Death Star I vs. B5 Powers

Resident Commie · Post by **Resident Commie** » 2002-07-23 05:42pm

Since I am after all a Wars fan and have yet to post something realated to Star Wars. Here's my first post for you to ponder.

The Death Star is brought into the B5 galaxy by some from of sentient spatial anomaly (insert ST technobabble).

Death Star vs. B5 powers before Shadow War circa 2260
B5 Powers include:
Vorlons
Shadows
Drakh
EA
Minbari
Centauri
Narn (well they weren't really a galatic power at that time since they were under centauri occupation)

Death Star's objectives are to envade Shadow and Vorlon territory destroy their respective homeworlds. Then battle all significant resistance "middle race" fleets and destory centuari and minbari HWs. Lastly they attempt to invading earth. Once this is done they win and anomoly sends them home. *note Imps will have no allies in the campagain

Questions to answer:
Will they make it to the Vorlon HW (where everyone else has failed) and can they destroy it? (i know this is kinda specualtive since there is no canon evidence of the HW's defences.)
How will the DS fare against vorlon and shadow fleets? Against Vorlon Planet Killer?
How will DS fare against Minbari, EA and Centuari fleets?
Does the DS have enough ground forces to beat earth into submission?

Whats your take?
Also feel free to expand on this subject.

Resident Commie · Post by **Resident Commie** » 2002-07-23 05:44pm

Also, will any of these races be able to discover and exploit the first Death Stars weakness.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-07-23 05:56pm

Lieutenant: Sir, we've reached optimum firing distance. We await your command to fire on Z'Ha'Dum

Grand Moff Tarkin: You may fire when....

Tarkin stops. As do all crewmembers of the great Imperial Space Station. they all see in their minds eye, 14 pinpricks of malice and hate, in two groupings of 2X7. The eye....the eye of Z'Ha'Dum...

GMT: Begin self destruct sequence lieutenant....

septesix · Post by **septesix** » 2002-07-23 06:28pm

If the Deathstar started with EA and other Younger Races, they'd be able to accomplised much more. Nothing EA, Centuri, or Minbari has can stop DS. It's also unlikely that they can discover the weakness without the intelligence network the Rebel has.

However, putting Death Star against First Ones? Plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

There are so many way either Vorlon or Shadow can bitchslap the lonely DS it's not even funny....

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-07-23 07:14pm

The first ones are so overblown in proportion it ain't funny.
I've never seen any of these socalled mindraping tactics or anything like it anywhere.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-23 07:23pm

The DS's technology is far beyond even that of the First Ones, but the First One's psychic powers MIGHT be able to stop it. Nothing any of the younger races have would be able to stand up to the DS.

Resident Commie · Post by **Resident Commie** » 2002-07-23 08:00pm

Alright, so it's concluded that the Death Star could basically waste all younger races. And that combined the Vorlons and Shadows could overwhelm them.

So how about an invasion of earth?
What kind of ground forces does the death star have? (Enough to put the EA army out of commission)?
Would G.O.D make a dent on the DS? http://www.b5tech.com/science/weapons/p ... ebeam.html
Would starfurys be able find the thermal exhaust port and deliver the KO?

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-23 08:09pm

septesix wrote:If the Deathstar started with EA and other Younger Races, they'd be able to accomplised much more. Nothing EA, Centuri, or Minbari has can stop DS. It's also unlikely that they can discover the weakness without the intelligence network the Rebel has.

However, putting Death Star against First Ones? Plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

There are so many way either Vorlon or Shadow can bitchslap the lonely DS it's not even funny....

How on Earth are the Vorlons or Shadows supposed to affect the Death Star? Shadow ships are only slightly superior to those of the younger races.

How are their telepaths supposed to affect several million/billion people at once? Especially when the Emperor can directly control the minds of millions.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-23 08:12pm

Shadow WarChief wrote:Lieutenant: Sir, we've reached optimum firing distance. We await your command to fire on Z'Ha'Dum

Grand Moff Tarkin: You may fire when....

