Does anyone else but me... (slight rant)

[The Silence and I]

Well if this is a sort of rant thread then yes the droid suckyness (TM) really bothers me.

My suspension of disbelief is strained every time I see the droids fight: Supposedly this is a civilization utilizing technology many millennia beyond what we have today. A society that by all rights should have the ability to easily store teraflop computer systems in a piece of paper and that has been programming droids for millennia. When I see the droids in action I see appalling reaction times and even worse accuracy of fire. I find this inexcusable in light of the technology; even a droid with zero personality programming (and unlikely to turn against owners) should have access to dirt cheap computer systems that will fit within its electronic eye and still have the power needed to calculate rapid, precise, fluid movement and accuracy no human hope to achieve in time frames smaller than we can percieve.

No combat droid should be out shot by any human, no combat droid should stand around dumbly for several seconds before firing paltry shots (perhaps they are so stupid they have trouble IDing targets?); even if their creativity and personality were zero the innate advantages they *should* have would easily balance the playing field in most engagements. Particularly large ones like in AOTC.

Instead it appears the droids utilize computer systems less powerful than modern supercomputers, programming that is significantly subpar in the SW world and are fragile to boot. I mean, for the piss poor apparent computer performance to be achieved I expect the Nemodians may have had to dig up schematics for anchient processors--just imagine what the slowest chip we will have in 200 years might be. MHz processors would be HARD to come by, even as micro chips!

[Cal Wright]

I was completely unaware that Jedi could mindtrick droids. Is this stated anywhere else in the canon?

I'm not sure. However, you can clearly see the droid hesitating over the word, pondering over it, and then realizing it is being tricked. IIRC it went something like "Coruscant .... does not compute ... YOU ARE UNDER ARREST!"

Somehow, I doubt even a dumb SW droid would take that long to ponder such a sentence. It'd be tough to believe Qui-Gon would dare enter a restricted area unless he thought his tricks could help him cover up.

Christ, I must be the only person in the world to think that droid was being deliberately sarcastic.

I'm an ambassador for the Republic. I'm taking these people to Coruscant.

"Oh really? Where are you taking them, again?"

Coruscant.

"Well now, let me just check my databank... hmm Coruscant, did you say? That does not compute YOU'RE UNDER ARREST, DUMBFUCK."

No. You're not alone on that one. I always assumed he was being a smart ass in the way he acted, and the way he spoke.

The line was something like
"Coruscant?...That doesn't compute...I know, your under arrest."

[Spanky The Dolphin]

It helps when you can actually remember how the scene goes. The droid was clearly confused, with no amount of sarcasm, which is a complete load of crap...

[NecronLord]

Yes. I'm not saying B1s aren't crap. They are. They simply shouldn't be, even a cost-cut battle droid should be far superior to them by rights.

[Cal Wright]

It helps when you can actually remember how the scene goes. The droid was clearly confused, with no amount of sarcasm, which is a complete load of crap...

I remember how the fucking scene goes you prick. I just went and rewatched it several times to notice the effects. Funny thing is, he acts just like I do when I'm fucking around with someone.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Funny, becauase he wasn't, The droid was truly confused while it checked for the appropriate data.

[Stofsk]

What? This was in the novelisation or something? Because it is not implicit in the scene.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

It is obviously implicit.

[Stofsk]

Then how exactly did Cal and I reach a different interpretation?

[EDIT] I was serious about the novelisation. Is this scene in there or not? I haven't read the fucking thing.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I don't know, maybe both of you are insane. Because to me the droid's confusion is plain as day.

And I don't have the novelisation, so someone else will have to look it up.

[Vympel]

I always took it as sarcasm. I say things like that all the time.

There's no indicator as to what the droid was emoting in the script, however. So it's up to the novelization or nothing.

[Ghost Rider]

Spanky instead of being a prick...maybe you could point out the passage, because saying it's implicit without REASON is no different then going "My opinion."

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Spanky instead of being a prick...maybe you could point out the passage, because saying it's implicit without REASON is no different then going "My opinion."

I don't have the book.

[Ghost Rider]

Spanky instead of being a prick...maybe you could point out the passage, because saying it's implicit without REASON is no different then going "My opinion."

I don't have the book.

Then you should get it somehow, quote the passage, because this no different then saying Lady Jessica in Dune was fucking with Paul and wanting to fuck his bones, because it may be implied.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Fine, I'll see if I can get it from either the University Main Library or the Iowa City Library today...

[GeneralTacticus]

The novelisation doesn't include that particular dialogue at all;

As Qui-Gon led the rest of the group toward the spaceship ramp, a battle droid stepped in front of him. "Where are you going?" it demanded.

Qui-Gon raised his eyebrows. "I'm ambassador for the Supreme Chancellor," he replied in a conversational tone," "and I'm taking these people to Coruscant."

"You're under arrest." the droid said.

[Gunhead]

I still don't see why the battledroids should be superior to the clones.

Let's see...vision+spotting.. IR well, we can even today produce clothing that disrupts IR signature , and unless IR in SW is somehow different from ours, I'd say it's not that usefull for either side.

