There's no such thing as luck

[Stravo]

Obi Wan Kenobi says it in ANH when Luke deflects the probe's stunner bolts. Han says "I call it luck." Obi Wan replies "In my experience there's no such thing as luck." Obi Wan even states it further when he tells Luke that sometimes the Force even controls your actions.

There have been some thoughts surrounding this idea of luck and the will of the Force. Some think that TPM shows that luck does not exist and that everything that happens is the will of the Force, Anakin's 'lucky' shot that takes out the Trade Fed battleship was not so much lucky as it was his unconcious use of the Force. His skill in podracing is not based on luck but a combination of precog and Jedi like reaction time. Qui Gon and the crew of the Queen's ship must set down on Tatooine and just happen to set down in walking distance of the potential strongest Force user in the galaxy. Anakin happens to stumble upon all the controls he needs to both fly the Nubian fighter and take out the Droidekas. TPM for all its awfulness is rife with this idea that the Force is guiding everyone's actions in this film, leading to the discovery of Anakin and Anakin's tutelage under Obi Wan. After all how can it not be the will of the Force that a Sith lord that can defeat one of the greatest duelist in the Jedi order is struck down by a padawan?

This idea find itself less in the OT but there are still examples. Luke's shot that takes out the Deathstar is not lucky, it is guided by the Force. Luke happens to go away when the Imperial troops arrive to his homestead. Luke happens to fall in a place that Han Solo will stumble across in near zero visibility on Hoth. Leia just happens to be found by an Ewok in time to help make peace with them? These are all aspects of the will of the Force if you believe in the hypothesis.

This leads to a startling question in terms of the Jedi.

Were the Jedi betrayed by the Force? The Jedi by the time of the prequels were growing arrogant and political. Jedi Masters did not ascend to the council based on skill alone anymore, now it was who would rock the boat and who would play the game as evidenced by Qui Gon's failure to sit on the council. The Jedi were taking children away from the parents and raising a race of warrior monks that did not procreate and pass on the Force using abilities to their offspring. The Jedi were no longer truly doing the will of the Force. They had become so pervasive and powerful that the Galaxy no longer looked to itself for defense and peace keeping. The Force was out of balance and the Force needed to act.

When Anakin was born it set in motion a series of events that led to the fall of the Republic, the Purge of the Jedi and the generation long Empire of Evil and Oppression. The Force betrayed the Emperor as well when Anakin Skywalker betrayed him as he did the Jedi a generation earlier and flung him to his death (DE not withstanding)

And to a lesser extent we have to wonder if Jedi duels are also resolved not through skill but through the will of the Force. Let's look at some examples:

Obi Wan defeats Darth Maul - an outclassed padawan versus a fully trained and angry Sith Lord. Yet by his victory the Sith are left with a power vacuum that Anakin will eventually fill, but Obi Wan will train him first allowing Anakin to gain the skills he needs to ascend to his fated role as Sith lord.

Dooku defeats Anakin and Obi Wan. In this match up Obi Wan is relatively certain that together they can take Dooku. Yet Dooku handily defeats both of them, mauls Anakin and they are only saved by the timely appearance of Yoda. Timely or driven by the Force one must wonder since Yoda is the only master or Jedi that feels what is happening on a world full of Jedi close to the duel. Once again the will of the Force can be expressed by Anakin's loss fueling his desire for more power.

Obi Wan defeats Anakin. We know that Obi Wan defeats Anakin but not the details (and spoilers are NOT fucking welcome) Yet how can it not be the will of the Force that Anakin lose and become Darth Vader completely, trapped as he is in his state of near death, crippled and hobbled as penance for his actions and a fuel to further his rage. By all rights Anakin should have taken the fight, for he is far more powerful and his skill with the lightsaber supposedly rivals Yoda's. (AOTC) yet it is Obi Wan that carries the day.

Luke defeats Anakin. Are we expected to believe that Luke has grown so much more skillful in less than a year between his utter defeat on Bespin and his duel on Endor that he could defeat a Sith with a generation of experience and skill to back him up? In a similar situation it is Obi Wan's supposed experience and skill that carries the day against the more powerful Anakin. (GL interview) Yet in this duel experience and skill mean nothing when it is Luke's turn to shine. It is the will of the Force that flows through the young Jedi and places Aankin precisely where he needs to be to make his decision and bring balance to the Force.

