Petrosjko Wrote: [Snip]
Thank you. The questions you and mr friendly guy wrote were legit and pushed me to examine my position more closely.
Have a good rest.
THE POPE IS DEAD (good riddance)
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
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General Brock
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General Brock
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1739
- Joined: 2005-03-16 03:52pm
- Location: Land of Resting Gophers, Canada
Patrick Degan wrote:
Sexual impropriety is nothing new in the Church; illicit heterosexual and homosexual affairs happen, and were prosecuted in much the same haphazzard way as the pedophilic ones. This is despite specific scriptural injunctions against those promiscuities, while having no similar injunctions against pedophilia. I don't recall severe enough reprecussions over priests who forced women they got pregnant to go get abortions, either.
Much of the American scandal did not come fully to JP II's attention until the local diocese lost control of it, so, despite having ultimate responsibility, he was not well-served by the Canadian or American bishops and this was probably the last thing a Pope would have expected from our part of the world. So, intelligent reaction took a hit early on.
The liberation theologians essentially bypassed the Vatican to implement a rogue vision of the Church using dubious means. The Church had no disagreement with the underlying motivations of social justice advocated by the liberationists, but had a big problem with their methods. The liberation theologists advocated a redifined relationship between Church and State (much closer), clergy and parishoner (formal political leadership), faith and secularism (inclusiveness). They threatened the integrity, unity, and credibility of the Catholic Church to reach across social classes and be a universal faith. Important secular leaders in industry and politics were alienated, as were lay people mistrustful of the marxist-socialist leanings of the liberationists. Theologians opposed liberation theology because of its unabashed worldly materialism.
In contrast, the pedophile priests were perverts without a cause or following, and, sincerely or not, demonstrated remorse and submission to the Church. The Pope and his advisors reacted to the sexual scandal as to other sex scandals; with insensitively and ignorance and their lawyers. Men dedicated to celibacy in an all-male brotherhood already will tend to have a limited understanding of sexuality. Sexual assault upon children probably offended JP II as did homosexuality or sexual assault upon women.
IN the wake of the scandal, there was also a groundswell of anti-Catholicism, and reformists within the Church asking for such heretical things as women priests and moving to lever the crisis to their advantage. There was also the possibility of a huge financial hit that would comprimise important Church programs. JP II acted to defend against the threats most apparent to the Church.
The liberation theologists stepped on some well-shod, well-heeled toes at a level of economic, political, cultural, and theological impudence unseen since Luther of Germany challenged Rome's cozy club. The Church has well-developed mechanisms to deal with formal power politics. The pedophile priests and their direct abetters were a distinct minority involved in serious apolitical crimes. The mechanisms to deal with sexual impropriety are somewhat more limited and immature, reflecting the Church's deficeincies in the area.
You are correct in laying out an intelligent course of action for dealing with the fallen priests, but expecting the Church to see this is giving them too much credit. They moved to contain the crisis where they could, then demanded love and forgiveness in the name of god, doubtless hoping for a miracle that the warm fuzzy dosen't keel over dead.
OK, with more equanimity: The Church is compelled to offer to the fallen priests the same conditional acceptance, compassion and spiritual guidance back to god that they offered the victims. Unless the pedophiles and their accomplices actually themselves defied the Church's legitmacy and Papal authorty, the Pope was limited in his options for dealing with them.
If the pedophile priests were organizing themselves into pro-pedophile lobby groups that go so far as to nudge-wink violence, back this with an alchemy of scriptural interpretations and selected schools of secular social 'science', all the while declaring themselves to represent the Catholic Church, and refusing to recognize the Vatican's authority to tell them to back down, I am sure they could expect severe reprimands the liberation theologians could only imagine.When it came to Liberation Theology, John-Paul moved swiftly to condemn it, then to retire or remove priests and bishops in Latin America who were part of or in sympathy with that movement. So don't try to say he couldn't have done the same thing in regards to pedophile priests in the United States.
Sexual impropriety is nothing new in the Church; illicit heterosexual and homosexual affairs happen, and were prosecuted in much the same haphazzard way as the pedophilic ones. This is despite specific scriptural injunctions against those promiscuities, while having no similar injunctions against pedophilia. I don't recall severe enough reprecussions over priests who forced women they got pregnant to go get abortions, either.
Much of the American scandal did not come fully to JP II's attention until the local diocese lost control of it, so, despite having ultimate responsibility, he was not well-served by the Canadian or American bishops and this was probably the last thing a Pope would have expected from our part of the world. So, intelligent reaction took a hit early on.
