Strength of Star Wars Cloth...

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2005-04-09 02:50am

Cal Wright wrote: I skimmed your stupid shit, and found it fucking backwards and boring. Let's try this one more time. I'll speak slowly, and make this as plain as possible.

My argument is that Vader's glove absorbed and/or directed the bolts fired from Solo's blaster. Everyone else's argument is he used the Force.

So in other words, you couldn't respond to my points logically,a nd just figured you'd repeat your argument ad nauseum, like a good little ignorant fucktard troll.

The Evidence.

ESB film footage.
Shots are fired, Vader raises hands, shots are blocked/deflected, and there are explosions at his hand. No spoken explanation.

Nice simplification. Note how you deliberately ignore any sort of detailed examination fo the scene in question (particularily, the disappearance of the bolt, the delay in effects, the observed differences in "ricochet".)

Oh wait, they don't matter of course, right? You tossed all logic out the window a LOOONG time ago.

ESB novelisation.
First paragraph describes him as raising a gauntlet PROTECTED hand. Notice, that it SAYS that the hand is PROTECTED. That's a key word.

You don't really recognize what a "false cause" fallacy is, do you? I repeat yet again, you're being a fucking semantics whore. Focusing on the interpretation of a single word or phrase as the basis for your entire argument is NOT evidence.

Next paragraph describes Vader as using the Force to pull the gun from Solo's hand to his.

And you claim that because they didn't mention use of the Force in deflecting the bolts, that he obviously did not. Right, this is supposed to be "logic" how again?

Let's see. My argument is supported by on screen and written facts. I say his glove blocked and/or deflected the shots. We see this happening in the film, no spoken dialog to support. Next step, we take the novelisation. Novelisation states he raised a GAUNTLET PROTECTED hand.

You're a semantics-whoring fucktard who deliberately ignores any and every attempt at detailed analysis simply because it proves contrary to your little obsessive belief.

Now if you are CAPABLE of actual logic rather than imitating one of Mike's "Hate Mail" page entries, try addressing the specific points I posted above. Assuming you can amass the neccessary brain power that is.

Why do I not think the Force was used. Because there is no mention of the Force being used in the paragraph describing the bolts being blocked, however in the NEXT paragraph it describes him using the Force to pull the gun out of his hand. If he was using the Force all along, why didn't it go like this:

"Solo may have been the quickest draw in the galaxy, but he was not fast enough to take Vader. The Sith Lord raised his hand, using the Force he deflected the shots and pulled the gun to him."

I cna play that game too. Why didn't they call his gauntlet a "blaster resistant" gauntlet then? Quit the fucking semantics whoring and address my points you fucking pussy. Or did you forget that a certain level of logic is demanded here?

That would be a simple Force use right there. However, this is not how the passage occured. The passage states he raised GAUNTLET-PROTECTED hand to deflect the shots. Then in the next paragraph, not the same one mind you, it describes him using the Force to pull the gun to him.

In other words, you shove your head up your ass and repetitively scream "IT WAS A GAUNTLET PROTECTED HAND! " because you have no real logic or evidence to bring to bear to support your assertion. Remind me again of how this is NOT semantics whoring?

So, if you guys want to continue in speculation, go right ahead. Unless you have solid canon evidence that this was not the case, then it's a concession accepted.

So not only are you a whiny little semantics whoring bitch, but youre a canon purist whore as well. Or rather, you're a fucking pussy who thinks that he can simply dismiss the inconveneint EU evidence that proves him wrong outright by hiding behind the "ONLY CANON MATTERS" excuse that every irrationalist troll invariably uses to bolster their pathetic arguments.

Fuck you, and again Concession Accepted, you fucking retard.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2005-04-09 03:15am

nightmare wrote:
Cal Wright wrote:WHAT over riding evidence?!? The only evidence higher then my novel quote is the movie. Guess what you fucktard cockmonkey? It don't say shit to the contrary. What the hell is logic of opinion anyways? Everyone's fucking saying it so logically I'm wrong?