So if we are to accept that there are no coincidences according to the themes in TPM and Obi Wan's statement in ANH can the entire story of Star Wars be expressed as the Will of the Force being played out? Or do you think that there is such a thing as luck and Obi Wan was over stating his case? And if it is all the Will of the Force is there free will in the Star Wars galaxy?

[Lord Revan]

I think there's free will and the "Will of the Force" similar to the "will/word of God" (in the way fundies use it). In the Novelization Kenobi gives quite good defination of luck as "but there's", after that line.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Stravo, firstly, I am honoured to be the first to reply to your essay, second off, let me say with those examples, you made things that, at the time, reaked of bad thinking, or cockups on the part of the movie writers, and turned them into actual believable actions that make perfect sense now... Besides, with it we can say there IS Luck in the StarWars Universe.. It’s just non Jedis tapping into the Force for a bit

It all may SOUND like a bit of a Deus Ex "Well, It was the Will of the Force" but.. it helps to explain so MUCH!

[Crazedwraith]

Dooku defeats Anakin and Obi Wan. In this match up Obi Wan is relatively certain that together they can take Dooku. Yet Dooku handily defeats both of them, mauls Anakin and they are only saved by the timely appearance of Yoda. Timely or driven by the Force one must wonder since Yoda is the only master or Jedi that feels what is happening on a world full of Jedi close to the duel. Once again the will of the Force can be expressed by Anakin's loss fueling his desire for more power.

The Key word there is together. Together they could take him but they didn't fight together did they? Ankain cheagred him got zapped. Kenobi jumped in and then sat down and cried becuase he grazed himself then Anakin jumps in and ends up like a kid who sticks his hand out the schol bus window. At no point did they work together.


Also does this whole 'destiny; crap and 'will of the force' crap shit all over 'always in motion is the future'?

[Vympel]

Obi Wan defeats Anakin. We know that Obi Wan defeats Anakin but not the details (and spoilers are NOT fucking welcome) Yet how can it not be the will of the Force that Anakin lose and become Darth Vader completely, trapped as he is in his state of near death, crippled and hobbled as penance for his actions and a fuel to further his rage. By all rights Anakin should have taken the fight, for he is far more powerful and his skill with the lightsaber supposedly rivals Yoda's. (AOTC) yet it is Obi Wan that carries the day.

That was Anakin's arrogant conceit (or a joke)- notice Obi-Wan's rejoinder "only in you mind, my very young apprentice". Remember that Count Dooku maimed Anakin in mere moments. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda lasted longer than that.

As for Anakin's fate being the "will of the Force"- who knows, it probably was. They don't even know what 'balance to the Force' actually means. Given that there are 10,000 Jedi and only 2 Sith, you'd think maybe they'd consider the possibility that some 9,998 Jedi are in need of killing.

[Stravo]

Dooku defeats Anakin and Obi Wan. In this match up Obi Wan is relatively certain that together they can take Dooku. Yet Dooku handily defeats both of them, mauls Anakin and they are only saved by the timely appearance of Yoda. Timely or driven by the Force one must wonder since Yoda is the only master or Jedi that feels what is happening on a world full of Jedi close to the duel. Once again the will of the Force can be expressed by Anakin's loss fueling his desire for more power.

The Key word there is together. Together they could take him but they didn't fight together did they? Ankain cheagred him got zapped. Kenobi jumped in and then sat down and cried becuase he grazed himself then Anakin jumps in and ends up like a kid who sticks his hand out the schol bus window. At no point did they work together.


Also does this whole 'destiny; crap and 'will of the force' crap shit all over 'always in motion is the future'?

Not if you take into account that the Force shows you only what it wants you to know.

"Look a city in the clouds with your friends in danger" Whoops snipped that part out when they escape on their own.

"All if proceeding as I have foreseen" Except for that part where Vader flings you over the railing and you die (DE excepted of course)

[Crossroads Inc.]

"Look a city in the clouds with your friends in danger" Whoops snipped that part out when they escape on their own.

The nice thing about the Force being 'Selective' in what it shows, is that it works even more. If Luke hadn't have gone to Bespin, he would have never confronted Vader the first time and commited himself to becoming a Jedi.

