Arnold Vs Teachers Unions

[Col. Crackpot]

I wish we had our own Governator here in Ontario.

would he then be the Preminator? Or perhaps the Terminier? You silly Canadians and your political terminology. Just give into to assimilation already. It feels sooo good.

[Castor Troy]

You know what, I'm against allowing foreign born people to be elected as president, but Arnold sounds like he could do the job pretty damn well.

[White Haven]

Regardless of how /good/ he could be, he'd have to actively train to be worse than what we've got now..

[Castor Troy]

Regardless of how /good/ he could be, he'd have to actively train to be worse than what we've got now..

Ah, come on!

Our options were rather limited, wouldn't you agree? :p

[Chmee]

You know what, I'm against allowing foreign born people to be elected as president, but Arnold sounds like he could do the job pretty damn well.

At least as well as anyone randomly selected from the phone book .....

Stick to California, Arnold, it doesn't matter how screwed up you make that place, nobody will consider it unusual.

[Captain Cyran]

You know what, I'm against allowing foreign born people to be elected as president, but Arnold sounds like he could do the job pretty damn well.

At least as well as anyone randomly selected from the phone book .....

Stick to California, Arnold, it doesn't matter how screwed up you make that place, nobody will consider it unusual.

From what I've been hearing he's been doing a very good job in California, what makes you think he isn't?

[Chmee]

You know what, I'm against allowing foreign born people to be elected as president, but Arnold sounds like he could do the job pretty damn well.

At least as well as anyone randomly selected from the phone book .....

Stick to California, Arnold, it doesn't matter how screwed up you make that place, nobody will consider it unusual.

From what I've been hearing he's been doing a very good job in California, what makes you think he isn't?

If you just read his press releases, I suppose you could get that impression ... the general impression I get is that his policies may produce short-term relief for California's budget mess, but at the cost of longer-term problems as a result of the deals he's made. But by then, it will be some other poor sucker's problem as Arnold as stepped on to something else.

[Master of Ossus]

If you just read his press releases, I suppose you could get that impression ... the general impression I get is that his policies may produce short-term relief for California's budget mess, but at the cost of longer-term problems as a result of the deals he's made. But by then, it will be some other poor sucker's problem as Arnold as stepped on to something else.

What sort of long-term problems do you think he's creating?

Anyway, Arnold is such a HUGE upgrade from Gray Davis that it's not even funny.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Actually, Arnold's actions are creating short-term problems and setting up long-term solutions, which is why the media is screaming like a stuck pig. Guess what: Davis spent us into oblivion, and we're going to have to sacrifice alot to get ourselves back in the black.

[Sam Or I]

He is at least trying to make a change in California, a real change one. First with education. Also his other big plus, is that he is trying to get rid of gerrymandering in the state. If you paid attention to the last legislation race, not a single seat changed in California.

So go Arnold. I a may not agree with him on every issue, but his overall path is looking really good.

[Darth Wong]

What makes Arnold unique is that he doesn't seem to be interested in "playing the game" the way traditional politicians do.

[RedImperator]

What makes Arnold unique is that he doesn't seem to be interested in "playing the game" the way traditional politicians do.

He's figured out how to use the referendum against the Legislature. Someone in California has finally figured out that if the legislature is fighting you on an issue popular with the public, in that state you can take it to the public directly. This infuriates the legislature to no end.

It's actually not a precedent with which Californians should be comfortable. The legislature is supposed to be a brake on public sentiment. But the California legislature is fucking itself by standing in the way of needed reform for obviously self-serving interests. The way they're fighting redistricting reform is a textbook example: there is no way to justify partisan gerrymandering as beneficial to the public, but the legislature is fighting to keep it in order to protect incumbents.

Speaking of which, I hope Arnold wins that fight, and I hope it does like a lot of California ideas and spreads nationwide. If these pigdickers in Albany, Boston, Trenton, et al can copy statewide public smoking bans, they can copy gerrymandering bans, too.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Fine, can those of us who are related to teachers, who get paid less then the janitors, and administrators, and who supply class "disposables" and many classroom computers out of their own pocket, because the admins won't fund it. can we now charge the amount of money spent by teacher's annually for overheads, pens, pencils, music supplies, books, disposable workbooks, etc. That our govenator and his predicesors refuse to pay for, along with the fact that the wages of teachers have been almost frozen for the last decade, to YOU who think they are standing in the way of reform?

[Fire Fly]

What exactly are the pros and cons of a teacher's union? I got into an intense debate regarding improving education with a friend of mine who is planning on becoming a high school civics teacher. I argued that the first thing that is needed to improve education is to downplay teacher's unions. While they are necessary to provide a collective voice for educators, the downside was that it created a huge safety net that lead to lazy, ineffective teachers. He argued that while the system has its flaws, so do all union systems: that they inherently will protect some who are bad apples, however, they also protect those who are competent.

I retorted that if the teacher is already competent, they need not worry about getting fired. At this point, he argued that in order to improve education, you need to improve the facilities and provided adequate funding as an incentive to attract competant teachers. Of course, you can see the flaws in his arguement and it wound up with him semi-loudly saying, "C'mon, give us a break; teachers make only 25k starting out and do the best they can."

So I ask you, what really are the pros and cons to having a teacher's union?

[Fire Fly]

For the record, I personally believe that public education should be the vanguard of an intelligent workforce. I think that teachers are getting shitty pays and that are often times forced to supply materials that they shouldn't have to pay for themselves. Many teachers often do more work that they are really paid for, easily putting in 10+ hours a day. My personal arguement is to downgrade the power of the teacher's union so that it doesn't protect incompetent teachers and in return, provide the necessary monetary support to fund public education and the necessary wages to merit the competent.

