That's not John...

[Frank Hipper]

Jesus looks pretty feminine too. I guess it depends on whether you interpret that dark spot under his chin as a shadow or a beard.

All the gay talk from other posts in this thread forces me to tell everyone that Leonardo Da Vinci was gay, so it doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to see why he could be painting his men as prettily as possible, yes?

Looking through Leonardo's sketches and paintings, it would appear he favored a more masculine ideal in his personal tastes, but he evidently liked 'em young, too; hence the pretty John and Jesus.

[wolveraptor]

Why is it so hard for people to swallow that Christ may have been married, and may even have had kids? It doesn't invalidate him in any respects. Shoot, to go straight from the bible you're told to "Be fruitful and multiply."

Hell, he could be interpreted as gay if he refused Mary Magdelene. I mean, seriously, saying no to Monica Bellucci?

Well, the bible does say he loved one of his apostles and apparently bible experts think it was John. The irony, the saviour of the largest religion on Earth could've been gay. Man, if that were ever confirmed, I would piss myself from laughing so hard.

The real delight is imagining the thunderstruck expression of every Christian if the next Pope got up and said, "Well guys, that settles it. Jesus was a homo."

[Darth Servo]

The real question is how believable is the idea of Jesus and Mary M. being married and having children/

Its certainly infinitely more reasonable than a cup that grants immortality to the one who drinks from it.

[Nick Lancaster]

The real question is how believable is the idea of Jesus and Mary M. being married and having children/

While believable if you are considering Jesus as both divine and human, the Fundies would dispute each and every descendant, even if there was some secret list. Heck, if the secret list were in the keeping of the Vatican, it'd only be viewed as some kind of Catholic conspiracy.

This, of course, assumes that the offspring of Jesus and Mary would be anything other than mortal; though Christ did, indeed, work miracles, the essence of the story is He 'became human' in order to take up our sins, etc. The Fundies are not prepared to have anything diverge from their accepted dogma in the least, therefore, Jesus did not know Mary in the carnal sense.

Its certainly infinitely more reasonable than a cup that grants immortality to the one who drinks from it.

Or the Virgin Birth, Pentecost, Ascension, Assumption (of Mary), and so on ...?

I have to admit to being conflicted; my upbringing is Catholic, yet I am appalled at the uses to which Christ's name is being put. God did not give me a brain and a facility at math and language ... so that I could spin lies about His Creation.

[Avalon616]

What I find interesting is all the attacks on the Da Vinci code now, which clearly states it's a fictional novel that takes ideas from historians, but not nearly as many attacks on the historical pieces that inspired Dan Brown. It's like they don't want to mention them as much, they're afraid they might get popular too!

Fundie Critic: "Dan Brown made everything up! He has no credence, nothing substanciates his claims!" ... meanwhile *hides everything by Michael Baigent under his bed*

Has anyone read anything by Laurence Gardner yet? I mean mostly his book The Illustrated Bloodline of the Holy Grail. His geneological work astounds me... but then again, I focus in myth, and know crap about geneology.

[Darth Yoshi]

Well, the bible does say he loved one of his apostles and apparently bible experts think it was John. The irony, the saviour of the largest religion on Earth could've been gay. Man, if that were ever confirmed, I would piss myself from laughing so hard.

If that ever happened, I would immediately convert. No lie.

[Darth Servo]

Well, the bible does say he loved one of his apostles and apparently bible experts think it was John. The irony, the saviour of the largest religion on Earth could've been gay. Man, if that were ever confirmed, I would piss myself from laughing so hard.

And the only one who ever talks that way (the disciple whom Jesus loved) was John himself.

[Durandal]

The thing is that, if we assume that figure to have been Mary Magdeline, then that only leaves 11 apostles. Who was left out and why? Granted, that figure does look very feminine (and no, sorry, that "It's an adolescent Peter" explanation doesn't fly; that looks like a chick).

[Darth Servo]

The thing is that, if we assume that figure to have been Mary Magdeline, then that only leaves 11 apostles. Who was left out and why?

Judas Iscariot and he's already left to get the 30 pieces of silver.

[Jason von Evil]

The thing is that, if we assume that figure to have been Mary Magdeline, then that only leaves 11 apostles. Who was left out and why? Granted, that figure does look very feminine (and no, sorry, that "It's an adolescent Peter" explanation doesn't fly; that looks like a chick).

You mean John. Peter's the guy giving the evil eye to Mary/John.

