Empire enslaved the Wookiees... or did they?

[Kurgan]

Been thinking about this, and now I'm guessing it might have been done (assuming Lucas doesn't steamroll the idea) as a political gesture... ie: to "make an example" of the Wookiees to instill fear in other systems for the price of disobedience or something like that.

Or perhaps there was a big profit to be made by "selling" them out to some other power (like the Trandoshans). After all, the Empire needs money, right?

So there could be some reasons other than just being evil, again assuming they keep the idea in canon.

Actually Kurgan what would make the most sense would be if the Empire simply reclassified them as non=sentient animals. Think about it is a dog a slave? How about a cow or a donkey.

We know the Empire was human-centric. The Empire doesn't need to enslave them, simply take there rights. Then the Trasndoan move in and sell the Wookiees as exotic animals. Live we sell lions and tiger in RL.

Ofcourse the tree hugging rebel alliance (think PETA) would consider keeping what would technically now be a dog as slavery.

Their problem solved: no need to used Wookies as construction workers rather than far superior droids, and theirs a reason for them to be kept in bondage.

They must have had one hell of a propaganda machine, because the Wookiees held Senate seats just a few decades prior.

One can consider slaves to be biological equals, just with their legal rights taken away, whereas a pet is something completely different. I realize that in our American history the slave mentality is combined with racism (viewing blacks as "inferior subhuman race" so as to justify their being enslaved), but slavery itself need not reclassify the slave as non-sentient. After all, prison chain gangs could be viewed as a form of slave labor, and while it is certainly "dehumanizing" they are not viewed as household pets, just humans who's rights have been restricted as punishment. In history also we have societies where slaves were not held for life, but could gain their freedom after a period of service or through some accomplishment. This would lend credence to the idea that they were not always viewed as just some animal that could never be integrated into society.

This whole post was brought up because I was thinking after playing the Republic Commando demo (where it talks about the Wookiees) and in the context of the prequels. I'm not taking for granted the stuff we thought we know from the EU about it.

Oh well, we'll see if they try to explain it...

[NecronLord]

The new canon fits the slavery scheme in a quite satisfactory manner IMO.

[Kurgan]

Ok cool.

[Admiral Felire]

The new canon fits the slavery scheme in a quite satisfactory manner IMO.

I don't really see how. It seems, rather, that their is actually no support to the concept of racism and sexism within the Empire if one just uses the movies.

For example, in Episode 1 the Republic ship is crewed only by humans. Does that meant that aliens cannot join the Republic.

Also, in the Origonal Trilogy we only see a small percenatge of the Imperial Military. Not enough to actually say that women or aliens cannot join. May crews are segregated according to racial lines. I mean its easier to supply atmosphere, gravity, food and equipment to a crew made up of a single type of species rather than one crewed by multiple races.

All I'm saying is that while the Empire is bad, their actually is no real proof that the Empire does not allow women or aliens to join its military and government.

I would like actual evidence from within the movies, otherwise I don't see how racism or sexism can be automatically assumed (and you know what they say when you assume - you make an ass out of you and me).

It just seems, and this is entirely my opinion, that the writers of the EU decided that because the Empire was the badguys that they had to do everything else bad as well. And as aforementioned, droids work better than slave labor.

[The Original Nex]

NecLord meant that the film (RotS) supports (or at least swings with) WOOKIEE slavery in the Empire, not slavery and predjudice in general, though that can't be ruled out.

[Lord Revan]

I don't really see how. It seems, rather, that their is actually no support to the concept of racism and sexism within the Empire if one just uses the movies.

For example, in Episode 1 the Republic ship is crewed only by humans. Does that meant that aliens cannot join the Republic.

Also, in the Origonal Trilogy we only see a small percenatge of the Imperial Military. Not enough to actually say that women or aliens cannot join. May crews are segregated according to racial lines. I mean its easier to supply atmosphere, gravity, food and equipment to a crew made up of a single type of species rather than one crewed by multiple races.

All I'm saying is that while the Empire is bad, their actually is no real proof that the Empire does not allow women or aliens to join its military and government.

I would like actual evidence from within the movies, otherwise I don't see how racism or sexism can be automatically assumed (and you know what they say when you assume - you make an ass out of you and me).

It just seems, and this is entirely my opinion, that the writers of the EU decided that because the Empire was the badguys that they had to do everything else bad as well. And as aforementioned, droids work better than slave labor.

since EU is Canon unless counterdicted by the movies (or movie based material) and in PT EU there's begining's racism (for example Tarkin talk of Human taking over and in LoE there's security programs that prevent certain aliens accessing certain areas (like Corusant itself)

[The Original Nex]

Yeah, I enjoyed the "COMPOR" statement, looks like COMPNOR got its beginnings way back in the Clone Wars. . .

[Admiral Felire]

NecLord meant that the film (RotS) supports (or at least swings with) WOOKIEE slavery in the Empire, not slavery and predjudice in general, though that can't be ruled out.

Not to be all fighty, but I don't see it. I read the book so I know what happens but (this is a spoilor for Episode III, I am not sure that this post allows it so I am being careful) the Wookies are attacked by the Separtists and protected by the Republic. How does this explain them becoming slaves.

