SW vs ST: ZULU!!!!!!!

[Kuja]

Why? You think by being pushy others will fall into your fold? Just relax and try and accept other people's ideas. Maybe they aren't right, but I have yet to see many people on a message board change their minds mid-thread.

I do accept other people's ideas. I don't accept lamebrain moronic jokes in the middle of a serious debate.

They used stun on Leia, now didn't they? I'm not saying it would be as effective, but come on, Occam's razor here: which is more likely? That Stormtroopers have perfect aim (not yet seen in any movie) or that they just didn't shoot a droid (seen).

Yes they used a stun on Leia, WHEN THEY WEREN'T IN THE MIDDLE OF A DAMN FIREFIGHT.

As for your Ewok argument, I've heard it before. Stromtroopers died left and right, pure and simple. They dealt quite well with chaos (albeit their own chaos) aboard the Tantive IV.

Of course they died left and right. Where did I dispute that?

Once again, Stromtroopers: an effective fighting force all-around, but far from perfect and further from the invincible fable you are making them out to be.

I'm not saying their PERFECT! I'm saying that

1. they are the best for this situation
2. they're better than you're ging them credit for.

[Sea Skimmer]

While you fail to give info to the contrary. Guess we're all screwed, huh?

But I did. Storm Troopers battle a technologically inferior enemy: the ewoks. The enemy's anti-personal weapons included bows, spears, and slings. A small handfull of rebel troopers had blasters (maybe 32).

The Zulus have the advantage of terrain, as the control the surrounding hills and cliffs, as the ewoks did.

In this example we have 1000 Zulus being armed with blasters, with an additional 3000 armed with spears vs about 100 Storm Troopers.

In the movie, the Zulus place guns on the cliffs (I'll assume the movie is relatively true) giving them the ability to fire into the camp. The difference in this case, the firepower of these snipers is increased a hundred-fold, with the added benefit that the energy blasts *should* be more accurate.

I have no doubt that the Stormies would fair the best, I just don't see each trooper killing 10 blaster wielding enemies + 30 others.

Notice how the Imperials where slaughtering the Ewoks until one of there AT-ST's was turned against them.

The Zulu's did not kill a single man there there gunfire in the historical battle. And while they had encounrted many guns before, they'd likely be scared shitless of a blasters being full auto into there ranks. I doubt they would even be willing to use the blasters they had captured.

[Sea Skimmer]

More capable than you're willing to admit. They're able to watch their comrades die beside them and STILL continue herding the targets.

What is the motto for hiring new stormies?

"Join now! Herd rebels. Only A 1/5 Casualty Rate. Great Retirement Benefits and Credit Union "

The fact is, like you just admitted, they are dying! Psycho or not, what kind of useful trooper is dead? Anyone from the army, navy or air force want to answer that one? A enemy one.

So because they fall over there dead? I guess the thousands of men who have been knocked over and slightly stunned by bullets hitting their body armor in earth are all dead as well. Feel free to go track them all down and inform them of that fact.

[Zoink]

The Zulu's did not kill a single man there there gunfire in the historical battle. And while they had encounrted many guns before, they'd likely be scared shitless of a blasters being full auto into there ranks. I doubt they would even be willing to use the blasters they had captured.

I'm not sure they had 1000 riflemen. The rifles were also positioned beyond their effective range (at least in the movie). I've only seen the movie, so that's what I'm going on...unless corrected.

Before battle, Zulu warriors drug themselves with special magic "herbs". That, with their conditioning makes for a fairly fearless warrior.

In addition, with the Zulu's having 10x the number of blasters, allocating 100 to the charging force would be an effective moral booster. Since they could effectively return the same amount of firepower themselves, it wouldn't appear to be a hopeless charge.

Wether the actually use them or not, that's another question. But the original scenerio said they had 1000 of the best hand weapon, so I'll assume they will, because quantity (and the fact they had them!) would therefore be meaningless.

[Lex]

i agree with IG-88, you make the stormtroopers loock like a bucnh of untrained fighters! as IG said, the ewoks were slaughtered until chewy took control over the AT-AT. every army takes losses, but in the end only the victory counts!

[Isolder74]

While you fail to give info to the contrary. Guess we're all screwed, huh?