Tarkin stops. As do all crewmembers of the great Imperial Space Station. they all see in their minds eye, 14 pinpricks of malice and hate, in two groupings of 2X7. The eye....the eye of Z'Ha'Dum...

GMT: Begin self destruct sequence lieutenant....

Yes. Just like what happened every time the perfectly normal crews of the younger races' fleets travelled there.

septesix · Post by **septesix** » 2002-07-23 08:34pm

First of all, care to explain how are any of the Guards going to stop a Vorlon boarding the Deathstar?

Second, Emperor aren't present, so that's a non-arguement.

Third, The Eyes WORKS. Period. No Ifs, no Buts, No Howevers. there's only once when a YR ship travel directly to Z'Ha'Dum, and that's the 2nd Whitestar. And in that instance, the Eyes take over all the crew aboard , almost instantly.

Of Course, you can argue that the DeathStar can emulate what Leinner did, and make a automatic firing command. But , honestly, what do you expected to accomplish by destroy Z'Ha'Dum? make some nice space debries? DO you honestly think FOR ONE SECOND that the Shadows care about that Rock?

When it comes to Ship to Ship, A Deathcloud can certinly blow away a DeathStar, no problem. So can a Vorlon Planetkiller. But even without those heavy hitter, they still have other ways to do it, like having a Shadow fighter phased inside the DeathStar Core and Blow in apart . Or have a Vorlon or Shadow board the ship and start a masscare.

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-07-23 08:47pm

septesix wrote: First of all, care to explain how are any of the Guards going to stop a Vorlon boarding the Deathstar?

Second, Emperor aren't present, so that's a non-arguement.

Third, The Eyes WORKS. Period. No Ifs, no Buts, No Howevers. there's only once when a YR ship travel directly to Z'Ha'Dum, and that's the 2nd Whitestar. And in that instance, the Eyes take over all the crew aboard , almost instantly.

Of Course, you can argue that the DeathStar can emulate what Leinner did, and make a automatic firing command. But , honestly, what do you expected to accomplish by destroy Z'Ha'Dum? make some nice space debries? DO you honestly think FOR ONE SECOND that the Shadows care about that Rock?

When it comes to Ship to Ship, A Deathcloud can certinly blow away a DeathStar, no problem. So can a Vorlon Planetkiller. But even without those heavy hitter, they still have other ways to do it, like having a Shadow fighter phased inside the DeathStar Core and Blow in apart . Or have a Vorlon or Shadow board the ship and start a masscare.

How do you know the Vorlon PK can penetrate its shields, we never see it work.

And the Shadow PK same thing the DS shields.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-23 08:54pm

*eyebrow raise*

Exactly what are gigaton-level missiles going to do to a station immune to attack from heavy capitals that pump out teratons? Besides make it's officer snicker?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-07-23 09:02pm

septesix wrote:When it comes to Ship to Ship, A Deathcloud can certinly blow away a DeathStar, no problem. So can a Vorlon Planetkiller. But even without those heavy hitter, they still have other ways to do it, like having a Shadow fighter phased inside the DeathStar Core and Blow in apart . Or have a Vorlon or Shadow board the ship and start a masscare.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!
What are you smoking?
Neither the VPK nor SPK have anything near the firepower or energy capabilities of the Deathstar.
I'd like to see how a Vorlon would pass through energy shields too.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-23 10:54pm

septesix wrote:First of all, care to explain how are any of the Guards going to stop a Vorlon boarding the Deathstar?

Why should they really care if a Vorlon boards the death star? 20 troopers can hold it at bay for an indefinite period at time, and nearly kill it. I don't think it would cause too much trouble to several _million_ stormtroopers.

Third, The Eyes WORKS. Period. No Ifs, no Buts, No Howevers. there's only once when a YR ship travel directly to Z'Ha'Dum, and that's the 2nd Whitestar. And in that instance, the Eyes take over all the crew aboard , almost instantly.

