How many volts does it take to stun vs. kill?

[Queeb Salaron]

Personally i think you should go with a nice chrome Colt .380, with Hello Kitty grips.

I WANT ONE!!!

[General Brock]

There are pepper sprays that supposedly discourage bears. They might take down a human as well.

Zaia seemed inclined not to inflict lethal damage, so even with a handgun, she would be in a disadvantage in a confrontation. First, any reluctance to pull the trigger gives time for an assailant to grapple for the weapon.

Second, if she keeps any weapon in her purse, instead of a body holster, there can be access problems. A purse snatcher, for example, will first grab for the purse; she would be better off releasing the purse rather than refocusing an assailent's attention to her. Then there is the problem of giving a crook the weapons in the purse.

Self-defense is an attitude, a safety attitude, and she seems best suited to avoiding or running from trouble than fighting her way out. In fact, some would argue violence is a last resort, and having to fight is a failure of plans A and B. Most responsible women's self-defense courses emphasize identifying and avoiding trouble as much as fighting. SInce most women are assaulted by people they actually know, rather than a stranger, some of the better defense courses include tips on knowing how to identify problem personalities in their circle.

A non-lethal spray is a more appropriate plan C weapon, since she would have no inhibitions about using it. Preferably one with a linked compressed air horn, if they make such a thing. Of course, if she travels by airline anywhere, she will probably be back to plans A and B when she lands. Compressed air anything isn't allowed on airplanes anymore, even in luggage. I seem to recall canned hairspray being banned.

Col. Crackpot wrote:

Personally i think you should go with a nice chrome Colt .380, with Hello Kitty grips.

Of course, if she can, she should exercise her constitutional rights with style and good taste!

[Sam Or I]

It's not the volts, its the amps that'll get ya. But that's already been mentioned. *grumbles*

Anyway, I've heard that dogwhips make surprisingly effective self defense weapons. Of course, I don't know first-hand, so take that however you will.

Yeap, again, Its amps that kill. Just to add to that, Static electrisity from walking across a rug can produce 10,000 volts plus.

[Lancer]

It's not the volts, its the amps that'll get ya. But that's already been mentioned. *grumbles*

Anyway, I've heard that dogwhips make surprisingly effective self defense weapons. Of course, I don't know first-hand, so take that however you will.

Yeap, again, Its amps that kill. Just to add to that, Static electrisity from walking across a rug can produce 10,000 volts plus.

amps may kill, but you need a certain voltage to ovreride skin's resistance.

[Tasoth]

Doesn't it take very little in the way of ampage to kill someone? IIRC from my HS physics teacher, a quarter of an amp can cause a heart attack and a single amp will simply kill you. Of course, could be wrong. Anyone know what the amp requirement is?

[Aaron]

Doesn't it take very little in the way of ampage to kill someone? IIRC from my HS physics teacher, a quarter of an amp can cause a heart attack and a single amp will simply kill you. Of course, could be wrong. Anyone know what the amp requirement is?

It's in the milli-amps applied directly accros the heart. That however is no guarentee, I survived in excess of 70,000 volts and several hundred amps through my heart and I survived.

[General Brock]

Cpl Kendall Wrote:

It's in the milli-amps applied directly accros the heart. That however is no guarentee, I survived in excess of 70,000 volts and several hundred amps through my heart and I survived.

Wow. How did that happen? Is it a good story?

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm pretty sure those depend on the fact that dogs have much more sensitive noses than humans.

And aren't they just variations on pepper spreay or tear gas that's used for humans? That's what I thought, anyways.

It's a form of pepper spray. Tear gas and Mace can only be used by police/law enforcement agencies in the US.

[Stofsk]

It's in the milli-amps applied directly accros the heart. That however is no guarentee, I survived in excess of 70,000 volts and several hundred amps through my heart and I survived.

Wow. How did that happen? Is it a good story?

No, it's not. I'll let the good Corporeal decide if he wants to fill you in, but it is by no means 'good' or pleasant. You stick that much electric shit into your body and see how you feel.

[Gunhead]

500mA applied through the heart is enough to kill. Lethality of electricity is affected by voltage, amps and duration of exposure.
When dealing with large currents, the real danger isn't your heart stopping, but from burn injuries received from the shock. 70kV going from your hand to your leg can burn blood vessels and other tissues, while to the outside observer there is little apparent physical damage.

The lesson here kiddies is that don't fuck about with electricity.

-Gunhead

[Aaron]

500mA applied through the heart is enough to kill. Lethality of electricity is affected by voltage, amps and duration of exposure.
When dealing with large currents, the real danger isn't your heart stopping, but from burn injuries received from the shock. 70kV going from your hand to your leg can burn blood vessels and other tissues, while to the outside observer there is little apparent physical damage.

The lesson here kiddies is that don't fuck about with electricity.

-Gunhead

Thats not exactly true. There will be extensive fourth degree burns around both the entrance and exit wounds with accompanying burns and blisters. But the more severe damage to the blood vessels and nerves will of course be invisible (electricity uses blood vessels and nerves to travel through the body). So there will be visible damage but the severe damage will not be apperent. The real dangers are death from infection and dehydration.

Wow. How did that happen? Is it a good story?

It's not a good story from my perspective and I'm not going to derail the thread with it. PM me and I'll fill you in some time.

