Species 8472

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: Who said they wouldnt run from a few ISD's if they were taking them out left, right and center??? I am simply showing that they wont run off if someone puts a dent in one of their ships which is what warsies always claim.

Its funny that you paint the pro trek debators in absolutes when in truth its the warsies dealing in them here - I havent seen anyone claim 8472 will send ship after ship to their deaths in fact we have shown they would gather intel and come up with a plan rather than the suicide you would have commited in their situation (from their POV).

Actually, Darkling, you repeatedly have claimed just that. That they will somehow use fluidic space to outrun hyperdrive(No numbers mentality), and smash up worlds on the Rim. First engagement will be something like nine Bioships arriving, getting ripped apart by the heavy guns of an ISD, and war over because they realize they are fucked.

[TheDarkling]

Only if they lacked brains...personally the Empire would run , investigate with the full extent of the resources at the time, and find out how to kill the thing.

No strategic reason to let such a powerful enemy go unnoticed and remain a mystery.

Thats exactly what 8472 did - Im glad we agree this was the clever thing to do.

SirNitram: No I never said they could out run hyperdrive but they have galaxy spaning speed (within a useful time frame) and this form of travel is complete stealth (since they arent in our(or more correctly SW's) dimension) therefore 8472 can pick and choose targets and are safe from being hit in return - this however has nothing to do with the issue of wether or not 8472 are cowards.

MOO: You are saying they have displayed cowardice when they havent therefore I refute it however im not saying they will charge into the mouth of death or even that they arent cowards siply that you have nothing to indicate they are cowards.

When did 8472 have a spy acting as a crew member on Voyager? I dont recall when this happened care to refresh my memory.

If you refer to Kess its clear their mind reading isnt upto scratch since it has been shown they didnt know basic things about Voyagers situation.

You keep saying shadow Voyager - why? its only going to annoy the Feds and possibly start another war going for the convert mission into Fed space was a good choice however not shadowing Voyager doesnt indicate cowardice and since their solution was easily good enough to solve their problem (lack of Intel) it doesnt indicate stupidity either.

[Alyeska]

SirNitram: Who said they wouldnt run from a few ISD's if they were taking them out left, right and center??? I am simply showing that they wont run off if someone puts a dent in one of their ships which is what warsies always claim.

Its funny that you paint the pro trek debators in absolutes when in truth its the warsies dealing in them here - I havent seen anyone claim 8472 will send ship after ship to their deaths in fact we have shown they would gather intel and come up with a plan rather than the suicide you would have commited in their situation (from their POV).

Actually, Darkling, you repeatedly have claimed just that. That they will somehow use fluidic space to outrun hyperdrive(No numbers mentality), and smash up worlds on the Rim. First engagement will be something like nine Bioships arriving, getting ripped apart by the heavy guns of an ISD, and war over because they realize they are fucked.

Do you even know that this would happen to the S8472 ships? We never saw a single one killed by traditional weaponry. On the other hand we saw a single S8472 ship mow through 15 Borg cubes without any effort.

[TheDarkling]

Frankly the Imps would take a beating from 8472 even if they can easily wreck 8472 ships, they cant station an ISD everywhere in fact at the height of their power they had 25,000 ISDs? to cover 50 million worlds (systems?) 8472 are going to waste planet after planet until the imperial Navy can put a fleet big enough to oppose them around every world.

Heres a thought, 8472 open up their portal inside a planetary atmosphere - even Corscant with its always on shields couldnt survive that (although the shields do have permament windows for traffic flow meaning 8472 could just use those).

Before you tell me every important world has ships for defense - the main droid producing planet had none and its defense were well behind the times - they loss of that world wouldnt help the imperials any.

It isnt about if an ISD can take on a bioship - its about how many planets will be smashed before we find out.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Frankly the Imps would take a beating from 8472 even if they can easily wreck 8472 ships, they cant station an ISD everywhere in fact at the height of their power they had 25,000 ISDs? to cover 50 million worlds (systems?) 8472 are going to waste planet after planet until the imperial Navy can put a fleet big enough to oppose them around every world.

Heres a thought, 8472 open up their portal inside a planetary atmosphere - even Corscant with its always on shields couldnt survive that (although the shields do have permament windows for traffic flow meaning 8472 could just use those).