Episode title where this occurred please.

[qupte]
Of Course, you can argue that the DeathStar can emulate what Leinner did, and make a automatic firing command. But , honestly, what do you expected to accomplish by destroy Z'Ha'Dum? make some nice space debries? DO you honestly think FOR ONE SECOND that the Shadows care about that Rock?[/quote]

They care abouyt it enough that Sheridan killed a great deal of them with a 500 Megaton explosion.

When it comes to Ship to Ship, A Deathcloud can certinly blow away a DeathStar, no problem.

Bullshit. The deathstar's sheilds withstood _Alderaan_ at six planetary diamters. That's only an absorbed energy of 1.4E32 J. It will only take 33 trillion death cloud missiles to reach a perfectly safe limit for the Death Star's shielding.

So can a Vorlon Planetkiller.

Unfortunately for you, the Death Star is so extremely shielded that it can withstand planet destroying firepower. Since a Vorlon planet killer can't even exceed the binding energy of a planet it doesn't really stand a chance against the death star.

But even without those heavy hitter, they still have other ways to do it, like having a Shadow fighter phased inside the DeathStar Core and Blow in apart .

Just like they did with Bab4. Oh, wait, they didn't. Name the episode where a shadow ship moves through solid matter.

Or have a Vorlon or Shadow board the ship and start a masscare.

Shadows will hardly be able to perform a massacre. They die to less than 10 Centauri hand weapon shots. As for the Vorlons, what do you expect a single one to do? Do you really expect it to kill several billion people before it get killed itself?

septesix · Post by **septesix** » 2002-07-24 01:39am

This is why I don't get into Big 3 debates.....

The espiode where we see the Eye works is either the 1st or 2nd espiode of the 4th season, when Deleen took a whitestar and went looking for Sheridan

How is 20 troopers going to keep one at bay indefinelty? The entire B5 security team, plus the power of the entire B5 station, merely manage to break an encounter suits apart. Said Vorlon then start throwing people around as if they were toys. It took the power of another Vorlon to take it out.

I'd have to concede on the SPK vs DS topic. It's hard to argue when there is that crap ICS out there. Still, it will be interesting to see how the effect of the SPK's energy drain works on the DS.

However, how are the DS going to prevent a Shadow fighter from phasing inside DS and start from the inside? Or for that matter, We can also have a Vorlon opening a jump point inside the deathstar too. Unlike other fleet battles , the DS is a target BIG enough for that tatic to be useful.

They care abouyt it enough that Sheridan killed a great deal of them with a 500 Megaton explosion.

Just because Sheridan killed a bunch of them with that Nuke, doesn't mean that they care. Z'Ha'Dum ends up blowing apart after the Drakh evacute the entire planet of any useful shadow tech anyway. (Although the destruction was actaully triggered by Lyta)

[/quote]

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-07-24 02:56am

Here's my ten cents..my two cents is free!

Okay seriously;

Originally posted by septesix

Of Course, you can argue that the DeathStar can emulate what Leinner did, and make a automatic firing command. But , honestly, what do you expected to accomplish by destroy Z'Ha'Dum? make some nice space debries? DO you honestly think FOR ONE SECOND that the Shadows care about that Rock?

In a word...yes. Why? Because that is where the 'Eye' is, and the Eye is the control feature that coordinates all the Shadow's warships. Taken from the Technomage series.. Anna hears the Eye say this, The Eye tells her this, Anna trusts the Eye, etc.

Also the only reason Sheridan was able to accomplish the bombing of Z'Ha'Dum was because Galen was in control of the Eye and didn't tell/warn/allow the planets defences to stop the whitestar, conferms that the Eye is important. It is on Z'Ha'Dum, ergo it's impotant to the Shadows.

Second, Emperor aren't present, so that's a non-arguement.

