Star Trek Weapons Scientists vs.Star Wars Weapons Scientists

[Castor Troy]

Which side has the better weapons scientists? For instance, compare how quickly they develope weapons technologies, which side developes better weapons and fields new areas for weapons.

Also, which group's weapons scientists would you rather have working for you, supposingly you have a space empire and are looking for weapons designers?

[Crossroads Inc.]

It depends...

I know I know, the majority of the people here are immediately going to point to the massive effectiveness and usefulness of the StarWars weapons. but the thing is that Weapon Tech is really really Old...

I know, You can say "Who needs anything else when you have something as good as TurboLasers" but the point is, StartTrek, despite its' massive over use of Treknobabble, has a bunch of aliens constantly working on new and better ways of killing things.

I think, in all honestly, the effectiveness of StarWars Turbolasers has largely led to stagnation in weapons science. But that’s just me

[Ra]

Well, remember the old adage, "you can't improve on perfection" I mean, Turbolasers are supposed to represent the pinnacle of SW weapons technology, the result of 25,000 years of weapons development. That's fucking impressive in my book. Trek and phasers? About 200 years. Meh.
- Ra

[Lancer]

The Galactic Empire is pretty stagnant when it comes to weapons tech, but they have a significant lead, so they can get away with it.

Imagine if you had a power that delevoped technology at the rate of the Federation (only they remember at least half of the wonders they cook up out in the field), but with the established tech base of the GE...

[Darth Wong]

Excuse me? When the second Death Star was blown up, they got fed up with the whole idea and started developing the Galaxy Gun, which was blowing up planets from 50,000 light years away only a few years later.

[Castor Troy]

True, but keep in mind of the rate of improvement on the Trek side. My "wing" at this is that the Star Wars groups are superior in terms of superweapons, but for conventional arms (in thise case, turbolasers and phasers) I'm not quite sure who improves the quickest in terms of firepower, range, etc..

Speaking of Star Wars superweapons, have they developed bioweapons? If so, how deadly are they?

[Techno_Union]

True, but keep in mind of the rate of improvement on the Trek side. My "wing" at this is that the Star Wars groups are superior in terms of superweapons, but for conventional arms (in thise case, turbolasers and phasers) I'm not quite sure who improves the quickest in terms of firepower, range, etc..

Speaking of Star Wars superweapons, have they developed bioweapons? If so, how deadly are they?

Yes they have most definately developed bioweapons, however I am not sure about their specifics. But there was the one bioweapon that was realeased on Faleen -- Vader had to burn an entire city of over 100,000+ to keep it from spreading (if memory serves me correctly).

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Well, it seems that every few years, new conventional weapons pop up for Star Trek(Photon Torpedoes, then Quantum Torpedoes, Phaser strips, then the Defiant's pulse phasers, shields, then Regenerative Shielding, tri-vector assault patterns, tri-vector assault patterns, all within DS9 and Voyager), but Star Wars takes the cake with superweapons(though they are all destroyed shockingly easily), and it has a truly massive headstart in the conventional weapons area.

I think I'd go with Star Wars. Maybe.

[Mobiboros]

Imagine if you had a power that delevoped technology at the rate of the Federation (only they remember at least half of the wonders they cook up out in the field), but with the established tech base of the GE...

Did it not occur to you that maybe they DO have this and that's why you have 200 gigaton turbolasers on a troop transport used decades before the GE?

The EU clearly shows a progression in arms and armour in the universe. But unlike Star Trek the people of the universe aren't constantly amazed by small leaps in tech. Han is constantly reworking the Falcon with new/different tech. It shows a level of comfort that many people have today with cars. They don't need to have their engineers going on and on about a 1% increase in efficiency when they can whip out a wrench, some new parts and do that themselves.

[Gunhead]

It always struck me as that in SW people aren't really discovering new tech so much as they are applying older tech to create new solutions. For instance they really haven't made significant advances in offensive technology after they invented blasters/lasers/TL's. For the most part when it comes to their superweapons they didn't exactly re-invent the wheel, they just made technology already at hand bigger and better.

-Gunhead

[apocolypse]

True, but keep in mind of the rate of improvement on the Trek side. My "wing" at this is that the Star Wars groups are superior in terms of superweapons, but for conventional arms (in thise case, turbolasers and phasers) I'm not quite sure who improves the quickest in terms of firepower, range, etc..

Speaking of Star Wars superweapons, have they developed bioweapons? If so, how deadly are they?