Radar/lidar/"sensors"/etc. Now this where it get's tricky. Once again I'm not that convinced either side can claim advantage on this one. SW sensor tech is pretty advanced so both could employ these as built in features.
Using active sensors also gives you away pretty quickly so even these would be somewhat limited.

Eyeball MkI/droidvision/other senses. Well, eyeball is a good sensor, specially if genetically enhanced+clone armor. I don't recall any instances of droids having superior eyesight. Hearing, well clone armor should put them to par with droids.

Point: Droids didn't see Obi-Wan+Qui-Gon in TPM, when they were in the room full of gas.Could have been some jedi whatnot or B1's don't have IR/Thermal or the gas blocks them.

Strenght/endurance Here's where the droids should be better, but in most cases it shouldn't matter. In a prolonged firefight it would matter. The droids need maintanence but how much an how often is the question. I assume the clones need to rest at times.


C&C Overall I think this one goes to the clones. They are able and even required to make independent decisions while the droids are led from the top. In communication ability I'd say there's little or no difference.

As a final note. Superior tactics wins fights. Uber reflexes mean jack if the other guy gets the drop on you, because not matter how fast you are, you're already too late when you start to react.

-Gunhead

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I never said they were ALL purposely sarcastic; just that Qui-gon happened to encounter a sarcastic battle droid. Nor did I say it was programmed for sarcasm. Incidentally how does a mindtrick work on something without a mind? I've never heard of mind-influencing powers being employed against any droids before; indeed, I was given to believe that droids are somehow immune to such things.

Don't get too proud about our mind, which is really our brain, which is really a form of organic computer, which is a bunch of electrical impulses ... just like a computer. Alternatively, you can buy IP's idea of Qui-Gon messing with the circuits in a more physical way.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Radar/lidar/"sensors"/etc. Now this where it get's tricky. Once again I'm not that convinced either side can claim advantage on this one. SW sensor tech is pretty advanced so both could employ these as built in features. Using active sensors also gives you away pretty quickly so even these would be somewhat limited.

But the droid would have the advantage in sensor integration, whether passive or active. Humans look at a converter at an image that's un-natural to them. It is the difference between your mother language and one you have to think about.

Point: Droids didn't see Obi-Wan+Qui-Gon in TPM, when they were in the room full of gas.Could have been some jedi whatnot or B1's don't have IR/Thermal or the gas blocks them.

I don't doubt they skimped on the droids and didn't give them IR. I'm saying the authors are trying to play the down.

Strenght/endurance Here's where the droids should be better, but in most cases it shouldn't matter. In a prolonged firefight it would matter. The droids need maintanence but how much an how often is the question. I assume the clones need to rest at times.

What about reflexes and aiming accuracy?

C&C Overall I think this one goes to the clones. They are able and even required to make independent decisions while the droids are led from the top. In communication ability I'd say there's little or no difference.

1) Weren't the clones dumbed down in their initiative as well?
2) The fact those guys stupidly opted to insist on making droids with little to no independent decision ability is not the issue. IN this rant thread, we complain the authors made all the droids that way.
3) A clone would never be able to communicate as fast as a droid. What sends data faster (in words) - your 56K modem or your mouth, over the telephone line? A droid can also instantly integrate a new contact onto his plot and send it up, while a clone would have to work it out manually before sending it up onto the Master Plot.

As a final note. Superior tactics wins fights. Uber reflexes mean jack if the other guy gets the drop on you, because not matter how fast you are, you're already too late when you start to react.

Unless you manage to wipe out the enemy completely with your ambush shots, after that reflexes and accuracy become very important. The droids would lose some in the first shot, but if they are properly designed, they'd take evasive action (that humans would be hard pressed to match) and fire back on computer control.

[Kurgan]

If Jedi can Mind Trick droids, then it stands to reason they can also use the Force to fool security cameras and sensors. Apparently mind tricking droids was in early scripts of TPM (so I've heard) but there you go...


Btw, that's been a common complaint about Battle Droids... why do they communicate to each other using words? Lard Biscuit theorized it was a "feature" for combined organic and droid armies... but even he admitted it seemed silly for TPM to show a Droid looking through binoculars. All these possible ways that droids could have built in advantages over organic troops, and they toss them aside to make them appear more "human." Why? They're Battle Droids!!

[Gunhead]

Radar/lidar/"sensors"/etc. Now this where it get's tricky. Once again I'm not that convinced either side can claim advantage on this one. SW sensor tech is pretty advanced so both could employ these as built in features. Using active sensors also gives you away pretty quickly so even these would be somewhat limited.

But the droid would have the advantage in sensor integration, whether passive or active. Humans look at a converter at an image that's un-natural to them. It is the difference between your mother language and one you have to think about.

I don't see a problem here. As long as the sensor info comes in a form the brain can most easily interpet , it's mostly a matter of training.
Also, your language analogy is a bit dodgy since for instance I don't have to think any more than normal when I speak, write or read english.
English is not my native language.