The Emperor doesn't need to be present, only alive. Well this far-fetched but that is my theory and I am sticking to it

Third, The Eyes WORKS. Period. No Ifs, no Buts, No Howevers. there's only once when a YR ship travel directly to Z'Ha'Dum, and that's the 2nd Whitestar. And in that instance, the Eyes take over all the crew aboard , almost instantly.

I agree with you on this point, however Ulkesh said.."like will recognise like" or something to that effect, and wouldn't the Eye just recognise the Emperor's evil and let it through? Also far-fetched, but do we even know exactly how many people this thing can control?

Anyway, I don't think that I helped in any way, just added more fuel to the fire!

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-24 07:32am

Wouldn't Vader be on the DS? I somehow doubt they could mind control a Sith.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2002-07-24 09:50am

In terms of sheer firepower and ability to take punishment, the First Ones are up a certain creek without a paddle.

Even if we are extremely conservative in evaluating the abilities of Imperial gear, the First Ones simply do not have any way to match those abilities, and less advanced species like the Centauri are simply dead.

Against a Centauri battlecruiser a single flight of TIE fighters should be overkill. Centauri battlecruisers are fairly easily holed by 20 megawatt plasma pulse weapons. Even if we assume each pulse delivers 20 megajoules of energy, for a total of 40 megajoules per dual blast, that is relatively piddling compared to the firepower available to a TIE. Seen as conservatively as possible, we might see the dueal lasers of the standard TIE as roughly equivalent to a dual laser cannon from an Aethersprite, for a maximum firepower of 1 kiloton per shot (though 2 kilotons is likely more realistic).

40 megajoules is 4 x 10E7 joules (if I'm doing the notation right)
1 kiloton is 4.5 x 10E12 joules (once again, if I haven't screwed up the notation), and 2 kilotons is 9 x 10E12 joules

That's a huge difference in terms of firepower, enough so that I would expect one firing pass by a pair of TIEs to be sufficient to make a Centauri battlecruiser blow up. TIEs usually fire short bursts at larger vessels (such as the Millenium Falcon), and if we assume four shots hit per fighter we end up with a minimum of 8 kilotons of delivered energy.

Similarly, Vorlon and Shadow warships can be destroyed or damaged by being within kilometers of a 500 megaton explosion in vacuum, so that the 6 megatons maximum per shot from an Acclamator's lighter guns should handily destroy something like a Shadow Battlecrab with one hit to the center of mass. The quad turbolasers with 200 gigatons per shot are sheer overkill in that situation, but perhaps a better choice against Vorlon battlecruisers or VPKs. Considering the comparatively limited firepower of something like the Shadow Deathcloud, a squadron of ISDs should be able to take out the cloud network's defensive guns as well as its control center within a relatively short period of time, no more than a few minutes. Shielded fighters and blastboats should be able to weather the extreme heat-draining qualities of the cloud and engage the missiles deployed by the cloud, though the total number that could be engaged would be limited.

Ultimately, only the mental powers of the First Ones appear likely to be able to withstand the military might of the Empire. However, that does not factor in the possible effects of Force practitioners, and it must be remembered that in the majority of cases the Vorlons and Shadows resorted to brute force techniques, apparently due to the limitations of their mental powers. A typical example would be the first attack by the Allied fleet on the Shadows, another the later attack by the White Star fleet on a Vorlon listening post preliminary to the four way conflict between the Shadwos, Vorlons, Young Races and remaining First Ones.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2002-07-24 11:13am

Crown wrote:
I agree with you on this point, however Ulkesh said.."like will recognise like" or something to that effect, and wouldn't the Eye just recognise the Emperor's evil and let it through? Also far-fetched, but do we even know exactly how many people this thing can control?

