Is The Pope A False Idol?

[Aaron]

I've heard lots of fundies especially here, claim that the Pope is a false idol and that Catholics are all going to hell for worshipping the Pope. Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Pope considered Gods represenitive on Earth? And they merely seek his guidance?

So can anyone here shed any light on why the fundies consdier the Pope a false idol?

[Alex Moon]

I've heard lots of fundies especially here, claim that the Pope is a false idol and that Catholics are all going to hell for worshipping the Pope. Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Pope considered Gods represenitive on Earth? And they merely seek his guidance?

So can anyone here shed any light on why the fundies consdier the Pope a false idol?

Fundies usually deliberately misrepresent the Pope's status. He's the direct successor of Peter, and thus seen as head of the church.

[Aaron]

Fundies usually deliberately misrepresent the Pope's status. He's the direct successor of Peter, and thus seen as head of the church.

Thats another thing. I've been told that the church isn't actually the RCC but all the followers of Christ. And the organised Churchs are obstructions on the path to god placed there by satan!

[Mr. Coffee]

I think some of it has to do with the Catholic Church's stance on the OT being allegorical in nature, which conflicts with the typical fundie belief that the entirity of the bible is hard historical fact. I'd wager a signifigant amount of my next paycheck that most of the fundies that believe the Pope is a false idol or other such non-sense also believe in YEC (not to derail the thread, but am I the only one that mentally pronounces "Y.E.C." as "yeech" the pukey noise).

[Aaron]

I think some of it has to do with the Catholic Church's stance on the OT being allegorical in nature, which conflicts with the typical fundie belief that the entirity of the bible is hard historical fact. I'd wager a signifigant amount of my next paycheck that most of the fundies that believe the Pope is a false idol or other such non-sense also believe in YEC (not to derail the thread, but am I the only one that mentally pronounces "Y.E.C." as "yeech" the pukey noise).

No I've noticed that that tends to be the case as well.

[Mr. Coffee]

Another thought after having looked at the link you provided, Cpl Kendall.

The Catholic Church from what I understand only allows discussion and interpretation of the Book of Revelations by trained theologians, and much like the OT, they tend to look on it from an allegorical stand point and not as prophecy. Most fundies seem to think Revelations as being literal and that we are in the "end times" described in it. Not to get off on a tanget, but that is something that makes Catholicism appeal more to me than all of the fundie faiths. That whole "end times" stuff is a massive downer.

[Aaron]

Another thought after having looked at the link you provided, Cpl Kendall.

The Catholic Church from what I understand only allows discussion and interpretation of the Book of Revelations by trained theologians, and much like the OT, they tend to look on it from an allegorical stand point and not as prophecy. Most fundies seem to think Revelations as being literal and that we are in the "end times" described in it. Not to get off on a tanget, but that is something that makes Catholicism appeal more to me than all of the fundie faiths. That whole "end times" stuff is a massive downer.

I have to agree. I don't particularly enjoy thinking that the world is going to end within my lifetime. Although I don't see these "signs" the fundies claim to see. ALthough I suppose if you look hard enough for something you will find it.

[Pick]

I'd say no, since the Pope supposedly merely speaks as a proxy, and Catholics understand this.

It'd be like calling a telephone the same as the person on the other end.

[Aaron]

I'd say no, since the Pope supposedly merely speaks as a proxy, and Catholics understand this.

It'd be like calling a telephone the same as the person on the other end.

Yes apperently he can only speak as God's rep when he does things a certain way wearing a certain hat and wahtnot, so it's not like everytime he speaks he's speaking for God.

[Pick]

I'd say no, since the Pope supposedly merely speaks as a proxy, and Catholics understand this.

It'd be like calling a telephone the same as the person on the other end.

Yes apperently he can only speak as God's rep when he does things a certain way wearing a certain hat and wahtnot, so it's not like everytime he speaks he's speaking for God.

Yes, that is true (or the chair blah blah) but it is those moments he is the closest to being 'worshipped' in any way that non-Catholics might find particularly unusual. At least that's been my perspective.

[Aaron]

Yes, that is true (or the chair blah blah) but it is those moments he is the closest to being 'worshipped' in any way that non-Catholics might find particularly unusual. At least that's been my perspective.

Hasn't that only happened twice since the death of Christ? If so there's not a whole lot of historical precedence for it here. Basically fundie concerns are unfounded.

[Rogue 9]

I've heard lots of fundies especially here, claim that the Pope is a false idol and that Catholics are all going to hell for worshipping the Pope. Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Pope considered Gods represenitive on Earth? And they merely seek his guidance?

So can anyone here shed any light on why the fundies consdier the Pope a false idol?

The Pope is not worshiped as a god, so the short answer is no. The long answer is no, but a lot of fundie denominations have an agenda against the Catholic church, some out of pure spite left over from when they splintered with some other Catholic-hating group and some out of a desire to gain Catholic converts.