But I did. Storm Troopers battle a technologically inferior enemy: the ewoks. The enemy's anti-personal weapons included bows, spears, and slings. A small handfull of rebel troopers had blasters (maybe 32).

The Zulus have the advantage of terrain, as the control the surrounding hills and cliffs, as the ewoks did.

In this example we have 1000 Zulus being armed with blasters, with an additional 3000 armed with spears vs about 100 Storm Troopers.

In the movie, the Zulus place guns on the cliffs (I'll assume the movie is relatively true) giving them the ability to fire into the camp. The difference in this case, the firepower of these snipers is increased a hundred-fold, with the added benefit that the energy blasts *should* be more accurate.

I have no doubt that the Stormies would fair the best, I just don't see each trooper killing 10 blaster wielding enemies + 30 others.

Notice how the Imperials where slaughtering the Ewoks until one of there AT-ST's was turned against them.

The Zulu's did not kill a single man there there gunfire in the historical battle. And while they had encounrted many guns before, they'd likely be scared shitless of a blasters being full auto into there ranks. I doubt they would even be willing to use the blasters they had captured.

Actually they managed to kill about 5 out of shere luck with the rifles. and they wounded several others. Truefully when the shooters weren't very effective they tried t sneek them onto the rofs of the buildings to try and get some use out of the guns. All the Guns really did was annoy the British.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Zulu's did not kill a single man there there gunfire in the historical battle. And while they had encounrted many guns before, they'd likely be scared shitless of a blasters being full auto into there ranks. I doubt they would even be willing to use the blasters they had captured.

I'm not sure they had 1000 riflemen. The rifles were also positioned beyond their effective range (at least in the movie). I've only seen the movie, so that's what I'm going on...unless corrected.

Before battle, Zulu warriors drug themselves with special magic "herbs". That, with their conditioning makes for a fairly fearless warrior.

In addition, with the Zulu's having 10x the number of blasters, allocating 100 to the charging force would be an effective moral booster. Since they could effectively return the same amount of firepower themselves, it wouldn't appear to be a hopeless charge.

Wether the actually use them or not, that's another question. But the original scenerio said they had 1000 of the best hand weapon, so I'll assume they will, because quantity (and the fact they had them!) would therefore be meaningless.

Actually the Zulu's being high is a myth, they went into battle completely sober. The British where initial defeated simply because the Zulu's managed to throw there men as them faster then the British could distribute ammunition. Because of there more compact position that didn't work at the drift.

It will work even worse against Stormtroopers with E-11's, let alone generator fed T-21's. Even with more fires shooting better weapons there not going to win. A half dozen Stormtroopers could hold the position with such firepower and good fields of fire.

[Sea Skimmer]

But I did. Storm Troopers battle a technologically inferior enemy: the ewoks. The enemy's anti-personal weapons included bows, spears, and slings. A small handfull of rebel troopers had blasters (maybe 32).

The Zulus have the advantage of terrain, as the control the surrounding hills and cliffs, as the ewoks did.

In this example we have 1000 Zulus being armed with blasters, with an additional 3000 armed with spears vs about 100 Storm Troopers.

In the movie, the Zulus place guns on the cliffs (I'll assume the movie is relatively true) giving them the ability to fire into the camp. The difference in this case, the firepower of these snipers is increased a hundred-fold, with the added benefit that the energy blasts *should* be more accurate.

I have no doubt that the Stormies would fair the best, I just don't see each trooper killing 10 blaster wielding enemies + 30 others.

Notice how the Imperials where slaughtering the Ewoks until one of there AT-ST's was turned against them.

The Zulu's did not kill a single man there there gunfire in the historical battle. And while they had encounrted many guns before, they'd likely be scared shitless of a blasters being full auto into there ranks. I doubt they would even be willing to use the blasters they had captured.

Actually they managed to kill about 5 out of shere luck with the rifles. and they wounded several others. Truefully when the shooters weren't very effective they tried t sneek them onto the rofs of the buildings to try and get some use out of the guns. All the Guns really did was annoy the British.

I stand corrected. Course five kills for thousands of rounds expended by many descriptions is just awful, espically considering the target.

[Isolder74]

I stand corrected. Course five kills for thousands of rounds expended by many descriptions is just awful, espically considering the target.