Before you tell me every important world has ships for defense - the main droid producing planet had none and its defense were well behind the times - they loss of that world wouldnt help the imperials any.

It isnt about if an ISD can take on a bioship - its about how many planets will be smashed before we find out.

Any planet not defended would be unimportant in war, so why would S8472 just go around destroying planets that just kill innocent civilians or not even that, just slag uninhabited planets, what would be the point? And ISDs are NOT the only ships the Empire has. Even support craft could slag bioships, escpecially the ones that are made to take now large numbers of starfighters. The outer rim would be devestated(except those defended by the Hutts and the pirates and what not) but, the outer rim is not important to the empire.

[Alyeska]

Frankly the Imps would take a beating from 8472 even if they can easily wreck 8472 ships, they cant station an ISD everywhere in fact at the height of their power they had 25,000 ISDs? to cover 50 million worlds (systems?) 8472 are going to waste planet after planet until the imperial Navy can put a fleet big enough to oppose them around every world.

Heres a thought, 8472 open up their portal inside a planetary atmosphere - even Corscant with its always on shields couldnt survive that (although the shields do have permament windows for traffic flow meaning 8472 could just use those).

Before you tell me every important world has ships for defense - the main droid producing planet had none and its defense were well behind the times - they loss of that world wouldnt help the imperials any.

It isnt about if an ISD can take on a bioship - its about how many planets will be smashed before we find out.

Any planet not defended would be unimportant in war, so why would S8472 just go around destroying planets that just kill innocent civilians or not even that, just slag uninhabited planets, what would be the point? And ISDs are NOT the only ships the Empire has. Even support craft could slag bioships, escpecially the ones that are made to take now large numbers of starfighters. The outer rim would be devestated(except those defended by the Hutts and the pirates and what not) but, the outer rim is not important to the empire.

Care to give firepower figures on how much it takes to defeat a S8472 ship? Oh, wait, you don't have ANY.

[TheDarkling]

anarchistbunny: The most importnat droid production world in the galaxy had NO ships protecting it, therefore no droid production planets are likely to be deemed worthy of protection - say good bye droids and by extention say goodbye to a stable economy.

You could also prove to me that the Imps could respond fast enough to 8472 attack (I believe the 50 Million systems are inhabitated by the way) since it takes under a minute to appear, slag a world and get gone.

8472 also displayed the tactic of a feint to draw off enemy forces while the PK group appears and goes to work.

The smaller ships the Imps have get very weak (most things below Star Destroyers and their imediate design lineage) - some have even been said to be sub Ent -D power on this board by warsies so I think a bioship should be ok against those.

[Darth Balls]

Wow, Beef sure doesnt have a clue. Now he's just making crap up. What a blind moron.

[starfury]

whose is beef anyway

[Darth Balls]

He's the main Star Trek supporter in this thread:
http://forums.gamegossip.com/showthread ... adid=29865

[spideycw]

mmm after actually taking the time to read the argument i must conclude that beef is a complete idiot who will not listen to blatant reason laid out right in front of him. i personally likes the way he ignores all your points and then states something that is clearly explained in your argument. ahhhh trekkies at work

[Typhonis 1]

hmmmph yep Ewoks fighting in a forest where they outnumber the Troopers 2000 to a hundred plus the rebel force .they also have the advantage of not being considered a viable threat and using human wave attacks

[SirNitram]

Frankly the Imps would take a beating from 8472 even if they can easily wreck 8472 ships, they cant station an ISD everywhere in fact at the height of their power they had 25,000 ISDs? to cover 50 million worlds (systems?) 8472 are going to waste planet after planet until the imperial Navy can put a fleet big enough to oppose them around every world.

Heres a thought, 8472 open up their portal inside a planetary atmosphere - even Corscant with its always on shields couldnt survive that (although the shields do have permament windows for traffic flow meaning 8472 could just use those).

Before you tell me every important world has ships for defense - the main droid producing planet had none and its defense were well behind the times - they loss of that world wouldnt help the imperials any.

It isnt about if an ISD can take on a bioship - its about how many planets will be smashed before we find out.

Oy, I need to stop reading SAMAS posts and then looking at you. It's all too similar.