The liberation theologians essentially bypassed the Vatican to implement a rogue vision of the Church using dubious means. The Church had no disagreement with the underlying motivations of social justice advocated by the liberationists, but had a big problem with their methods. The liberation theologists advocated a redifined relationship between Church and State (much closer), clergy and parishoner (formal political leadership), faith and secularism (inclusiveness). They threatened the integrity, unity, and credibility of the Catholic Church to reach across social classes and be a universal faith. Important secular leaders in industry and politics were alienated, as were lay people mistrustful of the marxist-socialist leanings of the liberationists. Theologians opposed liberation theology because of its unabashed worldly materialism.
In contrast, the pedophile priests were perverts without a cause or following, and, sincerely or not, demonstrated remorse and submission to the Church. The Pope and his advisors reacted to the sexual scandal as to other sex scandals; with insensitively and ignorance and their lawyers. Men dedicated to celibacy in an all-male brotherhood already will tend to have a limited understanding of sexuality. Sexual assault upon children probably offended JP II as did homosexuality or sexual assault upon women.
IN the wake of the scandal, there was also a groundswell of anti-Catholicism, and reformists within the Church asking for such heretical things as women priests and moving to lever the crisis to their advantage. There was also the possibility of a huge financial hit that would comprimise important Church programs. JP II acted to defend against the threats most apparent to the Church.
The liberation theologists stepped on some well-shod, well-heeled toes at a level of economic, political, cultural, and theological impudence unseen since Luther of Germany challenged Rome's cozy club. The Church has well-developed mechanisms to deal with formal power politics. The pedophile priests and their direct abetters were a distinct minority involved in serious apolitical crimes. The mechanisms to deal with sexual impropriety are somewhat more limited and immature, reflecting the Church's deficeincies in the area.
You are correct in laying out an intelligent course of action for dealing with the fallen priests, but expecting the Church to see this is giving them too much credit. They moved to contain the crisis where they could, then demanded love and forgiveness in the name of god, doubtless hoping for a miracle that the warm fuzzy dosen't keel over dead.
OK, with more equanimity: The Church is compelled to offer to the fallen priests the same conditional acceptance, compassion and spiritual guidance back to god that they offered the victims. Unless the pedophiles and their accomplices actually themselves defied the Church's legitmacy and Papal authorty, the Pope was limited in his options for dealing with them.
Through that entire essay it has odd feeling of being an apologist for the Church and its lack of action in this affair. The 'Church' has a long standing history of being intolerant of many things to include science and Judaism. Will you be an apologist for that as well?General Brock wrote:Snip the bullshit
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HemlockGrey
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Through that entire essay it has odd feeling of being an apologist for the Church and its lack of action in this affair. The 'Church' has a long standing history of being intolerant of many things to include science and Judaism. Will you be an apologist for that as well?
Wow. Talk about irony.
Did you even read his post? His chief point was that the Liberation Theologists were an organized, political and religious movement, of the sort with which the Church is optimized to deal with, whereas the pedophiles were a haphazard phenomenom, of a sort with which the Church is at a disdvantage to counter through it's very nature, so naturally they could not respond as effectively to the pedophiles as they could to Liberation Theology. Brock was not "apologizing", as he too criticized the Church response.
Now, it is true that Pope John Paul II could have done much more about the pedophilia issue...that moronic "The Church can police itself" comment springs to mind.
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
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mr friendly guy
- The Doctor
- Posts: 11235
- Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
- Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia
No problemsGeneral Brock wrote:
Hmmm. Warning: Another long post, as I try and sort out my thoughts.
And the relevance to your reply to the OP (especially regarding Darth Wong calling him a shitty leader) is?General Brock wrote:People make bad decisions and tie themselves to bad systems. It is useful to understand why morally irrational stands are made and allowed to stand. I don't see JP II as some infallible superhuman, and I don't think he saw himself as such either.
But you were making excuses for him. Point A and B in your reply to the OP were essentially of the form " he was just following the Bible".General Brock wrote:I never argued he was above criticism, or not responsible for his actions as Pope.
You have mentioned that he did his "job requirements" adequately. I don't care if he gets an A + for doing what ever Popes are suppose to do. I am more concerned about what he did and whether it is immoral as judged by the negative consequences.
Since I didn't exactly accuse him to being unapproachable to ordinary people, whats they point of that sentence except to take up bandwidth?General Brock wrote: If anything, he went out of his way to be approachable to ordinary people.