[Master of Ossus]

Fine, can those of us who are related to teachers, who get paid less then the janitors, and administrators, and who supply class "disposables" and many classroom computers out of their own pocket, because the admins won't fund it. can we now charge the amount of money spent by teacher's annually for overheads, pens, pencils, music supplies, books, disposable workbooks, etc. That our govenator and his predicesors refuse to pay for, along with the fact that the wages of teachers have been almost frozen for the last decade, to YOU who think they are standing in the way of reform?

Yeah, I do. It's obvious that good teachers do much better in the classroom than poor ones, and if we were able to fire off some of the deadweight and hire good teachers to replace them (for lower salaries, I might add), then we could free up funds for other things. Let me remind you that 40% of the state budget every year is spent on education. That's on top of all of the Federal funds that the state receives for education, and private donations which make up at least a fair portion of the operating budgets of many districts. The problem in California is not lack of funding--the problem is where and how it's being spent. You can blame that on administrations--and you'd be correct to hit them with some of the blame--but the fact of the matter is that teachers' unions do not help students and hurt districts through their ridiculous rules and regulations.

[The Yosemite Bear]

And since every Principal, Vice Principal*, Discipline administrator**, Secretary, Janitor, and Counseler*** makes more then the highest paid teachers outside of college or physical education.

fuck off


In california the bloat is in administration, there aren't many deadwood teachers as those that are too lazy to really teach soon move into district jobs. Hell even some of the good teachers move into the the administrative jobs, because of the pay, and lack of employment opportunities.


*usually most k-12 schools have 3 to 7 vice principals to each school
** strangely there's usually a whole discipline security branch to each school, composed of several rent-a-cops. Even in my day they were pretty loosely screened and were committing more campus rapes then the students....
*** STrangely enough since getting continuing employment is getting harder for teachers, we now have the extra teacher/salary counsoler for all these special programs that we can't fund. My step-mom is actually a Math counselor, or basically someone whose only job it is to act as a private math tutor for the district.

[Master of Ossus]

And since every Principal, Vice Principal*, Discipline administrator**, Secretary, Janitor, and Counseler*** makes more then the highest paid teachers outside of college or physical education.

fuck off

WAAAH! Other things about the school system suck, too!

In california the bloat is in administration, there aren't many deadwood teachers as those that are too lazy to really teach soon move into district jobs.

That's bullshit. I have friends who complain about the shitty teachers ALL THE TIME. They're right, too--some of these teachers are inexcusably bad. Moreover, there's no excuse for shielding shitty teachers--something you seem incapable of recognizing.

Hell even some of the good teachers move into the the administrative jobs, because of the pay, and lack of employment opportunities.


*usually most k-12 schools have 3 to 7 vice principals to each school

And? They should be dealt with, too. That doesn't change the fact that the teachers are wasting funds.

** strangely there's usually a whole discipline security branch to each school, composed of several rent-a-cops. Even in my day they were pretty loosely screened and were committing more campus rapes then the students....

In the district around where I live, the teachers actually DEMANDED that such guards be put into place following the Colombine tragedy. Had the teachers' union been dealt with earlier, all of that waste would've been eliminated preemptively.

*** STrangely enough since getting continuing employment is getting harder for teachers, we now have the extra teacher/salary counsoler for all these special programs that we can't fund. My step-mom is actually a Math counselor, or basically someone whose only job it is to act as a private math tutor for the district.

No one who took a serious look at the CA education system could conclude that the lack of programs or funding is the primary problem. The issue is that funds are not being allocated efficiently. What percentage of funds are spent on special education children? What percentage of funds are spent on sports? What percentage of funds are spent on questionable after-school activities? I guarantee that it's not 2%, and I guarantee it's not proportional to the number of students who require such programs or their importance to the education system in general.

[Uraniun235]

What percentage of funds are spent on special education children?

I think you might have better luck attacking football than special ed... from what I've seen it tends to be as much of a sacred cow as fucking Social Security.

[The Yosemite Bear]

yes, much easier to completly remove the programs for immigrant children. (my step mom was one of the many teachers fluent in Spanish, and Hmong before Davis scrapped the whole idea of teaching immigrant kids english)

so now all of the children of Immigrants are in the Special Ed budget.

[Stark]

Australian teachers wages seem to be roughly the same as Canadian wages (some specialists get AU$60-70K). What's it like in America?

[The Yosemite Bear]

I california they get paid less the the school janitors

often get paid in IOUs for months at a time.

and even then their salery is figuring that they only work 6 hours a day in the classroom, but adding grading, preparing lesson plans, etc are really working in excess of 10 hours a day, and don't get shit for benefits, as they are considered Part time/seasonal employees, where the administration, security and janitorial staff is not.

[HemlockGrey]

That's rather odd; in PA, a guy who spends 20 years teaching high will top the salary of a college professor who's spent the same time.

[Gandalf]

What makes Arnold unique is that he doesn't seem to be interested in "playing the game" the way traditional politicians do.

Of course. Being Arnie already gets him the influence/recognition most politicians have to "play the game" for their whole careers to build up.

[Alan Bolte]

Interesting. My mother's benifits are better than my father's, and she's a teacher while he's an engineer. And you even bother to pay your janitors better than minimum wage? I don't know what they get payed around here, but I hope it's nearly that, because they do precisely jack.