I don't get it? Everyone's insisting that he just had to use the Force in order to deflect those bolts. Do they surround thier lightsabre's when they deflect bolts with the Force? We've seen evidence of materials in the Star Wars universe being quite resiliant and this is just another case.
Wayne Poe has a rather good page on the subject.

Dang, you posted that before I did. (Thanks to Wayne though for doing that for me! )

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2005-04-09 03:39am

Had the wrong thumbs posted in my page 3 post, but here they are again, full res versions of same sequence from Poe's site, and 2 other ones of the last blasts where he's moving his hands mid deflection.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2005-04-09 05:06am

I figured it is worth mentioning that Vader's right hand is still human from what we see in ROTJ. In other words, the novelization is correct in calling it a hand with a glove rather than a mechanical hand.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-04-09 05:45am

nightmare wrote:I figured it is worth mentioning that Vader's right hand is still human from what we see in ROTJ.

Um, no it isn't. Doesn't make much sense to have an organic hand attached to a cybernetic wrist...

EDIT: Okay, I seen the mention and images of bone-glow on SWTC, but I think that can be rationalised with our knowedge from AotC and RotS as still being mechanical in nature (although maybe not absolutely metallic), but perhaps resembling bone under such circumstances.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-04-09 06:24am

Stofsk wrote:
Cal Wright wrote:Not to mention that the next paragraph describes Vader using the Force to draw Solo's gun out of his hand and into his. Strange it doesn't describe Vader using the Force to deflect bolts, yet mentions gauntlet-protected hand.
...
So Han Solo's blaster, which can rip concrete chunks off of a Tattooine spaceport, can be stopped by Darth Vader's armour?

What's so amazing about that?

And a lightsaber that can melt through a heavy Blast Door on a Federation Battleshield can be stopped by Darth Vader's armor?

Heck, Han Solo shoots Stormtroopers in the head and chest (ROTJ), and they aren't "gibbed." Of course you can then start arguing power levels with blasters, but can you do the same with lightsabers? Anyway, I hope you get my point...

Yes, shoulder guards that ARE armoured. Tell me how you can armour the inside of your palm. Particularly guaranteeing flexibility in order to move the fingers/manipulators enough to actually wield objects and maintain some dexterity.

Was answered already. They make kevlar gloves in real life. I'm not saying this proves that his gauntlets are identical in strength to his shoulder armor (could Vader block a lightsaber blade with his palm?), but it stands to reason that his gloves need not be ordinary leather.

I don't even see how this is a goddamn issue; AOTC shows Yoda absorbing and then dissipating energy, same as Dooku. Oh no, neither one had gauntlets on...

Yoda absorbs Dooku's lightning and then (there was some debate on this) either "redirects the energy" back at Dooku or creates his own lightning and throws it. Dooku deflects the lightning that comes at him from Yoda (see the difference).

Of course that Vong example might (I haven't read the NJO) indicate an important physical difference between Force lightning and blaster bolts fired from a gun.

I believe the CW cartoons showed Obi-wan do the same. Again, un-gauntleted.

In this case (assuming you're referring to his battle with the alien villian Durge from Season 1... I haven't watched Season 3), Obi-Wan blocks Durge's flamethrower with his hand, and he's wearing ARC Trooper armor at the time (sans helmet). The tongue of flame stops a bit short of his outstretched palm and the projector on Durge's suit melts (implying he's pushing the flames back with the Force).

That's amazing and cool, but of course, that's different than sucking the fire into his hand, and then shooting it back out (compare how it looks vs. Yoda "absorbing" Dooku's lightning). IIRC, the fire appears to actually bend back away from his hand (at a distance).

Interesting stuff about Vader not being able to use lightning as a physical limitation. That's kind of a spoiler though, it implies Vader loses his other arm in ROTS to have it replaced by cybernetics.

Though I wonder if Lightning has to be cast through the hands? insert Braveheart reference here

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-04-09 06:27am

Don't reply to old parts of a discussion from pages ago, Kurgan. Especially when you're just pulling your typical unproductive non-answer "sound-of-my-voice" bullshit.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-04-09 06:38am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Don't reply to old parts of a discussion from pages ago, Kurgan. Especially when you're just pulling your typical unproductive non-answer "sound-of-my-voice" bullshit.