Yes they have most definately developed bioweapons, however I am not sure about their specifics. But there was the one bioweapon that was realeased on Faleen -- Vader had to burn an entire city of over 100,000+ to keep it from spreading (if memory serves me correctly).

Wasn't there also some nano-virus that basically took you apart from the inside out?

[Lord Revan]

Speaking of Star Wars superweapons, have they developed bioweapons? If so, how deadly are they?

there's the anti-vong bioweapon that can descriped as too effective.

[Mobiboros]

It always struck me as that in SW people aren't really discovering new tech so much as they are applying older tech to create new solutions. For instance they really haven't made significant advances in offensive technology after they invented blasters/lasers/TL's. For the most part when it comes to their superweapons they didn't exactly re-invent the wheel, they just made technology already at hand bigger and better.

-Gunhead

The Galaxy Gun, World Devastarors, The Suncrusher. They are always coming up with new ways to destroy worlds.

That aside, Star Trek does the same. Warp Drive, Phased and Photon Torpedoes are still the staple weapons. Quantum Torpedoes aren't terribly different from photorps except they're a different colour.

Saying they are 'just a refinement of existing tech' is also misleading. Would you phrase it the same if someone said "The Browning .50 cal is just a refinement of black-powder muskets". Yes, they are refinements of technology, but that doesn't mean it's not a vast improvement in design.

[Admiral Bravo]

True, but keep in mind of the rate of improvement on the Trek side. My "wing" at this is that the Star Wars groups are superior in terms of superweapons, but for conventional arms (in thise case, turbolasers and phasers) I'm not quite sure who improves the quickest in terms of firepower, range, etc..

Speaking of Star Wars superweapons, have they developed bioweapons? If so, how deadly are they?

Yes they have most definately developed bioweapons, however I am not sure about their specifics. But there was the one bioweapon that was realeased on Faleen -- Vader had to burn an entire city of over 100,000+ to keep it from spreading (if memory serves me correctly).

Wasn't there also some nano-virus that basically took you apart from the inside out?

Yeah, Mon Mothma was infected by it when a Imperial ambassador threw his drink, which contained the virus, into Mothma's face. No one could figure out the virus untill a Jedi healer managed to cleanse Mon Mothma of the virus on her deathbed.

[General Zod]

The Galaxy Gun, World Devastarors, The Suncrusher. They are always coming up with new ways to destroy worlds.

That aside, Star Trek does the same. Warp Drive, Phased and Photon Torpedoes are still the staple weapons. Quantum Torpedoes aren't terribly different from photorps except they're a different colour.

Saying they are 'just a refinement of existing tech' is also misleading. Would you phrase it the same if someone said "The Browning .50 cal is just a refinement of black-powder muskets". Yes, they are refinements of technology, but that doesn't mean it's not a vast improvement in design.

star trek has a tendency to concentrate on making huge leaps in advancement rather than gradual refinement of an existing technology, however. gradual refinements will always be more efficient and productive than looking for the next big breakthrough.

[Mobiboros]

star trek has a tendency to concentrate on making huge leaps in advancement rather than gradual refinement of an existing technology, however. gradual refinements will always be more efficient and productive than looking for the next big breakthrough.

Maybe I missed something.
TOS: Phasers, Photon Torpedoes, Warp Drive, Transporters
TNG: Same, but add quantum Torpedoes
DS9 & Voyager: Same as above, add some actual armour to the ships.

That doesn't seem to me like they are prone to huge leaps. That seems like a refinement of what's there (and not a terribly fast refinement at that).

[Gunhead]

What I mean is that the underlying technical understanding with some low level actual applications are already there, and have existed for some time.
I didn't say there was no new technology developed.
The DS is an obvious example. Previous example of wankium armor, like that used on Star's end is there. The ability to mold dense metals at molecular level is there.
To put it shortly, there is so much technology around, that it takes something of a genius to figure out that tech x has potential military applications.
Also, no sentient is aware of every piece of technology ever developed 'cos there's just too much of it.

-Gunhead

[Nick Lancaster]

I'd sum it up as follows:

Things look better with chrome. This is the Trek paradigm, the Pimp Your Phaser approach. There's not necessarily any improvement, but it looks cool. There's also a degree of minimalism to be found here, making things smaller - minitorps, microtorps, etc.

Suitable Application of HE Weapons*. This is the Wars paradigm, a doctrine of overwhelming force and developing the methods of delivering it. As we see in the films, when their doctrine changes to 'capture prisoners,' they're far less effective.

