A question about neutron cannons

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Karza
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A question about neutron cannons

Post by Karza »

On his plasma weapons page, mr. Wong wrote:
What should sci-fi writers use instead of these slow-moving plasma blobs?

Pretty much anything else, really. Guns, missiles, bombs, lasers, and particle beams (particularly neutral-beams such as neutron cannons, where the electromagnetic repulsion problem won't cause beam spreading and electromagnetic shielding would be ineffective)
My question is: How do you accelerate neutrons in this scheme? I read the particle beam article that was mentioned there, and it said that a neutral atom would be accelerated by adding an extra electron to it, and then removing it after the necessary velocity has been achieved, but what about a neutron? This strap-on ( :lol: ) electron -method doesn't work, if my brain serves me well. So how is it done?
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Re: A question about neutron cannons

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Karza wrote:This strap-on ( :lol: ) electron -method doesn't work, if my brain serves me well. So how is it done?
Just to pre-emptively clear any misunderstandings, I meant that it won't work with a neutron, not that it wouldn't work on an atom.
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Post by Il Saggiatore »

Neutrons can be produced through nuclear reactions.
You could accelerate the original nucleus (as part of an ionized atom), and let conservation of momentum do the rest when the neutron "splits".

However, neutrons are most effectively captured by other nuclei (which is what we want, because that's how they can affect material), when they are not to fast (basically, if they are too fast, there is not enough time for the nucleus to capture them).

Unless you want to use neutrons as simple projectiles, but I don't think that would be very effective, since you would need to hit the nucleus, which has a small cross-section compared to the atom.
You would need a high-density beam of neutrons at high speeds.

Personally, I would go for high-energy alpha-particles.

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Post by Darth Wong »

Il Saggiatore wrote:Neutrons can be produced through nuclear reactions.
You could accelerate the original nucleus (as part of an ionized atom), and let conservation of momentum do the rest when the neutron "splits".
That won't work because the proton will carry its own momentum and the fission will cause deflection.
However, neutrons are most effectively captured by other nuclei (which is what we want, because that's how they can affect material), when they are not to fast (basically, if they are too fast, there is not enough time for the nucleus to capture them).
Capture is not the goal. Energy transfer is.
Unless you want to use neutrons as simple projectiles, but I don't think that would be very effective, since you would need to hit the nucleus, which has a small cross-section compared to the atom.
Actually, the reaction cross-section of neutrons and atoms is fairly high, and neutron radiation has a well-known heating effect. Nuclear fusion bombs release a considerable fraction of their output as neutron radiation.
You would need a high-density beam of neutrons at high speeds.
That is true of any particle weapon.
Personally, I would go for high-energy alpha-particles.
Easily deflected by magnetic fields and prone to beam-spreading effects due to mutual electromagnetic repulsion. The problem with neutron cannons is finding a way to actually manipulate the neutrons as stated earlier (I mentioned them only because any sci-fi civilization with artificial gravity should be able to do it).
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Post by Il Saggiatore »

Darth Wong wrote:
Il Saggiatore wrote:Neutrons can be produced through nuclear reactions.
You could accelerate the original nucleus (as part of an ionized atom), and let conservation of momentum do the rest when the neutron "splits".
That won't work because the proton will carry its own momentum and the fission will cause deflection.
Ah yes, we cannot actually control in which direction the neutron is emitted, can we?
Darth Wong wrote:
Il Saggiatore wrote:However, neutrons are most effectively captured by other nuclei (which is what we want, because that's how they can affect material), when they are not to fast (basically, if they are too fast, there is not enough time for the nucleus to capture them).
Capture is not the goal. Energy transfer is.
I had induced radioactivity in mind.
Yes, not very effecitve as a weapon over short terms.
Darth Wong wrote:
Il Saggiatore wrote:Unless you want to use neutrons as simple projectiles, but I don't think that would be very effective, since you would need to hit the nucleus, which has a small cross-section compared to the atom.
Actually, the reaction cross-section of neutrons and atoms is fairly high, and neutron radiation has a well-known heating effect. Nuclear fusion bombs release a considerable fraction of their output as neutron radiation.
I thought using neutrons as projectiles requires the neutrons to hit the nucleus.

