has never done so comes to mind.

Damn your reasoning here sure is astounding! Let's see what else we can rule out. Well, for starters, no SW ship can hit or harm a ST ship, because we've never seen it. Force powers don't work on ST races, because we've never seen it. The DS cannot destroy any planet other than Alderan, because we've never seen it. Etc, etc. Damn, this is easy. No wonder you don't actually debate, this is much simpler to do.

As evidenced by nothing whatsoever

So the fact that Q can seemingly do anything he desires with the snap of his fingers and willing it to be so doesn't count as evidence of his power to you?

DE. Force Storms. You were saying?

Force Storms? That's supposed to compare to Q's power?
Q can erase entire races from history as if they never existed, and you think a Force Storm somehow puts them on the same level?

As opposed to Q seeing he would be stripped of his powers. Oh wait he didn't.

And who stripped him of his powers? Oh, right, it was the race of beings he is one of. You know, the race who all have the same abilities as Q himself.

Start posting something that actually resembles a counter point or arguement. Please? Pretty please?

This mindless naysaying and devils advocating is fun and all, but it's not going anywhere.

[Batman]

Evidence for Q preventing people from sensing their presence?

Evidence for Q being sensed by someone he did not wish to be sensed by?

Sorry, that's not how the game is played. YOU claim they can hide their presence, YOU provide evidence.
Evidence for Jedi sensing people is all over the place. Evidence for Q preventing people from sensing them is-where?
There's a lot of people around who can lecture me about debating. You're definitely not one of them.

Which is of course complete garbage,

Evidence that Q was ever incapable of doing something that he wanted to do? (That didn't involve other Q)

Asking me to prove a negative, eh? Thanks for playing.
I do NOT have to show he can't. YOU have to show he CAN.

And you have, of course, evidence for that.

And you of course have evidence of force users sensing him when he did not wish to be senses?

Don't need any. I have evidence for Force users sensing people's prsesence. Unless you have evidence for him PREVENTING people from sensing him, I win. I don't need to prove his inability to do something he has NEVER EVER IN ALL OF STAR TREK BEEN SHOWN TO DO.
You have evidence to the contrary? Provide it fucktard.

You're kidding, right?
One word-rock.

So, um, do you consider rocks a living thing? No? Wow, me neither. So, what's your point again?

They can sense the rock, shithead. No reason they can't sense Q as midichlorians are obviously a nonfactor.

The fact that he has never done so comes to mind.

SNIPPY pointless jabber

So, are you presenting a counter anytime soon?

So the fact that Q can seemingly do anything he desires with the snap of his fingers and willing it to be so doesn't count as evidence of his power to you?

NO. He can do exactly what he was seen to do and nothing more. Unless he was seen to prevent ESP detection of his presence he can't.
U thought YOU wanted to lecture ME about debating.

DE. Force Storms. You were saying?

Force Storms? That's supposed to compare to Q's power?

As those Storms are a personal power and of a verified (sorta) magnitude while Q's might be tech and it's extent is pretty much up for grabs, absolutely.

Q can erase entire races from history as if they never existed,

As evidenced by what?

and you think a Force Storm somehow puts them on the same level?

Not at all. Since, assuming Q actually did that in the first place, he might have used a shitload of technology to do so, while the Force Storms are definitely a personal power, Palapatine is by far superior.

As opposed to Q seeing he would be stripped of his powers. Oh wait he didn't.

And who stripped him of his powers? Oh, right, it was the race of beings he is one of. You know, the race who all have the same abilities as Q himself.

Your point being?

Start posting something that actually resembles a counter point or arguement. Please? Pretty please?

Coming from you, that's pretty funny.
Were you human it would propably be sad to a degree but since the intelligence you've displayed so far is more in line with a bacterium I can't say I care much.

[consequences]

Well, Scrubbie, we already know what happens when someone uses logic and numbers to crush your whining, you ignore it and concentrate on whinging about people not providing evidence, while you ignore all civilised rules of debate, and never, ever actually provide evidence of your own.

[Star-Blighter]

You can't honestly be so stupid to think the empire would leave a wormhole to a whole new galaxy practically unguarded, and base this decision on the fact that the initial encounter there was an easy one. For fuck's sake, it's a totally unknown galaxy.