[Lord Revan]

Funny thing about balance is something similar happen in the KOTOR era (one of the Jedi Masters in KOTOR2 says to the Exile that Jedi council was too Arrogant to "Take responsiblity for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic (Qel-Droma), for Malak" and in most of the Jedi were either inm the Mandalorian wars or in the Jedi civil war (AKA the Sith war(against (Revan and) Malak). the exile who lost his/her (the exile is the PC) connection with the Force is belived to be the Last Jedi.

[Lagmonster]

I believe that the Force is being portrayed more and more as a sentient entity in its own right.

Going by the most recent plot of knights of the old republic 2, the idea that an individual can 'wound' the Force by cutting himself off from it is prevalent, with suggestions that the Force can be treated as though it were a giant psychic consciousness. Indeed the entire plot of both games suggest that the Force does things on purpose and that, as well, individuals can rebel against that will and fight back against it.

What that will is, I have no idea; I'm no philosopher. I have assumed that it's the combined will of most life in the universe, but that's a very vague and unhelpful definition.

[Trytostaydead]

Well, for one, I'm firmly convinced that Palpatine was betrayed by the Force, his vision of how ROTJ should've ended with Luke coming to his side did not come to pass as he saw it. Secondly, Luke had his vision of Mara dead, but it was just part of the future and incomplete. Enough to spur him into action.

Either way though, there is a definite feeling that at least with major events, the Force already firmly controls the future. While Yoda says the future is always in motion and difficult to predict, it seems apparent the Force gives glimpses that DO come to pass, but people may interpert it differently, which is probably what the Force intends at any rate, such as Palpatine's vision.

I don't think the Jedi were "betrayed" by the Force. I think the Force was resetting the balance. Anakin does go over to the darkside to do this, as there are only two Siths and numerous Jedis, the Jedi are wiped out by Anakin. But as an instrument of the will of the Force, Anakin is redeemed at the end by his son AND destroys the last of the Sith, so in the end, it is ultimately the Jedi that are the victors.

[darthnidankendo]

i fully agree with your essay. very well done. To me luck is for the weak.

[PainRack]

Is this game for utter and totally unsupported, unbacked speculation? Yipee!!!!!


My answer. YES!!!

There are 2, maybe 3 prophecies of the Force that the SWU revolves around. The Chosen One, the Sons of Suns and the totally non canonical Skywalker shall rule the Force thingy.

If we view the Force as a single entity, similar to the Gaia concept for Mother Earth, then the "balance" can be easily understood as a balance between light and dark, good and evil and most important of all, creation vs destruction. The cycle of life always revolve around life and death, creation and destruction. We can only propgate life through death, when we eat,consume something else and through death do we give renewed life, when we yield up ourselves to the environ.

The Jedi were ultimately "unbalancing" the Force, fulfilling the "Light" unbalance. Ignoring the new age concepts and reverting to more ancient philosophies, the ideas of humours, fluids, life forces, yin and yang comes to mind. Any of these ideas easily point out the danger of having too much "life" in a system, in that it tends to overheat the system. Medicinal philosophy believed that overproduction of the humour for life in the liver(or was it bile?), yang and etc results in fever, hypertension, body aches and any number of illness. The Journal of Whillis echoes this idea when it mentions that the Old Republic had grown too rich and powerful, thus attracting the greedy and corrupt. When one matches the fact that the Jedi are the "guardians" of the Republic, the resultant wealth and prosperity of the Republic, as well as its security is a result of their guardianship, thus resulting in its subsequent decline. The inability of the Republic Senate to rule decisively may also be attributed to the coddling of the Republic by the Jedi. Any crisis? Send in the Jedi. Any diplomatic issue? Send in the Jedi.
Perhaps that is why Yoda mentions,"help them you could, but destroy everything they have worked for(etc.........etc)"

As such, through an upheaval in death and destruction, the Force acts its will by attempting to rejuvenate the galaxy, similar to how the idea of universal destruction by Shiva or even the biblical Flood was meant to wipe the slate clean for a fresh start.(it even carries its own rainbow, the Sons of Suns prophecy). However, Palpatine himself represented a stumbling block to the concurrent evolution of the Force as well as the galaxy, what with his grandoise plans mentioned in DE. Therefore, its off he go.