1) Prove they can open portals in atmospheres for their ships. We never see this onscreen.

2) Prove they can open portals anywhere. We only see them do so, IIRC, in the Northwest Passage.

3) You're an idiot. Coruscant's shields do not have permenant holes: They open as necessary. Read the books.

4) You are aware that the Imperial era is militarized and the Republic era is not, right?

[Alyeska]

2) Prove they can open portals anywhere. We only see them do so, IIRC, in the Northwest Passage.

They opened a portal near the Borg planet they destroyed.

3) You're an idiot. Coruscant's shields do not have permenant holes: They open as necessary. Read the books.

I do believe you are the idiot for flaming him for no reason. As already demonstrated, you didn't know everything, how can you expect him to as well?

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: I realise the holes arent permament as in they cant be closed simply that they are left open due to the large amount of traffic - its like this you can close the hole in the shield but leave the hole there, in Shadows of the Empire they get out without having to wait for a shield to open they simply head along the traffic lane, this does conflict with the X wings books (the first one at least) because then coruscant raises and lowers shields for each ship (abit silly considering the traffic volume) the only conclusion I can come to is that after the emperors death Coruscant was wrapped up tight to prevent a frontal assault from one of the warlords or the rebellion - something that was a non-issue pre ROTJ.

Im not certain off course maybe in SHadows they simply caught the planetary defense network at shift change (or a misrembered - correct me if im wrong).

1)Prove they can open portals in an atmosphere? I cant but why would it be exclusive to space, im interested in hearing a theory as to why it would be (no Im not asking you to prove it cant happen just ask for a reason why it wouldnt).

2.We see them open one up around a Borg planet.
We see a member of 8472 attempt to open a portal 10,000 LY outside of the northwest passage.
Voyagers crew attempt the same.
Seven refuses to help but never mentions it cant be done.
8472 have scattered at least a dozen space stations across the delta quadrant.
We know that 8472 has holdings in the beta quadrant (Ref Unimatrix zero).
I could call you an idiot but I will refrain since not watching Voyager is understandable.

3.Explained above - again Im sorry if I misremember its mainly due to the incident in Shadows (coming out not going in - going in they hitch hike (to get past the ships not the shield though, which isnt even mentioned) but coming out they just bolt if I recall correctly) and then later we have actual traffic jams during the NR period (Star by Star I think).

4.Yes - whats this in reference to?

[SirNitram]

2) Prove they can open portals anywhere. We only see them do so, IIRC, in the Northwest Passage.

They opened a portal near the Borg planet they destroyed.

Oh, so in high orbit is now in atmosphere?

3) You're an idiot. Coruscant's shields do not have permenant holes: They open as necessary. Read the books.

I do believe you are the idiot for flaming him for no reason. As already demonstrated, you didn't know everything, how can you expect him to as well?

I expect him to at least read what he references. Does this offend your delicate ego?

[SirNitram]

I can't comment on Shadows.. I've not read it... But the X-wing Series and the Thrawn Trilogy indicate planetary shields are opened on a need-to-open basis. In particular, the X-wing series notes the two shield layers rotate in different directions.

As for 'Why can't they open in atmosphere', I am simply saying if we don't see the ability demonstrated, we should not assume it possible. Otherwise, why can't I assume a Hypermatter reactor puts out enough high-energy rads to slay a Bioship simply by being in the same system? As for what's different, the gravity field may fux0r the mechanism.

Several portals are attempted outside of hte Passage, I see. But none worked? Then I put forth the theory that for some reason, only the Passage can support such rifts. There is no reason to assume otherwise, all evidence points to them having to enter in that single region and spread out on their Warp-like drive. This handily explains their attacks in Beta Quad space, since they seem to match Borg ships in non-Conduit Transwarp.

As for the militarization, I assumed you meant Geonosia not having a fleet in orbit. But this is Imperial era(I'm assuming), which is far more militarized, and there are numerous references to even worthless planets holding powerful defenses.

[Ender]

1) The traffic jam in SbS is because of the huge minefield they put in place, blocking almost all routes in or out

2) There was a fleet in orbit, we see the TFB as Dooku leaves.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: Yes I know the X wing book reference (the where it says people have been fried due to lightening arcing between the shield layers) but as I have said in shadows they simply bug out which is why I assumed the reigns were tightened after ROTJ which is of no interets to us.