I'm saying it's highly doubtful that a 500+ capital ship fleet would be assembled and dispatched in a few days, not that they would leave the wormhole unprotected. The galaxy is in turmoil for pretty much the entire rule of the evil empire after all.

Second: It would cause a disterbance, why? because instead of Jedi, the Emporer would get a feeling of beings such as Q and other would be gods of the STverse, who are a threat. And the Fed's would opposed the Emporer so they are a threat. Remember Toprawa (sp?), they got BDZ'd for something a magnatude less than this.

Q would not be detected by the emperor unless he wanted to be, first of all. Second of all, there's no reason to believe that any force user could sense Q or anything else from the Trek side at all. You saying it would be so is nice and all, but not proof.

A 500 capship fleet would only be so much overkill. TEN ISDs escorting an Allegiance class stardestroyer would outgun the force provided to the federation twice over. And it is NOT unreasonable that such a force would be sent to reconoiter an unknown space anomaly from which THEIR OWN fucking ships are emerging from and acting hostile.

Remember, the Rebels would have been completely shit-canned from the start if the Endor shield generater strike was not made. There is no reason to think otherwise. AT ALL.

Quit exagerating.

NOW.

[Star-Blighter]

Hey Scrubula, here is the OP incase you forgot.

Alright, Picard is off trying to find out what happened to two Galaxy Class ships when Q shows up, with gifts. Five fully functioning, unmanned Imperial Star Destroyers just pop into existence, containing within their data-banks through the magic of Q-Tech a sort of "Everything You Wanted to Know About the Empire, but Were Afraid to Ask" Encyclopedia, which contains everything from detailed plans for Imperial Shipyards and ships, to troop and ship deployments, to personell files, to the Emperor's middle name (Alfonz.) He gives a warning however, and says that the Empire is coming in roughly ten years. Q throws Picard (his dear friend) another bone, however, in that if the Federation can win TWO major fleet engagements, Q will close the wormhole connecting the Galaxies, however if they can't, the show is over and Q will even make sure it stays over, preventing time-travel, technobabble, or any other said deus ex machina.

On the other hand we have the ISD, lets call it, Indefagitable who has just gone through a wormhole, blasted two galaxy class star-ships, retrieved their databanks, and gone back home to give HQ the word about this new Galaxy for conquest. Even though it'll seem like mere days to them, when they next go through the Wormhole ten years will have passed in the Federation Galaxy.


So, can the Federation win?

Don't see anything about Q helping either side, just Q setting the stage for the VS.

P.S. Trying to pull a Q miracle out of your ass shows just how fucked up your reasoning is. And how desperate you are to win a vs that can't be won outside of dishonest tactics.

[Scrubula]

Don't see anything about Q helping either side, just Q setting the stage for the VS.

...Q shows up, with gifts. Five fully functioning, unmanned Imperial Star Destroyers just pop into existence, containing within their data-banks through the magic of Q-Tech a sort of "Everything You Wanted to Know About the Empire, but Were Afraid to Ask" Encyclopedia, which contains everything from detailed plans for Imperial Shipyards and ships, to troop and ship deployments, to personell files, to the Emperor's middle name (Alfonz.)

Your right, that doesnt sound like Q is helping them at all. Gee, how foolish of me to think that he did.

Not that it matters. My whole point wasn't that Q would be helping them win , but that no force users would sense Q's presence if he did not wish it. No one has proven that he could.

Batman posted

snip useless drivel

Are you actually going to post some evidence/proof for anything, or can we assume it will all be naysaying and devils advocating from now on and completly ignore your posts?

Here, I'll try to handle this the batman way. (you should change your name btw, you do great discredit to one of the greatest logical, deductive minds in comics)

Zwinmar posted

the Emporer would get a feeling of beings such as Q and other would be gods of the STverse, who are a threat. And the Fed's would opposed the Emporer so they are a threat.

Proof that the emporer can detect ST beings such as Q? Proof that the Emporer can sense ST at all through the wormhole?

Now, by Batmans logic, I've just countered this argument until proof is provided for the Emporer to sense Q and sense things through a wormhole at all.

[consequences]

Well, you've just passed up the chance to keep me being polite so here goes:

Hey, Fuckwad! Respond to my last post, or concede by default, and be forever known as a worthless little fucking bitch.