Don't use your anger towards me as an argument. You seem furious in the last few threads. Why don't you take a breather from these debates for awhile and then you can come up with something better than "I'm so mad at you for being stupid" as a reply.

I can reply to anyone's post in the thread that I want to, FYI.

Back on topic: I thought Dooku having a saber and blaster proof cape and clothes sounded silly, but oh well, it's C-level.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-04-09 06:40am

Dooku's cape isn't blaster-proof. It's just an armour-weave.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-04-09 06:41am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Dooku's cape isn't blaster-proof. It's just an armour-weave.

So is it blaster resistant then? I don't own said book, I only know it was quoted as being somehow protective against blasters and sabers.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-04-09 06:43am

What, like the damn thing is Teflon-coated? It's an armour-weave, it provides additional protection. Is it too much for you to understand what that means without making others walk into a constructed definition you provide?

I don't recall exactly where it comes from at the moment.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-04-09 06:51am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:What, like the damn thing is Teflon-coated? It's an armour-weave. Is it too much for you to understand what that means without making others walk into a constructed definition you provide?

All I'm asking is can he pull the thing over his face Count Dracula style, and use it to protect him from getting shot/sliced.

I realize that we use the common term "Bullet Proof Vest" for kevlar body armor, even though it technically only "resists" bullets.

Saying something is "armored" and "stops blaster bolts (which are friggin' powerful)" is a big difference. If I hear a Knight is wearing a suit of armor, I don't assume he can survive grenades in it or something. So it does matter. If Dooku's cloak is only "tear resistant" why don't they say that instead of Blaster Resistant/Proof?

If the garments are just really tough cloth, so he doesn't get them ripped up when he's fighting, I understand. But the quote was that they explicitly protected against sabers and blasters, which seems pretty danged tough for something that looks and moves like cloth. IF such a thing is possible, Vader having a cloth-like glove that is similarly protective is plausible.

Hope that's explanation enough.

Anyway, I can SEE that Vader absorbs Han's blaster shots with the Force in the movie. The novel says he deflects them, the movie is higher level, so it's correct. I hadn't noticed the "redirection" thing before this thread, that's the new piece of info for me.

The only point I'm fuzzy on, is if Vader sucks in one of the bolts and then shoots it out his hand, or one just happens to bounce off into the wall (lack of concentration on Vader's part for a split second?). We've seen deflections from people's hands before (Dooku blocking Yoda's lightning), but the implication is that the Glove would be harmed by the deflection.

If it's armored, it can bounce a blaster shot off of it and only smoke a little bit. That's pretty cool! So Vader's hands were never in any danger, he just showed how cool he was with the Force by not killing everyone else in the room with his deflections. He needed Solo and Leia alive to bait Luke, and he wasn't about to kill Lando off while he still needed him for the trap.

Edit: The quote I'm talking about with regards to Dooku is (IIRC) the AOTC Visual Dictionary, which again IIRC was released right before the movie.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-04-09 06:58am

Oh, in regards to Vader having an organic hand attached to a cybernetic wrist, isn't that within the realm of SW tech? I'd rather not think about it either, but if necessary you could certainly work it in. Perhaps he falls into the lava (or whatever, I haven't read spoilers) and keeps his hand above the surface or just his elbow falls in... so they save the hand and attach it. It's kept alive through tissue connections to the rest of the system, and wha la.. organic hand. They were able to save it, so they used it.

I mean, if it were me, I'd try to preserve as much of my organic self as I could. Vader was apparently quite pissed that he couldn't breath unaided (in the ROTJ novel was it?) so this seems to fit in character. Otherwise he could just make his whole body from the neck down robotic.

I admit I don't really like the idea that "more meat = more force power" and that includes the idea that without hands he can't use certain force powers (I know, there's still the possible explanation that Force Lightning is just bad for machinery so it's too dangerous to use, but still).