You are again trying to argue that he "did his best in the context of his position". However that is irrelevant to whether his actions have negative impacts which can be assessed and criticised. And the fact that you acknowledge he could take (albeit not realistic) "more moral stands" bears this out.General Brock wrote:If he wanted to remain Pope, it was inevitable that he would find himself at odds with modern morality. It would have been nice if he either resigned or openly defied the scriptures in favour of more popular, more utilitarian moral stands, but that is not realistic.
That's good. Because I never suggested that was a false dilemma. I said it was a false dilemma to force us to compare "bad" with "worse" when we should be judging whether the Pope's actions were bad in itself.General Brock wrote:It is not a false dilemma to suggest the Pope had to be careful about how he went about his job.
You are repeating the same false dilemma. Essentially saying, well he could have been worse.General Brock wrote: Confused and angry lemmings have been known to engage in extreme bloodshed and violence. JP II refained from declaring crusades and bulls, inciting extremist religious strife, and refused to let the Bush and co. use the 'Just War (tm)' for their Iraq adventure.
General Brock wrote:As Pope, JP II seemed more determined to do honest good, <snip>
The fact that history's villains think of themselves as doing "honest good"(usually because they some delusions about themselves) should have thought people judging someone by "good intentions" as opposed to actual acts is pretty stupid.
General Brock wrote:He was not the sort of naturally conniving politician or ignorant demagogue I would have expected from Popes past, nor was he a liberal token of a figurehead.
Does he bear responsibility for protective paedophile priests. Does he bear responsibility for telling Africans lies about condoms. Either he does or he doesn't.
Whether he is or is not a "naturally conniving politicians", "ignorant demagogue" or "what you would expect from Popes past" is irrelevant to the criticisms expressed in the OP.
General Brock wrote: He tried to maximize the good that could be done through the Church, and surprise, surprise, the Church was found wanting.
Their is a fucking difference between not being able to help more people and actively causing harm. I again refer you to the criticisms expressed in the OP.
emphasis mineGeneral Brock wrote:Oh, yes, as a matter of fact I would respect a murderer and rapist who was honest and open about it, more so than one who connives and lies and tries to get away with it, or worse, does.
It is much easier to deal with open problems and deal them justice, whether rehab or life imprisonment [Canada does not have capital punishment]. It would not be the same positive quality of respect I have for good people, but it's there.
The fact that someone who is evil but admits to it gets your respect speaks volumes.
So you shouldn't have a problem when the pope is criticised for doing the opposite of what "an instrument of reason and utilitarian good" should do.General Brock wrote:The Pope may be wrong about how to deal with AIDS in Africa, but the Church has a clear policy against contraception and pre/extra marital sex, and following it greatly improves the chances of avoiding an STD or complications from a flawed contraceptive. It is scientifically sound, even if it is ignorant and unrealistic. I never said the Catholic Church was an instrument of reason and utilitarian good.
What's your point?General Brock wrote:Regardless of what the Pope says, there are people in NA who are not even religious that find reasons not to use condoms and be promicuous - even when they know they are not only at risk but an STD carrier.
Because the Church wasn't 100% responsible for the problem (no one accused them of, just of making the problem worse) its ok?
Because the problem isn't going to be 100% cured the Church washes its hands of its responsibility of making it worse.
Tell that to the people who want to distribute condoms but can't, courtesy of the churchGeneral Brock wrote:The Pope is hardly going to tell the Africans what to do if they do not want to do it, I am not going to blame him entirely for that.
The implication of course, that the Church is being held to a different standard.General Brock wrote: People in secular authority have tired to hide and excuse pedophilia as well. Why would I expect the Church to be any different than, say, the early secular school boards?
Your comparison might actually mean something, if people didn't criticise secular schools for excusing paedophilia but strangely criticised the Catholic Church. Got any more red herrings?
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.
Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
Firstly on this programe has anyone actually read the Transcript of the Programe or are you all just reading the Newspaper article.mr friendly guy wrote:church
While the Transcript is not easy reading it goes into a little more depth, for example the part in the linked to article where it mentions the Nun advising the man not to use a Condomn with his wife is misleading. The Nun advises the man not to Have SEX with his wife period full stop. Not to have Sex with his wife, a decision the man has made and agreed with fully. The way the article presents it, sounds like he is still having Sex with his wife and not using a Condom.
Now as far as I can tell the Church is telling people the Condom is not 100% safe, some of it's ways of saying this may indeed be unscientific, (However it seems people are holding the Pope resopnsible for every Nun, Priest and Monk in the Church, is Bush responsible for a low level Civil Servents actions that he has never met?)