[Batman]

Not that it matters. My whole point wasn't that Q would be helping them win , but that no force users would sense Q's presence if he did not wish it. No one has proven that he could.

For the quadrillionth time-we do not need to. UNTIL YOU SHOW THE Q CAN PREVENT OTHERS FROM SENSING THEM yes, Jedi can do so.

Batman posted

snip useless drivel

Are you actually going to post some evidence/proof for anything, or can we assume it will all be naysaying and devils advocating from now on and completly ignore your posts?

I'm going to post evidence when you do, as all you posted in the snipped part was complete garbage.
One word:SCALE.

Here, I'll try to handle this the batman way. (you should change your name btw, you do great discredit to one of the greatest logical, deductive minds in comics)

How did Terry put it? Ha(significant pause)-Ha.

[Lord Pounder]

Q isn't helping the Federation, he's a plot device to make this senario happen you illiterate vomitous pig fucker. In no other part of the OP did it say Q would help the feds with the exception of closing the wormhole IF the feds win 2 major engagements. Thats major engagements BTW not killing a single Star Destroyer in a 5 - 1 fight.

[Scrubula]

Are all warsies as ignorant as you guys? Do you all leap to childish insults so quickly when you have nothing of value to say?

I never said Q would be helping the Feds win beyond what the OP states. I have however proved that Q is well beyond the scope and power of any Jedi/Sith.

For the quadrillionth time-we do not need to. UNTIL YOU SHOW THE Q CAN PREVENT OTHERS FROM SENSING THEM yes, Jedi can do so.

And again, you are dead wrong. You yourself are fond of saying 'can't prove a negative.' Therefore, the burden of proof lies squarely with you to prove that Jedi/Sith CAN sense Q, not for me to prove they can't. Of course, judging by your posting history, you don't seem to think you need evidence for any of the garbage you spew.

The fact that lifeforms/natural occurances exist that block and/or prevent the force, coupled with the fact that Q can alter his form/surroundings at will, in such a way as to change universal constants if he so desires, it's a very small leap in logic to see that Q could mess with force users in any damn way he pleased, including not being sensed.

[consequences]

Are all warsies as ignorant as you guys? Do you all leap to childish insults so quickly when you have nothing of value to say?

I never said Q would be helping the Feds win beyond what the OP states. I have however proved that Q is well beyond the scope and power of any Jedi/Sith.

For the quadrillionth time-we do not need to. UNTIL YOU SHOW THE Q CAN PREVENT OTHERS FROM SENSING THEM yes, Jedi can do so.

And again, you are dead wrong. You yourself are fond of saying 'can't prove a negative.' Therefore, the burden of proof lies squarely with you to prove that Jedi/Sith CAN sense Q, not for me to prove they can't. Of course, judging by your posting history, you don't seem to think you need evidence for any of the garbage you spew.

The fact that lifeforms/natural occurances exist that block and/or prevent the force, coupled with the fact that Q can alter his form/surroundings at will, in such a way as to change universal constants if he so desires, it's a very small leap in logic to see that Q could mess with force users in any damn way he pleased, including not being sensed.

Concession accepted, bitch.

Well, folks we can go home now, he's decided not to argue the Empire's ability to gain access to ST computers, or the Imperial's firepower advantage.

[Stark]

Did Scrubber REALLY just admit he's talking about the Q, even though its irrelevant to the discussion?

[Straha]

Scrubster, read the op about Q Helping them

Q throws Picard (his dear friend) another bone, however, in that if the Federation can win TWO major fleet engagements, Q will close the wormhole connecting the Galaxies, however if they can't, the show is over and Q will even make sure it stays over, preventing time-travel, technobabble, or any other said deus ex machina.

Q is not helping them here, in fact quite the opposite, he's hurting them here by making them fight a straight fight. Otherwise the federation would try and pull someshit out of its ass.

I do have a question about the Emperor detecting Q though, if I recall correctly most people here agree that the Q are most likley a 'normal' species that is just very technologically advanced, so why would the emperor 'detect him' if this is so? Further more do we know how close things have to be for the emperor to detect, or recognize, because Darth Vader didn't detect/recognize either Obi-Wan or Luke when he was at (relativley) close range, so why would the emperor detect Q from Light Years away?