As for the portal attempts - the first time the member of 8472 falls into a sleep like status due to his injuries, the second time (in the same episode) Voyager is working on opening one but runs out of time - thus the attempts werent completed but every indication to the best of SF, Borg and 8472 knowledge is that it would work.

The droid planet I refer to is the one IG-88 takes control of in Tales of the Bounty Hunters - it is stated to be the most important droid production facility in the empire and it has no fleet and ancient defenses, if such a choice target is left without a fleet what else is?

Ender: Yes I know the traffic jam was due to the mine field my point was the sheer volume of traffic (although this was probably less in the Imperial days).

[Alyeska]

2) Prove they can open portals anywhere. We only see them do so, IIRC, in the Northwest Passage.

They opened a portal near the Borg planet they destroyed.

Oh, so in high orbit is now in atmosphere?

Your question did not reference high orbit. Your statement indicated they could not open portals beyond the "Northwest Pasage". I pointed out that was incorrect.

[bozman]

You know what, this conversation is really not even worth having because Species 8472 do not deserve to be validated by our discucssing them. They were created by the moronic Voyager writers to replace the Borg as being the ultimate bad guys right? Well, you know what? I like the Borg (the original Borg, not Voyager's and FC's version)! Screw Voyager for creating them. Who the hell would be afraid of a big computer graphic anyway?

Species 8472 are too lame to even talk about. I'm talking Talaxian lame here.

Have a nice day.

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: You are saying they have displayed cowardice when they havent therefore I refute it however im not saying they will charge into the mouth of death or even that they arent cowards siply that you have nothing to indicate they are cowards.

When did 8472 have a spy acting as a crew member on Voyager? I dont recall when this happened care to refresh my memory.

If you refer to Kess its clear their mind reading isnt upto scratch since it has been shown they didnt know basic things about Voyagers situation.

You keep saying shadow Voyager - why? its only going to annoy the Feds and possibly start another war going for the convert mission into Fed space was a good choice however not shadowing Voyager doesnt indicate cowardice and since their solution was easily good enough to solve their problem (lack of Intel) it doesnt indicate stupidity either.

Let me get this straight, you think that shadowing ships is worthless as a method of gaining information, go on to say that telepathy does not provide important information about the LOCATION OF A SHIP (meaning that shadowing a ship is necessary, even if telepathy works for everything else), AND you tell me that shadowing VOY might start a war AFTER VOYAGER EXCHANGED WEAPONS FIRE WITH SPECIES-8472, AND DESTROYED SOME OF ITS SHIPS! Jesus CHRIST, where are you getting this?

Incidentally, I also said that Species-8472 is EITHER cowardly or stupid or both. There is ample evidence to conclude that such is the case, from the on screen evidence.

[Master of Ossus]

They opened a portal near the Borg planet they destroyed.

Oh, so in high orbit is now in atmosphere?

Your question did not reference high orbit. Your statement indicated they could not open portals beyond the "Northwest Pasage". I pointed out that was incorrect.

So "near the Borg planet they destroyed"=anywhere, to you?

[TheDarkling]

MOO: If there is ample evidence shouldnt yuo be able to put some forward .

I think we are getting confused here - Im talking about shadowing after 8472 pull out not during the hot period.

The telepathy provides intel on ship location???? yeah if you have unlimited range telepathy or you are standing next to the ship

Answer me a simple question - Is infiltrating Earth likely to gather more intel that shadowing Voyager?

As for this

So "near the Borg planet they destroyed"=anywhere, to you?

He was refering to the fact that SirNitram said we hadnt seen a portal open outside of the northwest passage (despite the fact that I have mentioned it in 3 or 4 of these threads in which Sirnitram was involved in at least the first one).

Just put forward a case for their cowardice and/or their stupidity in one post because so far you havent put forward a point (that I have seen) that wasnt easily explained without your stretching of other events.

[Alyeska]

So "near the Borg planet they destroyed"=anywhere, to you?

Reread what I stated. I never made such claim. What it does indicate is that S8472 can open such portals with relative ease. We do not know how close to gravity centers or large power sources (stars) they can appear, but their distance from the Borg Planet indicates they can exit relatively close to planets.