[General Brock]

Stofsk wrote, Cpl Kendall wrote:

(Paraphrase) That was an insensitive and stupid question, dolt.

Um, sorry. I've had the odd jolt, and never thought it was pleasant, and never anything that big. Since Cpl K survived, I assumed it was a happy ending, worthy of song; I mean if you can't laugh at the face of death, or at least have a good giggle as you dash away...

OK, still being stupid... It is not my business, and that kind of trauma is not a joke, so I really do apologize Cpl Kendall.

Forgot thread discipline, too.

[General Brock]

Seems by the flow of this thread that electrical stunners aren't the best choice for civillian self-defense. Not reliable, and the ones that fire prongs only give one shot at one assailant. Then, there are the legal complications if the stunned criminal experiences 'health problems' and tries to sue.

What would the wisdom of the board recommend to Zaia as the best personal defense alternatives, given that she seems to favour non-lethal force?

[Ravengrim]

I want one of these: http://www.big-boys.com/articles/bulltaser.html



And you dont have to spend your whole life devoted to martial arts to be quite adept at kicking ass and protecting yourself. Look into Krav Maga and Ma Systema. The first is Israeli special forces, the second was developed by the Russian Spetsnaz. Both are quick and brutal, and very easy to learn and retain. Many Asian martial arts developed as an entire way of life and a lot really isnt applicable to someone who just wants to beat a muggers ass.

[Queeb Salaron]

What would the wisdom of the board recommend to Zaia as the best personal defense alternatives, given that she seems to favour non-lethal force?

Pepper Spray, a rape whistle, a small concealable switchblade (I seem to remember reading that lots of criminals back down at the sight of a knife, moreso than a taser or mace), a brick in the purse... anything, really.

Though that bull taser was fucking awesome. I can see a gun like that doing a whole helluvalotta damage to a human...

[Spyder]

You also have to factor probabilities. How high are your chances of getting attacked? How high are the chances of your attacker being those types immune to high-voltage tasers? Because if tasers are useless all the time, then why are they still being sold?

Yeah, you should go out and take a survey of random passers by before you make your decision. You'll need a notebook, a pen, a car battery, some jumper cables and a multimeter so you can measure their resistance.

[Sea Skimmer]

Pepper Spray, a rape whistle, a small concealable switchblade (I seem to remember reading that lots of criminals back down at the sight of a knife, moreso than a taser or mace), a brick in the purse... anything, really.

Though that bull taser was fucking awesome. I can see a gun like that doing a whole helluvalotta damage to a human...

Switchblades are illegal in a large part of the US. You don't want anything illegal for personal defence; you want to be able to talk to the police afterwards. Also, if you do carry a gun for self defence you only want factory loaded ammunition in it, there have been attempts by prosecutors, a lawyers in civil suits, to demonize people using hand loaded ammo as having been out to kill or create some special 'man killer' loading.

[Uraniun235]

That's completely fucked up; if you're shooting someone, you damn well better kill him.

[The Yosemite Bear]

dear ms. Z

volts don't kill they just push someone away. It's the AMPs that fuck up the nervous system, and the leathality of the amps depends on the person's medical situation, if they have a family history of strokes, heart problems or dog forbid a pace maker, it won't take many amps to do them in.

spoken by the nerd whose had more volts then any of the above pumped through his system (to be exact was working on a computer at the exact moment that the power lines were struck by a lightning bolt, thrown across the room, had my hair singed, ect. The Volts came through nice, but there was a bit of material between me and the lightning bolt for much of the amps to get through)

[The Yosemite Bear]

Also it's the higher percentage of fat and or muscle mass that the body has, the more resistance to the push from the volts

however conversely the weaker the heart the more effected they are by one.

for self protection from your sexual harrassers, I would go with a rape horn. even if the 170 db didn't discourage the fuck nut, the attention, a fucking 170 db blast will bring will.

[Ravengrim]

Honestly, for self defense I would recommend a 9MM with Hydra-Shok or Speer Gold Dot ammo. They are light, easily concealable and have a manageable recoil. You have a far greater chance of a stun gun or pepper spray or other nonsense taken away from you and used against you than a handgun, even if you fire first. Over 1 million crimes in the U.S. are stopped every year by armed citizens, and the vast majority are with no shots fired. Guns are scary, and producing one will 9 times out of 10 make a predator move on to easier prey. You dont even have to load it, I guess, but that is kind of taking a gamble.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I don't think there would be any firearm compatable with ms. Z. unless you count a shark stick loaded with rocksalt....

[Aaron]

I don't think there would be any firearm compatable with ms. Z. unless you count a shark stick loaded with rocksalt....

Um ok, is this a political issue or a psychological issue?

[The Yosemite Bear]

She doesn't want to use leathal force, but she wants to be able to assurably disable the men who are making her single life miserable...

and could you picture the shark stick that fit's in the purse and gives the guy a skin full of rock salt.

[Ravengrim]

She doesn't want to use leathal force, but she wants to be able to assurably disable the men who are making her single life miserable...

No offense, but I beleive that would be called making better dating decisions. Seriously, a taser isn't a toy that you take out and zap someone with every time they make a lewd comment. You can KILL someone with a taser and a stun gun, easily. They are more correctly called 'less-lethal' weapons. If used incorrectly, or sometimes even correctly, people can easily die though addmittedly not as likely as with a bullet. If you are looking for a completely non-lethal form of self defense try silly string or flypaper or something.