Now on Peodophiles, as Mentioned for a long time the Pope knew nothing about what was occuring as for the Churchs actions...
For a start many higher ups in the Church are older people and came from a time when you dealt with such things internally.
it should be noted that when in 2004Others, however, disagree and believe that the Church's mishandling of the sex abuse cases merely reflected prevailing attitudes of the time towards such activity, in which the tendency was to suppress the information lest it cause scandal and a loss of trust in the institution, an approach reflected in the manner in which the media and secular organisations hid damaging information or ignored it; from the sexual promiscuity of leading politicians to domestic violence. They see the Church as having made horrendous but genuine mistakes, their leaders being out of touch with society's increasing demand for exposure and retribution.
Finnally the situation in the Catholic Church and Peodophillia is over-emphasised there to this day exists no statistics makig it more common amongests Priests than any other place of trust.Motivated by a belief in an international Catholic conspiracy, a Louisville, Kentucky lawyer filed suit in June 2004 against the Vatican, alleging Roman participation in a cover-up of sexual abuse problems. Legal experts predict an unsuccessful outcome to this case, given the sovereignty of the Holy See and the lack of evidence of Vatican complicity.
(This is especially relevent as at one point the claim that it was somehow linked to Celibacy was made here on the forums. This is not seemingly the case)T
hough paedophile rings have been found, the fact that there is no noticeable difference between the level of child-orientated sexual activity among the unmarried Catholic clergy and the married clergy of other denominations suggests that paedophiles as a group have not specially targeted the Catholic clergy for entry, though it seems likely that some paedophiles have entered its ordained ministry as they have other ministries elsewhere.
In short the Church fecked up here, out of touch with prevelent moods,in the dealing with such matters, and perhaps not truely understanding such things as Sex. (Many Priests have came out saying time in the Seminary did not arm them in how to deal with a life without Sex. Or in understanding Sex to well.)
The above
[Fixed your tags - Kev]
From a review of the two Towers.... 'As for Gimli being comic relief, what if your comic relief had a huge axe and fells dozens of Orcs? That's a pretty cool comic relief. '
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General Brock
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1739
- Joined: 2005-03-16 03:52pm
- Location: Land of Resting Gophers, Canada
Various arguments of mr friendly guy:
This didn't transfer smoothly from .txt, blast it!
* Relevance of initial post to OP:
-----
I thought JP II wasn't that bad. Then I got a little flippant ....
-----
*Making excuses:
-----
I am concerned with why an apparently good and intelligent man was compelled to arrive at inadequate and immoral conclusions too serious social crisis. I never said explanation was exoneration.
------
*Wasting bandwidth on saying Pope reached out to common people:
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JP II went out of his way to portray himself as a sensitive religious leader in tune with modern social perspectives and concerns and the lives of the lay Catholic, so as to better promote Catholicism as relevant in modern societies and worth staying/joining/giving money and time to.
----
*"Context of position" arguments irrelevant to whether his actions have
negative impacts which can be assessed and criticized.
-----
Leaders act in the context of their position; how would you propose explaining their actions? If a mathematics student got a wrong answer to a problem, it might be useful to know how the calculation was made.
-----
*It is a false dilemma to force us to compare "bad" with "worse" when we should be judging whether the Pope's actions were bad in itself.
-----
OK. I just thought he wasn't a bad guy, and it naturally follows that I think things could have been worse with a less scrupulous Pope. Many of the Pope's actions and inactions were bad in and of themselves. He was framing solutions based on priorities dictated to him by the Church's needs and doctrines, not by the actual situations and needs on the ground.
-----
*Repeating the same false dilemma. Essentially saying, well he could
have been worse:
-----
Fine. Nonetheless, JP II is considered one of the best, most liberal Popes in generations. Those who paid critical attention know he honestly couldn't make Catholicism work as a reasoned institution promoting utilitarian good. Still, he played well only to his own audiance - which is quite large.
-----
*History's villains think of themselves as doing "honest good" (usually because they some delusions about themselves). Judging someone by "good intentions" as opposed to actual acts is pretty stupid.
-----
If history's villains believed they were acting with the best intentions, and enough people believed them to make history, I want to look at the disparities between intention and action, and study both. Historical patterns like that tend to repeat themselves.
-----
*Does he bear responsibility for protective paedophile priests, for telling Africans lies about condoms? Either he does or he doesn't. Whether he is or is not a "naturally conniving politician", "ignorant demagogue" or "what you would expect from Popes past" is irrelevant to the criticisms expressed in the OP.