Yes the Zulu's accuracy was abismal in the the original scenerio and we should assume the same would be true in all variations of te engagement.

[Typhonis 1]

Stormies toss smoke grenades at Zulus .turn there thermal sights on and start whacking em at long range .Remeber the battlefield is a collection of buildings with a fence connecting them with at least 300 meters of clear fields of fire in about all directions Endor was a freakin forest with short fields of fire .One last note whats the blast radius of a thermal detonator

[Sea Skimmer]

Stormies toss smoke grenades at Zulus .turn there thermal sights on and start whacking em at long range .Remeber the battlefield is a collection of buildings with a fence connecting them with at least 300 meters of clear fields of fire in about all directions Endor was a freakin forest with short fields of fire .One last note whats the blast radius of a thermal detonator

Couple meters. But troopers don't normally carry them because there unstable.

[Typhonis 1]

Ok well then regular smoke grenades would but a real crimp in the Zulus style .I beleave that modern smoke grenades also have a bit of tear gas in em?Would Stormies use the same since they have built in respirators?

[Sea Skimmer]

Ok well then regular smoke grenades would but a real crimp in the Zulus style .I beleave that modern smoke grenades also have a bit of tear gas in em?Would Stormies use the same since they have built in respirators?

Modern smoke grenades may end up irritating your eyes, especially close to the canister, but they don’t have tear gas in them. Tear gas grenades do however work in a very similar way and release a fair amount of smoke.

Beyound engulfing there whole position in a cloud, I dont see much use for smoke. The Zulu's won't be getting into hand to hand range and already can't hit anything with ranged weapons.

[Lex]

but stormies carry TT's with em! and thats enuf to deal with zulu's

[Isolder74]

but stormies carry TT's with em! and thats enuf to deal with zulu's

What does TT stand for

[Lex]

Thermal Tetonator...(Detonator?)

[Sea Skimmer]

Its Thermal Detonator, and Storm troopers do not normally carry them. Only Engineers normally have them and they use them as emplaced demolitions, not grenades.

[AdmiralKanos]

Preface: As Sea Skimmer noted, the Zulus had no concept of modern tactics. The concentrated charge is precisely the wrong tactic to use against automatic weapons, and their tactical incompetence will not be reversed by better weapons.

• Imperial stormtroopers: They utterly annihilate the Zulus with automatic fire from squad support weapons such as the T-21. Even if they've got nothing but E-11's, they can still wipe them out. Moronic attempts to paint them as useless incompetents notwithstanding, they have a solid track record. They would not be taken by surprise (there has already been a prior encounter in the scenario), and the terrain is wide-open.
• Tradefed army: their tactical incompetence is almost as great as that of the Zulus. They would fail to take up defensible positions and they would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
• Rebel army: they put up a good fight at Hoth. They have automatic weapons. Should be a cakewalk for them, with lots of dead Zulus laying around.
• Gungan army: Their hand-thrown weapons will not allow them to overcome the Zulus' numerical advantage.
• TOS Redshirts: their wide-angle stun probably won't penetrate leather shields (even higher-powered shots were ineffective against thick leather in "The Galileo Seven"), and it would be useless until the Zulus are almost on top of them anyway. They could sweep full-power shots through massed hordes of Zulus at short range with good effect despite the ergonomics of handguns as a primary infantry weapon(!), but the Zulus are carrying the same weapons as part of the scenario, and at that range, even they can score kills with phasers. The redshirts are overwhelmed by numbers. Either that, or they are suddenly turned into sugar cubes by weird aliens.
• TNG/DS9 Starfleet troopers: They have consistently shown that they are incapable of fending off large numbers of knife-wielding Klingon morons. I see no reason why Zulus should be any less effective.
• TNG/DS9/VOY Klingon idiots: They quickly discover to their chagrin that Bat'leths are the worst melee weapon ever invented.

[Lex]

the master has spoken...take that, fools!

[Frank LLoyd Wright]

Situation:
A small group is hold up in a small outpost called Rook's Drift thy are about to be attacked by 4,000 Zulus. The Zulus are armed with Short Spears and leather shields. They also have captured in a previus engagement 1,000 of the defender's best light weapons(E-11 Btaster Rifle, or Type III Phaser Rifle,of whatever). The defenders are hold up in a small hospital and supply depot. They only light small arms available to them but have plenty of ammunition.

defenders forces available
8 Officers

since these would be 'legendary' they would be a big factor

97 Fit for duty
36(25 walking wounded) Sick and wounded

Which force would fair the best.