Maybe its just me, and if it is I appoligise, but otherwise I don't see it.

[The Original Nex]

NecLord meant that the film (RotS) supports (or at least swings with) WOOKIEE slavery in the Empire, not slavery and predjudice in general, though that can't be ruled out.

Not to be all fighty, but I don't see it. I read the book so I know what happens but (this is a spoilor for Episode III, I am not sure that this post allows it so I am being careful) the Wookies are attacked by the Separtists and protected by the Republic. How does this explain them becoming slaves.

Maybe its just me, and if it is I appoligise, but otherwise I don't see it.

You're missing the part AFTER, when The Wookiees attack Imperial forces after Order 66 in order to save Yoda. This situation is not resolved in the film and it's easy to believe that the Empire enslaved the Wookiees as punishment for their actions, rather than for an actual need for labor.

[Admiral Felire]

You're missing the part AFTER, when The Wookiees attack Imperial forces after Order 66 in order to save Yoda. This situation is not resolved in the film and it's easy to believe that the Empire enslaved the Wookiees as punishment for their actions, rather than for an actual need for labor.

Oh okay. I did miss that. Is that mentioned in the book and if it is do you know the page number. Not that I don't beleive you its just that I would like to read it. I thought that the book did not cover that part of the movie cause its all action.

With that I retract my statement about the Wookies, cause that particualr form of slavery makes sense. Still, I do stand by my thought that the Empire does not necessary have to be racism and sexist.

[Kurgan]

I don't really see how. It seems, rather, that their is actually no support to the concept of racism and sexism within the Empire if one just uses the movies.

For example, in Episode 1 the Republic ship is crewed only by humans. Does that meant that aliens cannot join the Republic.

We have the Senate and the Jedi Council, both of which are made up of plenty of non-human aliens.

Also, in the Origonal Trilogy we only see a small percenatge of the Imperial Military. Not enough to actually say that women or aliens cannot join.

I suppose we could also argue that the small percentage we see of the Jedi Knights and the Senate could also mean that they are mostly white males (the ones we don't see) who speak with British or American accents.

May crews are segregated according to racial lines. I mean its easier to supply atmosphere, gravity, food and equipment to a crew made up of a single type of species rather than one crewed by multiple races.

Not necessarily. Only if they breath different air and have radically different physiologies. Don't tell me a woman is going to be unable to function on the same ship as a male of her species? Or how about somebody like Grand Admiral Thrawn, who for all intents and purposes is a blue human with red eyes. What "special needs" would have he have that would necessitate having a crew entirely compossed of chiss?

'Sides in the Imperial military you have tons of people wearing helmets and things over their faces anyway, who would know?

Anyway, while your examples have merit, there's also counter examples.

Plo Koon wears a breath mask because he supposedly comes from an atmosphere that's toxic to others or something (he can't breath normal air) yet he sits around the Jedi Council chambers all day with no problem. They didn't have to redesign the entire building around him did they? He didn't need a seperate council full of Kel Dorians right? All he needed was that little bitty mask. It was quite portable.

All I'm saying is that while the Empire is bad, their actually is no real proof that the Empire does not allow women or aliens to join its military and government.

The EU says the Empire is racist and sexist. It also says that there were secretly all these alien admirals and female admirals and even possibly alien stormtroopers, etc. Even though the Empire killed all the Jedi you still have all these lost Force users. I think they want to have their cake and eat it too, sometimes. That's why you have people trying to attack and support the notion that the Empire was this/that/or the other thing using the same material. It's inconsistent.

Should we dismiss it ALL as propaganda? Some of it? How do we tell the difference (if the source itself doesn't say so)? We can use the standard canon arguments, I'm just wondernig if ROTS will be any help in answering this question, or if things will stay the same.

I would like actual evidence from within the movies, otherwise I don't see how racism or sexism can be automatically assumed (and you know what they say when you assume - you make an ass out of you and me).

The standard responses are "where are you taking this thing" and the fact that we don't see any aliens or women EVER in the Imperial military, not even any racial minorities. The one time we see aliens around is when Vader hires some bounty hunters and right away they are denounced as "scum" by the Officer in charge, when Vader isn't looking of course.

The movies go out of their way to show us armies of white human males in the Empire, and mixed groups of women, minorities and aliens in the Republic/Rebel Alliance. We could say the movies are also propaganda, but what does that do to canon? What would we compare it to?

It just seems, and this is entirely my opinion, that the writers of the EU decided that because the Empire was the badguys that they had to do everything else bad as well. And as aforementioned, droids work better than slave labor.

Yes, it's the old "moustache twirler" thing. By the same token we could say where do we see evidence that they aren't these things? And if G-Level canon doesn't contradict the EU (C-Level) aren't we supposed to accept them? The bad guys do plenty of other stereotypical evil villian things like wearing black, laughing maniacly, desire for power, love of killing, embrace torture and violence, etc.

All that without trying to argue author's intent (Lucas comparing the Empire to the Nazis, etc).


Yes, the Empire could be racist without having slaves. They could also have slaves without being racist. The question is, will Lucas "revise" the Wookiee's slave history with ROTS or not? How will it be impacted? Without reading the spoilers, I can't answer it definitively, just speculating...