[Gandalf]

I know that it is considered a minor sin for a rabbi not to be married. As for the kids thing... well, the Talmud states that married couples have to have a certain minimal amount of sex every month or the marriage can be invalidated. (Sex is something that the husband must provide for the wife, along with food and shelter.) Also, sex (between husband and wife) on the sabbath is a mitzvah, a commandment.

So, either Jesus wasn't married yet or the Gospels left out all the good parts of his story.

Jesus was a Rabbi?

To use an analogy, I thought he was more like Darth Vader within the Empire. No official position but still a lot of influence.

[Avalon616]

Jesus was a Rabbi?

To use an analogy, I thought he was more like Darth Vader within the Empire. No official position but still a lot of influence.

Nope, Jesus was a Rabbi, or at least there is a huge amount of historical evidence to support this.

There is also a large body of evidence to support the idea that he was king, decended from the line of David, possibly married into the line of Benjamin (Mary of Magdala was actually a Queen/Princess), and he was using the support of the Essenes, the Nazoreans, and the Zealots to ascend him to the throne.

You can understand why this might be left out of history, if Jesus was not only a man, but his aims were political in nature, not spiritual.

[Shroom Man 777]

Wait, that's supposed to be a man? I always thought the person next to Jesus was a lady.

Yeah, me too. In my old school, there was a Last Supper painting right above the entrance to the canteen. I always thought that chick was Jesus' mom...

[Jason von Evil]

To use an analogy, I thought he was more like Darth Vader within the Empire. No official position but still a lot of influence.

Darth Jesus?

The bible does say in one passage that Jesus was of the House of David, which would put him in line to be King.

[Nick Lancaster]

The bible does say in one passage that Jesus was of the House of David, which would put him in line to be King.

Oy. A genealogy fight would be ugly. Jesus could be 1/64th of the House of David, and he might even be 'in line to be King' ... but that doesn't mean he had anything more than a fool's chance to get there.

[Darth Servo]

The bible does say in one passage that Jesus was of the House of David, which would put him in line to be King.

Given the ammount of intermarrying that would have gone on, who ISN'T in that line?

BTW, the two geneaologies in Matt and Luke don't even match.

[Elheru Aran]

The bible does say in one passage that Jesus was of the House of David, which would put him in line to be King.

Given the ammount of intermarrying that would have gone on, who ISN'T in that line?

BTW, the two geneaologies in Matt and Luke don't even match.

One's of his mother, the other's of his father. His father is from the line that split into the royal family of Judea, the other's the royal family of Israel. IIRC. However, this gives some slight rationale for the virgin birth-- without Joseph's genes, he would be purely divine and of the *legitimate* kingdom of Israel.

[Rye]

To use an analogy, I thought he was more like Darth Vader within the Empire. No official position but still a lot of influence.

Darth Jesus?

The bible does say in one passage that Jesus was of the House of David, which would put him in line to be King.

The bible says he's from 2 different lines, you need to be of the line of Solomon too in order to sit on the throne of David (1 Chron 28:5-7), Solomon only exists in one of his geneaologies (matthew 1). The trouble is, that with matthew 1, it also lists Jechonias (mat 1:11) who has a cursed bloodline that may never sit on the throne of david (Jer 22:30).

The other geneaology doesn't have Jechonias in it, but it has has the bloodline going through Nathan, not Solomon, (luke 3:31) so he's likewise disqualified. These geneaologies are pretty funny because they don't agree on Joseph's father, and have Jesus being cursed. Though this may have been a theological theme; Jesus is cursed like man is cursed, and undoes the curse, or something.

Plus it's not like either are certifiably accurate in any shape or form. I could write a geneaology for me being the davidic king, and either geneaology could be as manufactured.

One's of his mother, the other's of his father.

Is it fuck. They're both for Joseph. At no point is a woman's geneaology ever given, and it mentions Joseph and goes through his [different] father back to David. Which is irrelevant since it's not like he could inherit the kingdom through a female anyway, plus he was supposed to be cursed.

[Darth Servo]

One's of his mother, the other's of his father. His father is from the line that split into the royal family of Judea, the other's the royal family of Israel. IIRC. However, this gives some slight rationale for the virgin birth-- without Joseph's genes, he would be purely divine and of the *legitimate* kingdom of Israel.

Yes that the standard apologist excuse. The problem is which one is which. They BOTH claim to go through Joseph even though according to scripture, Joseph was not actually genetically related to Jesus.

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli

They can't even agree on who Joseph's father was!

[wolveraptor]

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ

And so we find another gay couple in Biblical literature: the fathers of Jesus, Heli and Joseph.

[UCBooties]

Well, to the question of what happened at the last supper, scholars have recently uncovered this bit of evidence. Who knew?