-----
JP II bore his responsibilities in accordance with Church doctrine, as his executive position and his being a man of his faith required. Yet he made some astonishingly bad decisions. Since the Pope doesn't answer to secular morality, but to the Catholic interpretations of morality, why would I not point that out as a major problem in his worldview? Especially since he was a personal exemplar of the faith, not an easily dismissed hypocrite.
-----
*There is a difference between not being able to help more people and
actively causing harm. I again refer you to the criticisms expressed in
the OP.
------
The Church believes its remedies are helping people, not causing harm, because they offer salvation first and foremost, not material comforts. The Church's objective material failings won't break them; they expect the world to be a 'veil of tears'.
------
*The fact that someone who is evil but admits to it gets your respect
speaks volumes.
------
Your willingness to not respect an evil person speaks volumes as well. There is no cut-off point at which another human being is not a human
being, so why shouldn't I respect the danger a psychopath would represent, in real terms? For that matter, I can't visit death row with a gun or chainsaw and plink the inmates, because that would be murder. Their lives have enough value to be treated humanely to the end. The elaborate measures to contain or end their lives are for our own good as a society of caring beings.
Sociopathy is learned psychopathy, and for the protection of the public good, respect for human life is important. Evil is not some unfathomable mystery, and medical and psychiatric science has made great strides in identifying and treating criminal behaviour, in part due to 'evil' people owning up to their problems and offering to be a part of the solution.
Their motives may vary, but we understand a lot more about what goes into antisocial behaviour now than we would if they were simply shot on sight or caged and ignored. A criminal who won't admit to having a problem, and worse, gets away with it, is less worthy than one who concedes not knowing the difference between right and wrong and either seeks help or otherwise makes it easier to prevent harm.
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*You shouldn't have a problem when the pope is criticized for doing the opposite of what "an instrument of reason and utilitarian good" should do.
-----
Well, no, I don't. Why would I be upset about the Pope being criticized
for his failings or criticism of the failings of the Church? Still, I
don't expect a pope to pontificate like a secular humanist.
------
*What's your point? [Specific to making the AIDS in Africa worse but I'm
generalizing for convenience.]
-----
The point is that social problems are not going to be solved even if every Catholic obeyed the Pope - and many do not. The Church is not washing its hands of these situations so much as wringing its hands uselessly over how nobody is following their god-given advice. When did I say the Church was not making things objectively worse by promoting totally inadequate solutions?
-----
General Brock wrote:
The Pope is hardly going to tell the Africans what to do if they do not want to do it, I am not going to blame him entirely for that.
*Tell that to the people who want to distribute condoms but can't, courtesy of the church
-----
So, if a condom fails, the Church can take the blame for that as well as indirectly promoting what they consider to be sexually irresponsible activity? They have enough hypocrisy problems, what with rogue priests raping nuns and forcing them to get abortions.
At least their official position is actually safe; no sex, no problem. No-one gets excommunicated for wearing a condom, either. You are still also assuming these people will listen to a pope who somehow allows condoms, rather than enforce traditional orthodoxy.
-----
General Brock wrote:
People in secular authority have tired to hide and excuse pedophilia as well. Why would I expect the Church to be any different than, say, the early secular school boards?
*The implication of course, that the Church is being held to a different
standard.
Your comparison might actually mean something, if people didn't criticize secular schools for excusing paedophilia but strangely criticized the Catholic Church. Got any more red herrings?
-----
The implication being that cover-up, denial, and evasion of liability are part of scandal control in large social organizations, including the Church. The Pope made serious mistakes here, compounded by the fact that the Church had no helpful scripture references to spell things out for him, his subordnates were hiding the truth from him, trying to fix things the old fashioned way, and the Church was suffering a shortage of lay priests, making it more attractive to try and 'cure' them in-house
You expect me to believe that school boards, scout clubs, and hockey leagues didn't occasionally turn a blind eye to predators in their midst, until they had no choice but to own up to the problem? Before predators were regularly caught and dealt with by the authorities, less formal means, such as discrete firing or shuffling to different posts in the organization, were normal.
I remember the explosion of the issue in the late 1980s and early 1990s; it is only now that our public institutions seem so forthcoming that it seems natural they would not cover an abuser.
-----
Learn how to use the quote function.
-Your Friendly, Neighborhood Rampant AI
This didn't transfer smoothly from .txt, blast it!
* Relevance of initial post to OP:
-----
I thought JP II wasn't that bad. Then I got a little flippant ....