[Superman]

It's Dulia and Latria. Bowing to the Pope is like a knight bowing to a kind. He is not worshipping him as the creator.

Of course Protestants constantly make straw man arguments against the Catholics. That's why they're protestants and not Catholics.

[Superman]

Errr bowing to a KING, not a kind. Sorry.

Also, I would say that fundies are literally worshipping the Bible as a false idol. Think about that for a minute.

[Nick Lancaster]

As has been pointed out, I think the fundies are upset the Pope wasn't selling group tours on the Rapture Bus.

The problem with the Rapture Bus is that it runs against Christ's message of salvation and establishes the haves and haves not, the saved and the damned. Christ says such winnowing will come, but doesn't mention any special bennies for the Rapture crowd.

Saved has become synonymous with 'special treatment'. The focus is not on the wondrous gift and Christ's sacrifice, but on 'I'm saved, you're going to hell.' In my opinion, salvation built on the damnation of others is fundamentally unsound.

Frankly, and this question usually gets a, 'that's not gonna happen, so your question is meaningless' from the fundies ... what would you do if you're standing before God Almighty, and he points to the person you hated the most while on Earth and says, "I'll let them in if you forgive them."

That's right, they can't even grok forgiveness.

[atkindave]

I'm sure that no informed Christian actually believes that anyone worships the Pope. Some of the fundies derided here may not be so informed, however. What most Protestants have their biggest problem with is the worship (Catholics call it veneration) of saints to intercede on their behalf. Such behavior is specifically prohibited in the bible, which Protestants believe to be in authority over any later tradition. (the Catholic church was around for and was indeed responsible for turning early Christian literature into canon, so their point of view may be different). There are other points as well, but most are too deep theologically to go into here, there are books on the subject if you're interested.

[Mr. Coffee]

What most Protestants have their biggest problem with is the worship (Catholics call it veneration) of saints to intercede on their behalf.

How is it that you go translate veneration as worship? All a Saint does is act as a go-between in a specific area between the person offering the prayer and God. It's the same as asking a buddy of your that works for a company you'd like to be hired at to put a good word in for you with the boss.

[atkindave]

Praying to an entity, asking for favors, and giving thanks to that entity is the same as worship. Catholics basically treat canonized saints as lesser gods, even though they are just dead Christians. I'll be a dead Christian someday too. Would you like to pray to me?

[Superman]

Praying to an entity, asking for favors, and giving thanks to that entity is the same as worship. Catholics basically treat canonized saints as lesser gods, even though they are just dead Christians. I'll be a dead Christian someday too. Would you like to pray to me?

Your "false dilemna" fallacy doesn't stand up. The fact is that early Jews prayed to and with the dead, some still pray to Moses, and the early Christians carried on this tradition. That is why Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc., still do this.

It's not the same as worship.

[Superman]

I am so tired of this fundie strawman, btw...

[atkindave]

Your "false dilemna" fallacy doesn't stand up. The fact is that early Jews prayed to and with the dead, some still pray to Moses, and the early Christians carried on this tradition. That is why Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc., still do this.

It's not the same as worship.

Show how it is different then, other than by scale. Your appeal to the populace doesn't work either.

Maybe it's my point of view. As a Protestant Christian, I see Catholics as wrong about this and other theological issues.

[Superman]

Here you are. From catholic.com

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’"

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8)." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

[Mr. Coffee]

Praying to an entity, asking for favors, and giving thanks to that entity is the same as worship. Catholics basically treat canonized saints as lesser gods, even though they are just dead Christians.

Catholics do not ask saints for anything other than to pass their prayers on to God. They do not worship them, they only ask the appropriate saint to hand deliver a prayer to God dealing with whatever that saint happens to have patronage over.

I'll be a dead Christian someday too. Would you like to pray to me?

Differnence between you and a Saint is this, you've never performed any miracles. You're just another ignorant person talking out his ass about Catholicism. Next time why don't you go ask a Catholic about the in and outs of their faith before you make any judgements about it.

[Superman]

Most protestants I've met don't actively accuse Catholics of worshipping idols, however, fundies do.

Again, if there's any idolotry going on, it's the way fundies say that the Bible is an infallible book of history, science, religion,. etc. There attribute god like attributes to their book.

[atkindave]

Here you are. From catholic.com <snip>

Thank you, quite enlightening. It is exactly what I didn't ask for. So why do Catholics pray to saints, ask them favors, and give thanks then? Semantics aside, it still smells like worship to me.

I "honor" them as much as the next (Christian) guy, but I don't think asking them for intercession will get the job done any better then asking God myself. Most canonized saints were good Christians, and many martyred. Their stories are important to our history just like the stories of Washington, Lincoln, Carver, and Roosevelt (either of them) are important to American history.