Darth Wong wrote:
Il Saggiatore wrote:You would need a high-density beam of neutrons at high speeds.
That is true of any particle weapon.
Il Saggiatore wrote:Personally, I would go for high-energy alpha-particles.
Easily deflected by magnetic fields and prone to beam-spreading effects due to mutual electromagnetic repulsion. The problem with neutron cannons is finding a way to actually manipulate the neutrons as stated earlier (I mentioned them only because any sci-fi civilization with artificial gravity should be able to do it).
*smacks forehead* The OP was about ship-to-ship weapons, wasn't it?
I had portable weapons in mind.

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Post by Karza »

Darth Wong wrote:The problem with neutron cannons is finding a way to actually manipulate the neutrons as stated earlier (I mentioned them only because any sci-fi civilization with artificial gravity should be able to do it).
That's a bit of a problem for me, since I'm thinking of this because I was going to use neutron cannons as the main capship weapon in my sci-fi universe, but I was also going to avoid artificial gravity like the Plague.

Drat. I'll need come up with something different then.
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Post by Antares »

The only scifi stuff i can think of to accelerate and focus neutrons is gravity.
But since gravity is the weakest of the fundametal forces this might be a little bit difficult.
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Post by Karza »

Antares wrote:The only scifi stuff i can think of to accelerate and focus neutrons is gravity.
But since gravity is the weakest of the fundametal forces this might be a little bit difficult.
And like I said, I try to avoid using that (they're not THAT advanced in Karzaverse)
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Post by Il Saggiatore »

Antares wrote:The only scifi stuff i can think of to accelerate and focus neutrons is gravity.
But since gravity is the weakest of the fundametal forces this might be a little bit difficult.
The neutron has an intrinsic magnetic moment, so it is conceivable to use magnetic fields. How practical that is, I do not know.

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Post by Karza »

Il Saggiatore wrote:The neutron has an intrinsic magnetic moment, so it is conceivable to use magnetic fields. How practical that is, I do not know.
Eh? I thought the great thing about them was precisely the fact that they are neutral particles, and thus couldn't be manipulated by electromagnetics.
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Post by Antares »

Well... you could accelerate protons and as soon as they are fast enough and correclty focused you could trigger an inverse beta-minus decay (electron forcing to merge with proton) and voila you got a neutron.
I dont know how feasible this is, though...
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Post by Darth Wong »

Antares wrote:Well... you could accelerate protons and as soon as they are fast enough and correclty focused you could trigger an inverse beta-minus decay (electron forcing to merge with proton) and voila you got a neutron.
I dont know how feasible this is, though...
It's not feasible at all, but few sci-fi technologies are. At least it makes mathematical sense, so it's still nevertheless quite a clever idea.
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Post by Il Saggiatore »

Karza wrote:
Il Saggiatore wrote:The neutron has an intrinsic magnetic moment, so it is conceivable to use magnetic fields. How practical that is, I do not know.
Eh? I thought the great thing about them was precisely the fact that they are neutral particles, and thus couldn't be manipulated by electromagnetics.
Neutrons are electrically neutral.
Charged particles can be controlled with electric fields (basically, voltages on conductors of the right geometry) and magnetic fields (Lorentz force).

You can use relatively weak magnetic fields to deflect a charged particle that is moving (which is what happens with the Earth's magnetic field, deflecting charged particles from the solar wind), because the magnetic field does not change the kinetic energy of the particle, only the momentum (direction).

If the particle is electrically neutral, there is no Lorentz force.