-----
*Making excuses:
-----
I am concerned with why an apparently good and intelligent man was compelled to arrive at inadequate and immoral conclusions too serious social crisis. I never said explanation was exoneration.
------
*Wasting bandwidth on saying Pope reached out to common people:
-----
JP II went out of his way to portray himself as a sensitive religious leader in tune with modern social perspectives and concerns and the lives of the lay Catholic, so as to better promote Catholicism as relevant in modern societies and worth staying/joining/giving money and time to.
----
*"Context of position" arguments irrelevant to whether his actions have
negative impacts which can be assessed and criticized.
-----
Leaders act in the context of their position; how would you propose explaining their actions? If a mathematics student got a wrong answer to a problem, it might be useful to know how the calculation was made.
-----
*It is a false dilemma to force us to compare "bad" with "worse" when we should be judging whether the Pope's actions were bad in itself.
-----
OK. I just thought he wasn't a bad guy, and it naturally follows that I think things could have been worse with a less scrupulous Pope. Many of the Pope's actions and inactions were bad in and of themselves. He was framing solutions based on priorities dictated to him by the Church's needs and doctrines, not by the actual situations and needs on the ground.
-----
*Repeating the same false dilemma. Essentially saying, well he could
have been worse:
-----
Fine. Nonetheless, JP II is considered one of the best, most liberal Popes in generations. Those who paid critical attention know he honestly couldn't make Catholicism work as a reasoned institution promoting utilitarian good. Still, he played well only to his own audiance - which is quite large.
-----
*History's villains think of themselves as doing "honest good" (usually because they some delusions about themselves). Judging someone by "good intentions" as opposed to actual acts is pretty stupid.
-----
If history's villains believed they were acting with the best intentions, and enough people believed them to make history, I want to look at the disparities between intention and action, and study both. Historical patterns like that tend to repeat themselves.
-----
*Does he bear responsibility for protective paedophile priests, for telling Africans lies about condoms? Either he does or he doesn't. Whether he is or is not a "naturally conniving politician", "ignorant demagogue" or "what you would expect from Popes past" is irrelevant to the criticisms expressed in the OP.
-----
JP II bore his responsibilities in accordance with Church doctrine, as his executive position and his being a man of his faith required. Yet he made some astonishingly bad decisions. Since the Pope doesn't answer to secular morality, but to the Catholic interpretations of morality, why would I not point that out as a major problem in his worldview? Especially since he was a personal exemplar of the faith, not an easily dismissed hypocrite.
-----
*There is a difference between not being able to help more people and
actively causing harm. I again refer you to the criticisms expressed in
the OP.
------
The Church believes its remedies are helping people, not causing harm, because they offer salvation first and foremost, not material comforts. The Church's objective material failings won't break them; they expect the world to be a 'veil of tears'.
------
*The fact that someone who is evil but admits to it gets your respect
speaks volumes.
------
Your willingness to not respect an evil person speaks volumes as well. There is no cut-off point at which another human being is not a human
being, so why shouldn't I respect the danger a psychopath would represent, in real terms? For that matter, I can't visit death row with a gun or chainsaw and plink the inmates, because that would be murder. Their lives have enough value to be treated humanely to the end. The elaborate measures to contain or end their lives are for our own good as a society of caring beings.
Sociopathy is learned psychopathy, and for the protection of the public good, respect for human life is important. Evil is not some unfathomable mystery, and medical and psychiatric science has made great strides in identifying and treating criminal behaviour, in part due to 'evil' people owning up to their problems and offering to be a part of the solution.
Their motives may vary, but we understand a lot more about what goes into antisocial behaviour now than we would if they were simply shot on sight or caged and ignored. A criminal who won't admit to having a problem, and worse, gets away with it, is less worthy than one who concedes not knowing the difference between right and wrong and either seeks help or otherwise makes it easier to prevent harm.
-----
*You shouldn't have a problem when the pope is criticized for doing the opposite of what "an instrument of reason and utilitarian good" should do.
-----
Well, no, I don't. Why would I be upset about the Pope being criticized
for his failings or criticism of the failings of the Church? Still, I
don't expect a pope to pontificate like a secular humanist.
------
*What's your point? [Specific to making the AIDS in Africa worse but I'm
generalizing for convenience.]
-----
The point is that social problems are not going to be solved even if every Catholic obeyed the Pope - and many do not. The Church is not washing its hands of these situations so much as wringing its hands uselessly over how nobody is following their god-given advice. When did I say the Church was not making things objectively worse by promoting totally inadequate solutions?
