Which would you prefer to use in combat?

[The Original Nex]

For those of you interested, my numbers so far have come from the unaltered trilogy. As you should know there are some changes with ANH SE. The only one of significance is that the max number of Rebel ships shown on screen is 30, 22 X-Wings, 8 Y-Wings. TIE counts remain the same. The screen results give us the same 2-1 favor to the X-Wing, but this time with 16 X-Wings unaccounted for, and 4 Y-Wings unaccounted for.

Fine my count for the Rebs stays at 30 with the breakdowns shifting to 22 Xs and 8 Ys. Doesn't change anything else.

EDIT: After quickly going throught the ROTJ DVD I found another kill, an A-Wing popping a TIE Interceptor, causing it to slam into a star destroyer. That puts the A-Wing at 2-1, the TIE Interceptor at 1-6.

Again, you're thinking that you can simply tally the kills seen onscreen as an accurate representation of the whole battle.

[tharkûn]

Again, you're thinking that you can simply tally the kills seen onscreen as an accurate representation of the whole battle.

An accurate representation of the whole battle would take into account that it wasn't a fair dogfight. At any given time a significant percentage of the rebel force won't be able to engage in dogfighting - they will be running the trench to complete the mission. Likewise the defenses on the death star, even if they didn't make a single offscreen kill, have a significant impact on the options rebel pilots have in a dogfight. Even if you can evade the guns, you can't for instance pull a tight prolonged turn directly in front of a gun emplacement. The mere process of evading surface armaments is going to handicap your ability to fight.

The Imperials merely had to avoid getting killed by fighters intent on another objective; the rebels had to dodge enemy fighters, enemy guns, and finish a mission ... all while working against the clock.

Personally I'd go with the A-wing. I've read it is fast, hyperdrive equipped, and sheilded. Looking over previous dogfighting doctrines; the essential points seem to be speed, first strike capabilities, and rougedness to take some damage. The A-wing appears to be superior in most regards. In a straight up fight you can use missiles at long ranges to off enemy fighters - first strike goes to the A-wing. Speed appears to be a toss up. Rougedness, the TIEs appear to be less rugged. The ace in the hole is the ability to pack up and run like hell through hyperspace when you face certain defeat.

As far as X-wing vs TIE. If both sides are otherwise equal, you have to expect to be on the short end of the stick sometimes - not every engagement is going to be identical numbers and when I'm at a serious disadvantage I'd far rather have the option of running like hell to hyperspace. Likewise missiles give me a bit of room to punch above my weight class; conversely if a TIE encounters something a little bit up the food chain, like the Falcon, they tend to die. Looking solely at the X-wing or the TIE, I'd take the X-wing.

[Darth Yoshi]

The TIE/I cannons are better placed, I think.

But I still prefer the X-wing.

[Wicked Pilot]

I assumed that there's no reason to believe only half a squadron would be launched. I believe it's be stated in the literature that only Vader's personal squadron was launched in the battle.

Fine, there were 10 TIEs dogfighting.

Speculation with no canon evidence.

Again, you're ignoring the thirty Rebel ships quote. And assuming that only half a TIE Squadron was launched, which is just plain illogical.

How many are in that squadron? How many of that particular squadron are mission capable at any given time? Again, speculation with no canon evidence.

Why call it Gold SQUADRON if there are only 4 ships?

See above.

So? It managed to survive the dogfighting, but the TIEs held it up so it never was able to make the trench run.

Or maybe it was optimal to only bring in three at a time. That's what the first X-Wing group did even though more than four were available. Those of us who in real life fly formation in tactical environments know the difficulties of leading multiple ships, and how those difficulties increase dramatically with every addition. Contrary to popular belief, flying on the wing is far far more easier than flying lead once you've mastered the monkey skills required to stay in position.

so the other 23 were destroyed by other means, and since the Rebels were said to "be able to evade our turbolasers," it suggests that a small force of 10 TIEs (exculding Vader and his wingmen) was able to take out, at the most, 22 Rebel Fighters. Makes the TIEs look superior to me. . .

The six shown on screen might have been only the tip of the iceberg, there could have been 60 total. We don't know the number, only a lower limit.

Once again, speculation without any canon evidence.

My speculation is more feasable that you disregarding anything that may have happened offscreen.