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Post by Lancer »

Karza wrote:
Il Saggiatore wrote:The neutron has an intrinsic magnetic moment, so it is conceivable to use magnetic fields. How practical that is, I do not know.
Eh? I thought the great thing about them was precisely the fact that they are neutral particles, and thus couldn't be manipulated by electromagnetics.
There's a slightly unequal distribution of charge in the neutron's subatomic structure (one up with charge +2/3e and two downs each with charge -1/3e, adding up to a net charge of 0). However, it still forms a (very tiny) dipole moment that you could manipulate, given you had a strong enough magnetic field.
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Post by Il Saggiatore »

Matt Huang wrote:
Karza wrote:
Il Saggiatore wrote:The neutron has an intrinsic magnetic moment, so it is conceivable to use magnetic fields. How practical that is, I do not know.
Eh? I thought the great thing about them was precisely the fact that they are neutral particles, and thus couldn't be manipulated by electromagnetics.
There's a slightly unequal distribution of charge in the neutron's subatomic structure (one up with charge +2/3e and two downs each with charge -1/3e, adding up to a net charge of 0). However, it still forms a (very tiny) dipole moment that you could manipulate, given you had a strong enough magnetic field.
I had the spin of the neutron in mind, which gives it nearly the same (intrinsic) magnetic moment as the proton (if memory serves).
Of course, the proton is easier to handle because of the electric charge.

And, strictly speaking, the neutron has a very small electric quadrupole moment, because of the non-uniform distribution of charge inside.

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Post by Karza »

Oh hell. I'll just go with proton beams or accept artificial gravity.
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Post by Prozac the Robert »

Antares wrote:Well... you could accelerate protons and as soon as they are fast enough and correclty focused you could trigger an inverse beta-minus decay (electron forcing to merge with proton) and voila you got a neutron.
I dont know how feasible this is, though...
I wonder if the countermeasure would be to magically induce decay in the incoming beam, and then deflect it wioth magnets. I supose the magic could be restricted to the inside of the gun type device to stop that though.
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Post by Ra »

Wierd thing is, my sci-fi universe uses neutron weapons as well. But, since I was also worried about the feasability of such weapons, I just call them "NP guns" and be done with it, "NP" meaning Neutral Particle, of course.
So, just come up with a "tag name", or use railguns. A hypervelocity tungsten slug can't fail you. :)
And, there's always "creative licence". A neutron gun is far more practical than magic beams that vaporize people without vapor...
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Post by Beowulf »

Another thing about high neutron fluxes is that the tend to reduce the strength of whatever material is subjected to them, thereby making it easier for subsequent shots to breach the armor.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

How about a neutron catapult?
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Post by Darth Wong »

By the way, one tried and true real-life method of making a neutral-beam is to fire a beam of hydrogen atoms. Simply accelerate protons and then combine them with electrons before release. Bingo, a collimated stream of neutral particles with no magic-tech. These things have actually been built, although they're used for fusion plasmoid heating rather than weapons.
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Post by Dark Hellion »

Or you could pull a gundam and make up your own new neutral particle with some kind of wierdo-side effect that makes it easy to control. As I often tell the writers, it's your story, do whatever the hell you want. If you can write well enough you can have tutu-wearing elephants in assault armour firing tactical nukes and people will enjoy it.
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Post by Antares »

Darth Wong wrote:By the way, one tried and true real-life method of making a neutral-beam is to fire a beam of hydrogen atoms. Simply accelerate protons and then combine them with electrons before release. Bingo, a collimated stream of neutral particles with no magic-tech. These things have actually been built, although they're used for fusion plasmoid heating rather than weapons.
Uhm ... didnt i just mention this 5 postings above? :)
Cool, that this is more real than i thought.
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Post by Karza »

Antares wrote:Uhm ... didnt i just mention this 5 postings above? :)
Cool, that this is more real than i thought.
Didn't I mention in the OP that I already knew of these :) ? Anyway, I decided to go with a mix of hydrogen beams and proton beams. With additional railguns and various guided missiles and xasers and... (ad nauseum).

No such thing as too much diversity :D.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Antares wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:By the way, one tried and true real-life method of making a neutral-beam is to fire a beam of hydrogen atoms. Simply accelerate protons and then combine them with electrons before release. Bingo, a collimated stream of neutral particles with no magic-tech. These things have actually been built, although they're used for fusion plasmoid heating rather than weapons.
Uhm ... didnt i just mention this 5 postings above? :)
Your idea involved fusing the protons and electrons into neutrons, which is vastly more difficult and technically implausible than simply letting them form hydrogen atoms.
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