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-04-09 07:02am

Except that it's his right arm, which he lost at the elbow in AotC and then again at the shoulder in Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

SPOILER, SUCKA!!
Anakin gets his left arm cut off at the elbow and both legs at the knees by Obi-Wan. Anakin then falls down an embankment and lands on a sandbank next to a lavaflow. He starts to attempt to climb out using his cybernetic right arm when his clothes catch fire, then his whole body bursts into flames.

And in regards to the idea of "Force Lightning = bad for cybernetics," I personally think that's EXACTLY why Vader is both vulnerable to and can't produce it, rather than being related to his weakened state or inability to conduct the Force through his arms. It's what kills him, afterall...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-09 07:39am

Cal Wright wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:
Cal Wright wrote:Then shut the fuck up already. You have got to be the biggest fuck nut on this board, and your posts in this whole thread prove it.
WHAT over riding evidence?!? The only evidence higher then my novel quote is the movie. Guess what you fucktard cockmonkey? It don't say shit to the contrary. What the hell is logic of opinion anyways? Everyone's fucking saying it so logically I'm wrong?

I don't get it? Everyone's insisting that he just had to use the Force in order to deflect those bolts. Do they surround thier lightsabre's when they deflect bolts with the Force? We've seen evidence of materials in the Star Wars universe being quite resiliant and this is just another case.
We've never seen CLOTH fucking DEFLECT blaster shots.

Or are you just being intentionally dense to propagate an argument which is on the level of Darkstar ignorance of Vader's fucking spine?

You keep screaming "It's the glove!!!!" yet, when the very fucking Novel doesn't go anymore then the vauge "Protected" you leap to the conclusion of the glove alone, provide no supporting evidence and then retort "How can it be the Force?"

And the lightsaber is a bullshit analogy and you know it or are just being a dick so you don't have to admit you're keep spouting this shit to not go "oops."
First of all, you keep claiming 'CLOTH' while I'm claiming 'PROTECTED'. I'm supported, your not. Big difference. Not only are you saying it's 'cloth' your saying we've never seen 'cloth' deflect bolts. However, if it is as your saying, 'cloth' then it's deflecting the bolts on screen, and in the novel.

I love how you throw back the 'It's the glove' and say I don't have any supporting evidence. Hello?!? Like I've explained, and if you would please read the posts, the movie shows Vader absorbing and/or deflecting blaster bolts. Novel states Vader deflecting blaster bolts. Funny, that's what supports my argument. The two highest forms of canon. You on the other hand, have nothing supporting your argument of the glove merely being 'cloth' nor anything that states he used the Force to deflect the bolts.

Hmm, Cal 2, Ghost 0. Concession (drum roll please) accepted.

Ah okay you fucking dipshit.

Protected doesn't mean the FABRIC.

Where have you proven this is the cloth? Where in the entire goddamn fucking Original trilogy, EU, Prequel have they shown C-L-O-T-H doing this.

NEVER. You are fucking relying on the novel saying protected but if put under any scrunity of further evidence you have nothing so you keep going back to the only thing you have.

That you fucking retard, is why you are just literally yabbering. So produce fucking evidence you fucking dipshit, because this is no different then fucking retarded trekkies who can't get it through their heads their evidence is not evidence at all.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-04-09 08:19am

Spanky:

Maybe there's some rule that you can only block Force Lighting with your arms. In any case, Vader's got his arm's full carrying Palpy over the edge, and the lightning isn't zapping him in the arms (unless I'm forgetting the exact way the scene played out, which is possible).

Ghost Rider, not to nitpick, but while you're correct we never see cloth deflecting blaster bolts in other situations in the movies (I can't speak for all of the EU since I've only read a fraction of the sources out there), there is the (IIRC) example of the AOTC Visual Dictionary apparently identifying Dooku's clothing as blaster/saber resistant (or 'proof').

I thought that blaster bolts had kinetic energy, which made me think the "blaster proof cloak" idea was silly, but there you go. Unless we see it contradicted...

It's a weak argument because I don't have the book to provide the exact quotation, and thus it's hearsay, but if somebody has it, that'd satisfy my curiosity.