In the end, if you're counting on scientists to develop a planet-killer or sustain a totalitarian empire (vs. a concept like, 'the British Empire'), go Wars. If you're merely looking for sufficiency in defense/offense, Trek would do.

* The original quote is: 'There are few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of high explosives.'

[Mobiboros]

What I mean is that the underlying technical understanding with some low level actual applications are already there, and have existed for some time.
I didn't say there was no new technology developed.
The DS is an obvious example. Previous example of wankium armor, like that used on Star's end is there. The ability to mold dense metals at molecular level is there.

My point was that Star Trek is the same. The've had phasers and photorps for how long? With how much overall improvement? We barely even see new applications of the standard tech. While Star Wars might have such a huge base of technology that everything they do only refines it. At the very least they actually DO refine it and find new uses for existing tech.

Also, no sentient is aware of every piece of technology ever developed 'cos there's just too much of it.
-Gunhead

Never said they were aware of it all. But clearly the populace of Star Wars is comfortable with the philosophical basis of technology and applying technology that they aren't afraid of it. Nor do they leave it to what amounts to a secretive priest-like class of engineers to figure things out. Han under the deckplates banging a spanner on the hyperdrive comes to mind.

[Bounty]

At the very least they actually DO refine it and find new uses for existing tech.

In the ten years from TNG to Voyager we've seen the introduction of Quantum Torpedoes, PPC's, faster warp drives, bio-neural computer systems, holographic medical personnel, new shield systems... you don't call that improvements, or

new uses for existing tech

?

Nor do they leave it to what amounts to a secretive priest-like class of engineers to figure things out.

Care to back that up ? Most people in Trekverse seem comfortable with their tech.

[Mobiboros]

In the ten years from TNG to Voyager we've seen the introduction of Quantum Torpedoes, PPC's, faster warp drives, bio-neural computer systems, holographic medical personnel, new shield systems... you don't call that improvements, or

No. In the century from the original series we see:
Photon Torps -> Quantum Torps
Warp Drive -> Faster Warp drive
Shields -> Shields that can be modulated to account for an inherent design flaw.

PPC's, I don't know of. Are they measurably different from Phasers and does the federation use them?

Holographic Medical personnel. I'd take this as a new use for existing tech. Sure. But they've had holo-deks for how long before they thought of this? And how is having a holographic doctor better than having a living one? And didn't this give rise to a slave-class of holograms?

Bio-Neural computers. Which... are an improvement, how? Adding "Bio-Neural" doesn't make it 'better' and in fact it's an annoying brainbug that 'organic' systems are better.

I also didn't say they /didn't/ improve over time, but there was no 'great leap' like some are saying. The rate of refinement is actually rather slow. That was what I claimed. Not that there was no advancement or refinement.

Care to back that up ? Most people in Trekverse seem comfortable with their tech.

Don't have to back it up. My claim was that people in Star Wars are very comfortable with their tech. People own personal interplanetary vessels. Are comfortable navigating galactic scales. Routinely carry weapons that blow holes in walls. Own droids and can often tinker with them. Even the poor interract with droids, and utilize hovercraft, and have homes with some high-tech right alongside the low tech.

My second claim was that Star Trek tends to leave technology up to a select few to even tinker with it. My comparison was in saying the engineers are like priest-astrologers (I noted in another thread that the tech in Star Trek is akin to divine magic in fantasy worlds because it seems to break or work at the whim of some outside unknowable force).

[NRS Guardian]

I'd go for Wars just because with them I don't have to worry about it blowing up in my face, with Trek I'd be worried half the time my weapon is going to explode or horribly malfunction. Though to be fair you could say the same thing about Wars superweapons, but those mostly get destroyed by enemy action, whereas transporters, warp cores, etc. tend to break for no apparent reason.

[Ra]

PPC's, I don't know of. Are they measurably different from Phasers and does the federation use them?

I think he's referring to the Defiant's pulsed phasers. Trekkies think that they are uberpowerful compared to beam phasers. Don't ask me why.
- Ra

[Straha]

Though this one does go to the Wars Scientists I have a thought about Trek tech:

Remember Picard says something like "We weed out criminals in their Youth before they do anything wrong through brainscans" earlier on in TNG. Now... it might just be me, but I think this probably has a bit of an adverse effect on developing newer and better ways to slaughter people within the Federation...

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Imagine if you had a power that delevoped technology at the rate of the Federation (only they remember at least half of the wonders they cook up out in the field), but with the established tech base of the GE...

You'd have the Lensmen on crack. Triplanetary and First Lensman especially portray the cliche of "think it up one day, build it the next, arm the fleet with it on the third day."