Point: Droids didn't see Obi-Wan+Qui-Gon in TPM, when they were in the room full of gas.Could have been some jedi whatnot or B1's don't have IR/Thermal or the gas blocks them.

I don't doubt they skimped on the droids and didn't give them IR. I'm saying the authors are trying to play the down.

From the movie those are three options. Your guess is good as mine. I do think the droids do have IR/thermal, it would be stupid to leave them out.

Strenght/endurance Here's where the droids should be better, but in most cases it shouldn't matter. In a prolonged firefight it would matter. The droids need maintanence but how much an how often is the question. I assume the clones need to rest at times.

What about reflexes and aiming accuracy?

C&C Overall I think this one goes to the clones. They are able and even required to make independent decisions while the droids are led from the top. In communication ability I'd say there's little or no difference.

1) Weren't the clones dumbed down in their initiative as well?
2) The fact those guys stupidly opted to insist on making droids with little to no independent decision ability is not the issue. IN this rant thread, we complain the authors made all the droids that way.
3) A clone would never be able to communicate as fast as a droid. What sends data faster (in words) - your 56K modem or your mouth, over the telephone line? A droid can also instantly integrate a new contact onto his plot and send it up, while a clone would have to work it out manually before sending it up onto the Master Plot.

As a final note. Superior tactics wins fights. Uber reflexes mean jack if the other guy gets the drop on you, because not matter how fast you are, you're already too late when you start to react.

Unless you manage to wipe out the enemy completely with your ambush shots, after that reflexes and accuracy become very important. The droids would lose some in the first shot, but if they are properly designed, they'd take evasive action (that humans would be hard pressed to match) and fire back on computer control.

The whole sensors/reflexes/accuracy is one package, one is lacking and the others will suffer. More info on how the droids aquire and ID targets would be nice but I don't have any.
Maybe true recognition ability is expensive or otherwise difficult to manage, so droids like C3PO are built with it since they actually need it. For B1 it is sufficient that it's told to guard person x or kill all other but x and so on.
In TPM the droids were blasting away pretty freely, even though Amidala was among them and they needed her alive.
Sure droids could be pretty accurate if they are using active sensor to determine speed, range and direction of movement. Here's the catch, doing so tells everybody with the right gear that they're there (like what the clones would have I imagine). Those sensors can be interfered with.
Now say there's some sort of optical system the droids can use to aim, then it becomes a question how well do they see, and what's their primary method of spotting things. (like IR/thermal/Technobabble/radar/etc.)

If they are given more independent thought, they'd surely be more dangerous, but even then there could be limitations to what their AI can learn and adapt to.

Good point on the communication bit. I do have to say that if you have to wing it when getting into a tight spot things aren't going well, droid or no droid. That's where training and the ability to improvise plays a big part.
The droids can communicate a bit better maybe, but the clones don't have to. If both parties stumble on each other, both sides do their thang by the book. There's just isn't time to do anything else.

Any input on how droids sense things would be greatly appreciated, since it's a big part of the picture.

-Gunhead

[Darth Wong]

Well if this is a sort of rant thread then yes the droid suckyness (TM) really bothers me.

My suspension of disbelief is strained every time I see the droids fight: Supposedly this is a civilization utilizing technology many millennia beyond what we have today. A society that by all rights should have the ability to easily store teraflop computer systems in a piece of paper and that has been programming droids for millennia. When I see the droids in action I see appalling reaction times and even worse accuracy of fire. I find this inexcusable in light of the technology; even a droid with zero personality programming (and unlikely to turn against owners) should have access to dirt cheap computer systems that will fit within its electronic eye and still have the power needed to calculate rapid, precise, fluid movement and accuracy no human hope to achieve in time frames smaller than we can percieve.

Calculating rapid movements is not the same thing as actually making them happen. That's why we need control systems, hydraulics, servomotors, etc. And in those components, if you go cheap, you get poor performance no matter what the computer in charge tells them to do. The ordinary battledroids were designed to overwhelm the opposition with sheer numbers; they were not designed for performance. There is also the question of the brain's intelligence; the battledroids are stupid, and even a person with fantastic speed of movement still has to decide what to shoot at.

[Typhonis 1]

Were the droid tanks used by the Trade Federation made by a different group?.I mean it neded at least a pilot ,commander and gunner to work so why didnt they just make a fully robotic tank?


Yes I`m a Bolo/Ogre fan

[Gunhead]

Were the droid tanks used by the Trade Federation made by a different group?.I mean it neded at least a pilot ,commander and gunner to work so why didnt they just make a fully robotic tank?


Yes I`m a Bolo/Ogre fan

I think the TF wasn't the only one using them, so it was designed to accommodate a human crew if needed.

-Gunhead

[Kurgan]

Yeah, I believe the Episode I ICS puts forth this view.. that the Trade Federation vehicles were all designed with organics in mind originally, but they could be operated by humanoid Battle droids, so that's what the Trade Federation does to save money (using existing tech rather than creating new designs that are all fully automated).

Of course then you also have the "Droid Fighters" which are purely robotical... so there's some fully automated vehicles.