Edit: My local library MIGHT have the Visual Dictionary, so I might stop and see if I can find it there today! I know they have the ICS and some other prequel related books.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-09 08:21am

I forgot RESITANT equals DEFLECTION.

Are you going to provide something beyond nitpicking?

And yes, I did know this...doesn't mean Dooku's cloak was ever DEFLECTING shots

Fucking idiot.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-04-09 08:32am

Ghost Rider wrote:I forgot RESITANT equals DEFLECTION.

It doesn't, but who knows what would happen. Blaster shots bounce off lots of things, and other things they just explode on. How would we predict it either way? There's nitpick number two, I hope you enjoyed it.

Are you going to provide something beyond nitpicking?

I'm going to try that today, in fact (unless somebody beats me to it).

And yes, I did know this...doesn't mean Dooku's cloak was ever DEFLECTING shots

Good. We never saw it onscreen, but perhaps it was capable? I don't know, but I'm going to try to find out!

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-09 08:36am

Kurgan wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:I forgot RESITANT equals DEFLECTION.
It doesn't, but who knows what would happen. Blaster shots bounce off lots of things, and other things they just explode on. How would we predict it either way? There's nitpick number two, I hope you enjoyed it.

Thank you for proving you're a fucking idiot.

Kurgan wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Are you going to provide something beyond nitpicking?
I'm going to try that today, in fact (unless somebody beats me to it).

See above.

Kurgan wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:And yes, I did know this...doesn't mean Dooku's cloak was ever DEFLECTING shots
Good. We never saw it onscreen, but perhaps it was capable? I don't know, but I'm going to try to find out!

You know...even a fucking ten year old grasps the difference between deflection and resistant.

Guess that must mean bullet resistant clothing deflects them.

Fucking idiot.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-04-09 08:44am

Kurgan wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:I forgot RESITANT equals DEFLECTION.
It doesn't, but who knows what would happen. Blaster shots bounce off lots of things,

Other than lightsabre blades and that one example of a bolt bouncing off the ground under the Gungan theatre shield, the only times I can think of bolts bouncing of of something is the DS1 trash compactor walls because they were magnetically shielded.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2005-04-09 08:52am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:I forgot RESITANT equals DEFLECTION.
It doesn't, but who knows what would happen. Blaster shots bounce off lots of things,
Other than lightsabre blades and that one example of a bolt bouncing off the ground under the Gungan theatre shield, the only times I can think of bolts bouncing of of something is the DS1 trash compactor walls because they were magnetically shielded.

Didn't they bounce off the Gungan "personal shields"?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-04-09 08:53am

Yeah, they did, thanks.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-04-09 12:16pm

We see shots bounce off the Falcon's hull (IIRC), Droideka shields and Anakin's shielded N-1 Fighter. There may be other examples, but I'd have to watch all the movies again.

I checked the library and I had to put the AOTC VD on hold (it's checked out currently). Maybe in a few days... ; p

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-04-09 12:29pm

Kurgan wrote:We see shots bounce off the Falcon's hull (IIRC),

Um, I don't think we do.

Droideka shields and Anakin's shielded N-1 Fighter.

Both SHIELDED examples. Did you check, or are you recalling from memory?

Eitherway, they don't apply.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-04-09 07:03pm

Recalling from memory.

I'm not implying that Vader must have a person shield in use to explain the deflection, but the examples do show different bolt behavior. Other than those examples, we have shielded vehicles (and the AT-AT's if you consider them shielded or some kind of 'activated' armor, since they do call it armor in dialouge) simply "absorbing" bolts (simply whiteing out, or the so-called "flak burst effect").

Some scenes to double check...

Falcon at Docking Bay 94

Falcon on Bespin platform

------ Could be wrong about those though. This one I'm more sure of:

Greedo's shot in the Cantina.

Another scene I'd like to re-check would be the shoot outs in the Naboo palace.

Btw, I was noticing the scenes where the Tusken Raiders are shooting at the Pod Racers in TPM, I didn't realize you can actually see blaster bolts (for the longest time I assumed they were using slug throwers in that scene!). Something a bit odd about that scene, I'll have to check it again, but I'm too tired atm.