In that context, I believe the reason why Luke was so important was because of the Sons of Suns prophecy. This suggests that Luke is the Destiny of the Force itself. Palpatine wanted, desperately needed to counteract that prophecy because its fulfillment will utlimately end his plans for supremacy. Such a supremacy will result in a "block" of the Force just as much as the Jedi did, and "insert 1984 philosophy in" is anaethema to the Force as much as the Jedi stagnant guardianship was. Stillness leads to stagnance, and it is not the Force way, and similarly, rage of action only leads to sterility. By either killing Luke so that the dual sons of suns(luke and vader together) could not fulfill the prophecy and destroy him or even better, converting Luke to the Dark Side under him, so that he can control the destiny and future of the Force was Palpatine plans, and his subsequent actions from TESB onwards at least.

The story as well as EU also suggests something. Luke is the minor portion of the prophecy, and is the catalyst for action, as opposed to the action itself. He is the one who activates the Chosen one, and if Ben Skywalker is so important in the future post NJO, it is because of Luke teachings. Same for the NJO climax from Jaina, Jacen and Anakin to him killing the "false" Supreme Overlord.

[Captain Cyran]

I agree with your statements Stravo, I've believed for awhile now that basically the Force (Which, is very similar to a God-like being) realized that the Jedi and the Sith were both screwing up. So it decided to wipe the slate clean.

[White Haven]

Hmm....but KOTOR 2's references to the True Sith empire floating around would seem to contest the balance issue. The Sith empire is referred to as being extremely powerful (and Dark Side), and yet if we accept that the Force is guiding events, the Jedi are being hunted to near-extinction. At the end of KOTOR 2, the Jedi left alive and active in the Republic are...aaah...the Exile, who promptly leaves, and a few of the party members, one of whom also leaves with the Exile if you look at the scripts for the proper ending. Maybe a few scattered Jedi elsewhere, but not many after the pogrom. And that's if you go light-side. Now, the Jedi of the time were not anything I would feel comfortable calling moral, but Balance in the Force would seem to refer to Light/Dark, not anything as human-centric as good/evil.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

Obi Wan defeats Anakin. We know that Obi Wan defeats Anakin but not the details (and spoilers are NOT fucking welcome) Yet how can it not be the will of the Force that Anakin lose and become Darth Vader completely, trapped as he is in his state of near death, crippled and hobbled as penance for his actions and a fuel to further his rage. By all rights Anakin should have taken the fight, for he is far more powerful and his skill with the lightsaber supposedly rivals Yoda's. (AOTC) yet it is Obi Wan that carries the day.

That was Anakin's arrogant conceit (or a joke)- notice Obi-Wan's rejoinder "only in you mind, my very young apprentice". Remember that Count Dooku maimed Anakin in mere moments. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda lasted longer than that.

From what I saw of the Duel, Obi Wan lasted the least amount of time between the three. Plus he was clearly struggling in fighting Dooku.

[Stravo]

Obi Wan defeats Anakin. We know that Obi Wan defeats Anakin but not the details (and spoilers are NOT fucking welcome) Yet how can it not be the will of the Force that Anakin lose and become Darth Vader completely, trapped as he is in his state of near death, crippled and hobbled as penance for his actions and a fuel to further his rage. By all rights Anakin should have taken the fight, for he is far more powerful and his skill with the lightsaber supposedly rivals Yoda's. (AOTC) yet it is Obi Wan that carries the day.

That was Anakin's arrogant conceit (or a joke)- notice Obi-Wan's rejoinder "only in you mind, my very young apprentice". Remember that Count Dooku maimed Anakin in mere moments. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda lasted longer than that.

From what I saw of the Duel, Obi Wan lasted the least amount of time between the three. Plus he was clearly struggling in fighting Dooku.

After Dooku beats Anakin he actually looks physically exhausted for a minute, slumping his shoulders and taking a deep breath. He taunted and didn't bat an eye in handing Obi Wan his ass.

[Kurgan]

That was Anakin's arrogant conceit (or a joke)- notice Obi-Wan's rejoinder "only in you mind, my very young apprentice". Remember that Count Dooku maimed Anakin in mere moments. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda lasted longer than that.

From what I saw of the Duel, Obi Wan lasted the least amount of time between the three. Plus he was clearly struggling in fighting Dooku.

After Dooku beats Anakin he actually looks physically exhausted for a minute, slumping his shoulders and taking a deep breath. He taunted and didn't bat an eye in handing Obi Wan his ass.

I always interpreted his "tiredness" in that scene with a sense of frustration and fear, that he had to wound Anakin (his master's prize) and almost kill him. Dooku planned to kill Obi-Wan, but he spared Anakin, twice (taking him out of the fight rather than finishing him off).