Again, you're thinking that you can simply tally the kills seen onscreen as an accurate representation of the whole battle.

Your speculation is not evidence. Why do you have such a hard time comprehending this? I'm not suggesting my numbers are all inclusive, but they paint a clear picture of Rebel superiority over two battles in two films. EU paints a similiar picture.

Speaking of which, are you going to say anything about Endor, or are you just going to continue to ignore it?

[Kurgan]

You sound like Darkstar

That is fucking low, dude.

But Darkstar would never use the term "G-Level canon" would he? He'd say "unless Lucas himself says" or something like that. Using the term would imply he accepts the "new canon" which would mean he'd be accepting the EU. Rather he tends to say basically 'if Lucas didn't say it, it's crap (non-canon).'

[The Original Nex]

An accurate representation of the whole battle would take into account that it wasn't a fair dogfight. At any given time a significant percentage of the rebel force won't be able to engage in dogfighting - they will be running the trench to complete the mission.

The Rebel Fighters outnumbered the Imperial ones at Yavin.

I was referring to the Rebel ships that were dogfighting, and were not focusing on the trench runs.

Likewise the defenses on the death star, even if they didn't make a single offscreen kill, have a significant impact on the options rebel pilots have in a dogfight. Even if you can evade the guns, you can't for instance pull a tight prolonged turn directly in front of a gun emplacement. The mere process of evading surface armaments is going to handicap your ability to fight.

The Death Star surface guns ceased fire when TIEs were in use. They weren't a major factor in the dogfights.

[The Original Nex]

Your speculation is not evidence. Why do you have such a hard time comprehending this? I'm not suggesting my numbers are all inclusive, but they paint a clear picture of Rebel superiority over two battles in two films. EU paints a similiar picture.

While speculation is not conclusive, niether are the tiny snippets of battle seen in the films. So no, there is no clear picture of Rebel superiority.

EU is almost ALWAYS biased in favor of the Rebels/New Republic. Is that not generally accepted?

Speaking of which, are you going to say anything about Endor, or are you just going to continue to ignore it?

I believe I did address that. . .

With the hundreds, if not thousands, of fighters present at Endor, an accurate analysis of Rebel/Imperial fighter superiority is not possible unless we had footage of the entire battle and every engagement. 5 second snippits don't tell us shit about the dogfighting on a whole.

[Wicked Pilot]

Do you have anything to offer or not?

[tharkûn]

The Rebel Fighters outnumbered the Imperial ones at Yavin.

You know this how? You are ignoring the surface guns, the all important mission that must be finished before they light up the moon, and the need to fly in tight formation ... why?

I was referring to the Rebel ships that were dogfighting, and were not focusing on the trench runs.

Irrelevent. The dogfighting ships aren't there for the purpose of killing TIEs, they are there to allow the trench runs to have a prayer of succeeding. To whit the other rebel fighters goal is to protect the trench runners as best as possible, to do this they may well take actions which don't further their own kill ratios.

The Death Star surface guns ceased fire when TIEs were in use. They weren't a major factor in the dogfights.

The fact that they stopped firing is irrelevent. Imagine you manage to pull behind a TIE in your X-wing and blow the utter living crap out fo the TIE right in front of you. Suddenly the gun directly behind you opens fire at point blank range and your ass is grass. Why did this happen? Because the TIE fighter knew he had an advantage - he gets to ignore friendly guns, you don't. If you kill him in front of the guns, you destroy any reason for the gunners not to open fire. He expects you to understand that just because the gunners aren't firing doesn't mean they can't and that any sensible pilot will assume they might start firing again, particularly if no friendlies are in the field of fire. Thus the TIE pilot has OPTIONS that the X-wing pilot doesn't. If he picks up a six o'clock tail he can fly dead in front of the guns and be relatively safe.

Through the entire deathstar battle the TIEs had the upper hand. They don't have to hit a quite small target at high speeds under tight tactical formation. They didn't have to worry about surface guns targetting them. They didn't have a giant frikking ticking clock requiring them to take ever increasingly chancy risks in order to complete their mission.

I'm sorry but the Death Star was not a fair dogfight. It was a bombing run with escorts and bloody friggen huge mission constraints.

[Hellfire]

Definently the X-Wing. Its got shields, hyperdrive, decent maneuverability, an R-2 unit.