Force 1
Imperial Stormtroopers

stormies have this one in the bag.

Force 2
Trade Federation Army

nothing left but a pile of broken droids.

Force 3
Rebel Army Troopers

a well organized group of rebels will be able to hold their ground as required by their orders. they are probably used to being outnumbered and will not be intimidated by the Zulus.

Force 4
Gungan Grand Army

the Zulus all drown.

Force 5
TOS Federation Security Division

despite the red shirts they will be able to defend themselves provided the Zulus dont charge with their entier force all at once.

Force 6
TNG Federation Security Division

weather they can hit their targets or not is not going to matter if their hand phasers as claimed at high can vaporize half a building. random shots against on coming Zulus will be all they need.

Force 7
Klingon Warrors

they will be honorably slaughtered as they charge the Zulu ranks "meanwhile the horns will encircle and finish"

[Isolder74]

Preface: As Sea Skimmer noted, the Zulus had no concept of modern tactics. The concentrated charge is precisely the wrong tactic to use against automatic weapons, and their tactical incompetence will not be reversed by better weapons.

• Imperial stormtroopers: They utterly annihilate the Zulus with automatic fire from squad support weapons such as the T-21. Even if they've got nothing but E-11's, they can still wipe them out. Moronic attempts to paint them as useless incompetents notwithstanding, they have a solid track record. They would not be taken by surprise (there has already been a prior encounter in the scenario), and the terrain is wide-open.
• Tradefed army: their tactical incompetence is almost as great as that of the Zulus. They would fail to take up defensible positions and they would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
• Rebel army: they put up a good fight at Hoth. They have automatic weapons. Should be a cakewalk for them, with lots of dead Zulus laying around.
• Gungan army: Their hand-thrown weapons will not allow them to overcome the Zulus' numerical advantage.
• TOS Redshirts: their wide-angle stun probably won't penetrate leather shields (even higher-powered shots were ineffective against thick leather in "The Galileo Seven"), and it would be useless until the Zulus are almost on top of them anyway. They could sweep full-power shots through massed hordes of Zulus at short range with good effect despite the ergonomics of handguns as a primary infantry weapon(!), but the Zulus are carrying the same weapons as part of the scenario, and at that range, even they can score kills with phasers. The redshirts are overwhelmed by numbers. Either that, or they are suddenly turned into sugar cubes by weird aliens.
• TNG/DS9 Starfleet troopers: They have consistently shown that they are incapable of fending off large numbers of knife-wielding Klingon morons. I see no reason why Zulus should be any less effective.
• TNG/DS9/VOY Klingon idiots: They quickly discover to their chagrin that Bat'leths are the worst melee weapon ever invented.

We all bow to your mighty wisdom master Kanos

[Lex]

It'd also be interrresting who commands the Zulu's or the other army...for example, and general like Veers or Thrawn w(sh)ould make their side win anyway!

[Isolder74]

It'd also be interrresting who commands the Zulu's or the other army...for example, and general like Veers or Thrawn w(sh)ould make their side win anyway!

The Zulus would only get the leadership they had historically

[Isolder74]

42 votes for StormTroopers wow!

[Zoink]

• Imperial stormtroopers: They utterly annihilate the Zulus with automatic fire from squad support weapons such as the T-21. Even if they've got nothing but E-11's, they can still wipe them out. Moronic attempts to paint them as useless incompetents notwithstanding, they have a solid track record. They would not be taken by surprise (there has already been a prior encounter in the scenario), and the terrain is wide-open.

Yes those E-11s are pretty amazing, now:

Could someone address the issue of the 1000 Zulu E-11 blasters without implying that the E-11 blaster is as effective as a 19th century rifle, and therefore nullifying their own argument about the Storm Trooper's superior firepower?

Namely:

- 1000 Zulu blasters all firing at the camp from high ground, looking like something from "Attack of the Clones".

- The effect of blaster bolts on the wooden structures and walls, and lack of protection thereof.

- The fact that Zulu snipers effectively have tracer fire to adjust their aim.