He was incredibly arrogant and delighted to be fighting Yoda a minute later after taking out those two young punks.

[Civil War Man]

Reminds me of a statement I made about the Force balancing prophecy. There are a lot of light Jedi. There are very few (most thought no) dark Jedi. In order for there to be balance, there either needs to be more dark Jedi or less light Jedi. Hmmm...

[Stravo]

I always interpreted his "tiredness" in that scene with a sense of frustration and fear, that he had to wound Anakin (his master's prize) and almost kill him. Dooku planned to kill Obi-Wan, but he spared Anakin, twice (taking him out of the fight rather than finishing him off).

He was incredibly arrogant and delighted to be fighting Yoda a minute later after taking out those two young punks.

See I have an issue with Dooku knowing that Anakin was the Emperor's prize. I think Palpy would not have told him so and there certainly is no evidence that Dooku was aware that Anakin was on Palpy's shortlist. In fact Dooku makes no attempt to turn Anakin but does for Obi Wan.

[Captain Cyran]

Reminds me of a statement I made about the Force balancing prophecy. There are a lot of light Jedi. There are very few (most thought no) dark Jedi. In order for there to be balance, there either needs to be more dark Jedi or less light Jedi. Hmmm...

But things were not balanced until both Vader and Palpatine had died. The balance was basically "We're wiping the slate clean and starting over."

[Kurgan]

I always interpreted his "tiredness" in that scene with a sense of frustration and fear, that he had to wound Anakin (his master's prize) and almost kill him. Dooku planned to kill Obi-Wan, but he spared Anakin, twice (taking him out of the fight rather than finishing him off).

He was incredibly arrogant and delighted to be fighting Yoda a minute later after taking out those two young punks.

See I have an issue with Dooku knowing that Anakin was the Emperor's prize. I think Palpy would not have told him so and there certainly is no evidence that Dooku was aware that Anakin was on Palpy's shortlist. In fact Dooku makes no attempt to turn Anakin but does for Obi Wan.

Disagree with it if you want to, perhaps it'll be utterly destroyed by ROTS but until then it's my pet hunch, and it's what I felt when I first saw it in the theater. I could imagine Palpatine going after Anakin and Dooku going after Obi-Wan. Dooku wouldn't dare destroy his master's prize.

We the audience know that Palpatine has been "watching [Anakin's] career with great interest" and courting him in AOTC. Does anyone else know? In the ROTS trailer it's implied that the Jedi know and are fearful of it.

I figure it's something Palpy wouldn't be able to hide from Dooku, but then again maybe I'm wrong. It just seems like the kind of thing in the Sith's scheming nature that would make sense. Dooku need not try to turn him directly, merely taunt him a bit to bring out his animal instinct.

[Vympel]

See I have an issue with Dooku knowing that Anakin was the Emperor's prize. I think Palpy would not have told him so and there certainly is no evidence that Dooku was aware that Anakin was on Palpy's shortlist. In fact Dooku makes no attempt to turn Anakin but does for Obi Wan.

It's in the novelization for RotS. Dooku knew. He preferred Obi-Wan, but Palpatine thought him too old.

[Slartibartfast]

"In my experience" means "because I'm a Jedi." Since Han is not a Jedi or force user, then whatever happens to him or not can be attributed to luck, since the Force has trouble guiding people who aren't Force-sensitive.

But since in the SW universe, non-Force users are puny, any luck they might or might not have is easily steamrolled over by some Force-user's actions.

[Cal Wright]

I am going to attrociously shrink your wonderful essay into a more manageable response.

I know I've talked about this long before I even knew of sd.net, but I also believe we have talked about this before. TPM was not so much a train wreck disaster as many people make it out to be. I feel that while the universe was guided, and has been guided by the Force, it's also run it's course. If you take the Force=God analogy, then the 'Force' intervenes only when necessary. The Force creates the 'pillar of flames' when the time is right. So I am in full agreeance with your stance. I do believe the story of the Skywalker family is in accordance to the the will of the Force.

[Stark]

Bah, who *cares* what KOTOR says. Well done, Stravo.

It's a shame GL isn't any good: he could have made many scenes (particularly in TPM) much more powerful by appreciating the predestined (or rather, determined) nature of much of the action.