-----
General Brock wrote:
The Pope is hardly going to tell the Africans what to do if they do not want to do it, I am not going to blame him entirely for that.
*Tell that to the people who want to distribute condoms but can't, courtesy of the church
-----
So, if a condom fails, the Church can take the blame for that as well as indirectly promoting what they consider to be sexually irresponsible activity? They have enough hypocrisy problems, what with rogue priests raping nuns and forcing them to get abortions.
At least their official position is actually safe; no sex, no problem. No-one gets excommunicated for wearing a condom, either. You are still also assuming these people will listen to a pope who somehow allows condoms, rather than enforce traditional orthodoxy.
-----
General Brock wrote:
People in secular authority have tired to hide and excuse pedophilia as well. Why would I expect the Church to be any different than, say, the early secular school boards?
*The implication of course, that the Church is being held to a different
standard.
Your comparison might actually mean something, if people didn't criticize secular schools for excusing paedophilia but strangely criticized the Catholic Church. Got any more red herrings?
-----
The implication being that cover-up, denial, and evasion of liability are part of scandal control in large social organizations, including the Church. The Pope made serious mistakes here, compounded by the fact that the Church had no helpful scripture references to spell things out for him, his subordnates were hiding the truth from him, trying to fix things the old fashioned way, and the Church was suffering a shortage of lay priests, making it more attractive to try and 'cure' them in-house
You expect me to believe that school boards, scout clubs, and hockey leagues didn't occasionally turn a blind eye to predators in their midst, until they had no choice but to own up to the problem? Before predators were regularly caught and dealt with by the authorities, less formal means, such as discrete firing or shuffling to different posts in the organization, were normal.
I remember the explosion of the issue in the late 1980s and early 1990s; it is only now that our public institutions seem so forthcoming that it seems natural they would not cover an abuser.
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Learn how to use the quote function.
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Eframepilot
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1007
- Joined: 2002-09-05 03:35am
Uh-oh. Looks like you insensitive bastards (you know who you are) may be celebrating too early. A kindred spirit (with a familiar name) has a disturbing theory on the Pope's "death":
+http://shortpacked.itswalky.com/d/20050404.html+
+http://shortpacked.itswalky.com/d/20050404.html+
I knew it. It's all about commercialism these days. Now they can sell five different brands of Pope action figures...Eframepilot wrote:Uh-oh. Looks like you insensitive bastards (you know who you are) may be celebrating too early. A kindred spirit (with a familiar name) has a disturbing theory on the Pope's "death":
+http://shortpacked.itswalky.com/d/20050404.html+
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Gandalf
- SD.net White Wizard
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Apparently people are calling for him to be dubbed a saint. Just heard it on the evening news.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
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Lord Pounder
- Pretty Hate Machine
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Faram
- Bastard Operator from Hell
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Well well
Bernard Law the Phedophile protecting cardinal is holding the memorial mass.
How fitting...
Bernard Law the Phedophile protecting cardinal is holding the memorial mass.
How fitting...
[img=right]http://hem.bredband.net/b217293/warsaban.gif[/img]
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" -Epicurus
Fear is the mother of all gods.
Nature does all things spontaneously, by herself, without the meddling of the gods. -Lucretius
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. ... If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. ... If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" -Epicurus
Fear is the mother of all gods.
Nature does all things spontaneously, by herself, without the meddling of the gods. -Lucretius
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Lord Zentei
- Space Elf Psyker
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Started a redundant thread here: Link
I can only wonder what the next insipid story will be.I have been grousing over the prevelance of pope nonsense on the news, and initially I intended to boycott any pope threads. But it seems I have been unable to keep away after all. Now I'm actually starting a thread not as much on the pope, but on how much the news sucks of recent because of him.
Need something to say about the pope? Exhausted all the BS you can find? Never fear! There are always little tidbits of completely no relevance to anything of import that can be dug up:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europ ... index.html
When will we get over this shit and get some real news?
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel!
-- Asuka
TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet
And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel!
-- AsukaThe Polish People are calling for it. It's the shared call amongest the 1.5Million in the Vatican, and the majourity in Krakov and Poland overall. Seems they think he was a key part in gaining their independence. I mean what a crazy concept he only came into the Country after he was made Pope and during the Cold War and spoke of Freedom.Gandalf wrote:Apparently people are calling for him to be dubbed a saint. Just heard it on the evening news.
He only provided a alternative voice to the Communist rulers crazy talk by the Polish people who don't know what led to them form and support the solidarity movement...
Oh wait I forgot to turn sarcasm mode off.
From a review of the two Towers.... 'As for Gimli being comic relief, what if your comic relief had a huge axe and fells dozens of Orcs? That's a pretty cool comic relief. '
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Imperial Overlord
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Skelron, stop fucking trolling this thread. We aren't trolling the mourning thread. Go distort and exagerate his deeds somewhere fucking else.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
LOLImperial Overlord wrote:Skelron, stop fucking trolling this thread. We aren't trolling the mourning thread. Go distort and exagerate his deeds somewhere fucking else.
Yes distorting and exxagerating the National Mourning in poland OH WAIT your the ones fucking ignoring it because you want to bitch and moan about another religious leader. I point out that the Polish people are calling for his sainthood which they are. (In fact I underplayed it they are calling for his immediate sainthood) To be accused of exaggerating. Forget it, your right I will leave you all to your bitterhate.
Hell lets not forget that he's in the news, I mean my god how dare they show him in the news, the leader of the religion of 1 in 6 people on this planet dies and they dare show it on the news as a major world event...
HOW Fucking dare they.
From a review of the two Towers.... 'As for Gimli being comic relief, what if your comic relief had a huge axe and fells dozens of Orcs? That's a pretty cool comic relief. '
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Keevan_Colton
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Skelron, quit trolling in this thread or I'll split your shit off.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
BOTM - EBC - Horseman - G&C - Vampire
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
BOTM - EBC - Horseman - G&C - Vampire
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2000AD
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Pope IdolMelchior wrote:They can't leave the vatican: until some time ago, they were also locked in a room, and some centuries ago, they were also without food, to speed up the decision.General Brock wrote:Dworkin wrote:
They should televise this like Survivors, perhaps set in some real-world locale far removed from the Vatican.15 heads and leaders of the Catholic Church will compete for the coveted title of Pope. Every day the College of Cardinals will vote a contestant off.
Ph34r teh eyebrow!!11!Writers Guild Sluggite Pawn of Chaos WYGIWYGAINGW so now i have to put ACPATHNTDWATGODW in my sig EBC-Honorary Geordie
Hammerman! Hammer!
Hammerman! Hammer!
I think "Vatican Idol" sounds better.2000AD wrote:Dworkin wrote:
Pope Idol15 heads and leaders of the Catholic Church will compete for the coveted title of Pope. Every day the College of Cardinals will vote a contestant off.
I'm a trolling moron and my E-mail is mbiddinger@mchsi.com
And as soon as they can provide two miracles he's accomplished then he's a saint otherwise he's just a man. A man who could care less if his church is infested with pedophiles.Skelron wrote:The Polish People are calling for it. It's the shared call amongest the 1.5Million in the Vatican, and the majourity in Krakov and Poland overall. Seems they think he was a key part in gaining their independence. I mean what a crazy concept he only came into the Country after he was made Pope and during the Cold War and spoke of Freedom.Gandalf wrote:Apparently people are calling for him to be dubbed a saint. Just heard it on the evening news.
He only provided a alternative voice to the Communist rulers crazy talk by the Polish people who don't know what led to them form and support the solidarity movement...
Oh wait I forgot to turn sarcasm mode off.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Ripped Shirt Monkey - BOTMWriter's Guild Cybertron's Finest Justice League
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This updated sig brought to you by JME2
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General Zod
- Never Shuts Up
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am i the only one that sees a reality tv survivor series concept out of this? incredibly blasphemous, but damn. it has potential. . .2000AD wrote:Pope IdolMelchior wrote:They can't leave the vatican: until some time ago, they were also locked in a room, and some centuries ago, they were also without food, to speed up the decision.General Brock wrote:Dworkin wrote:
They should televise this like Survivors, perhaps set in some real-world locale far removed from the Vatican.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
That joke has been floating around for a bit.Darth_Zod wrote:am i the only one that sees a reality tv survivor series concept out of this? incredibly blasphemous, but damn. it has potential. . .
What I'm interested in are the contests. There'd be a 'heal the sick' challenge, a 'water into wine' tasting contest, stuff like that.
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Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi
- What Kind of Username is That?
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Perhaps an Apprentice-esque show, complete with Jesus sporting a really bad hairpiece?Petrosjko wrote:That joke has been floating around for a bit.Darth_Zod wrote:am i the only one that sees a reality tv survivor series concept out of this? incredibly blasphemous, but damn. it has potential. . .
What I'm interested in are the contests. There'd be a 'heal the sick' challenge, a 'water into wine' tasting contest, stuff like that.
BotM: Just another monkey|HAB