No. "Like will recognize like" means the Eye will recognize Shadowtech and allow it to pass. This is how Galen was able to land on Z'ha'dum. Unless the Emperor and the DS use Shadowtech, they will be attacked by the Eye.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-07-24 01:33pm

The Deathstar has tanks and shit it can bring to bear on any invading vorlon, assuming he won't die by touching the shield.

adam warlock · Post by **adam warlock** » 2002-07-24 03:35pm

How on Earth are the Vorlons or Shadows supposed to affect the Death Star?

hmm.. a lone battespider phasing/halfphasing through to the core would do nicely

How are their telepaths supposed to affect several million/billion people at once? Especially when the Emperor can directly control the minds of millions.

lyta herself destroyed a hivemind, telepathically in control of an entire planet (genius loci), and she admitted that another person was more powerful than her because he had a PIECE of a vorlon inside him (nautilus coil).

Why should they really care if a Vorlon boards the death star? 20 troopers can hold it at bay for an indefinite period at time, and nearly kill it. I don't think it would cause too much trouble to several _million_ stormtroopers.

20 troopers can hold it at bay?.. with what?..rapid ppg fire from multiple sources, and a portion of the stations power only managed to crack the armour open... after that it got harder.. the ppg fire wasnt even hitting the vorlon (just passing through) while it was certainly capable of striking back using its tendrils, and blue bolts... plus its capable of phasing through hull material/structures..
only reason this particular vorlon (ulkesh) got killed was because of the remaining piece of kosh (inside sheriden) being aided by Lorien (the first one).

once a vorlon is inside the ds.. theres no way storm fodders are gonna stop it..

Unfortunately for you, the Death Star is so extremely shielded that it can withstand planet destroying firepower. Since a Vorlon planet killer can't even exceed the binding energy of a planet it doesn't really stand a chance against the death star.

lest the shields generators are turned off from the inside, through energy drain, temperature drop, or have a shadow ship pass through and do a horrid number of things..

Just like they did with Bab4. Oh, wait, they didn't. Name the episode where a shadow ship moves through solid matter.

nature of hyperspace travel, plus ability of advanced ships to scan realspace from within hyperspace..halfphasing ability was stated by b5wars.

Shadows will hardly be able to perform a massacre. They die to less than 10 Centauri hand weapon shots. As for the Vorlons, what do you expect a single one to do? Do you really expect it to kill several billion people before it get killed itself?

no body was shown after the centauri weapon stopped hitting the shadow.... passing of technomages book reveal that the ppg shots sheriden fired at the shadow, didnt even get through the armour.. also the death of a shadow is accompanied by a release of energy.. no such thing was shown in that scene involving centauri ppg.

as for vorlons.. see above.. theres nothing to indicate them being able to affect a being that makes itself intangible to weapons fire, but can strike back in return, physically and telepathically.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-07-24 03:50pm

I keep hearing this "phase through the ship" stuff... yet I've seen no evidence of it.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-24 04:09pm

septesix wrote:The espiode where we see the Eye works is either the 1st or 2nd espiode of the 4th season, when Deleen took a whitestar and went looking for Sheridan

She did this at the same time that she fasted in her room?

How is 20 troopers going to keep one at bay indefinelty? The entire B5 security team, plus the power of the entire B5 station, merely manage to break an encounter suits apart. Said Vorlon then start throwing people around as if they were toys. It took the power of another Vorlon to take it out.

It was not the entire B5 security team, is was less than 40, and closer to 20 people.

I'd have to concede on the SPK vs DS topic. It's hard to argue when there is that crap ICS out there. Still, it will be interesting to see how the effect of the SPK's energy drain works on the DS.

Did you not even read my argument? The Incredible Cross Sections has absolutely nothing to do with the Death Star's ability to survive. It's ability to survive comes from the fact that it sat six planetary diameters from Alderaan and remained perfectly unscathed.

However, how are the DS going to prevent a Shadow fighter from phasing inside DS and start from the inside?

I'm still waiting for the episode where a shadow fighter phased through solid matter.

Just because Sheridan killed a bunch of them with that Nuke, doesn't mean that they care. Z'Ha'Dum ends up blowing apart after the Drakh evacute the entire planet of any useful shadow tech anyway. (Although the destruction was actaully triggered by Lyta)

In case you haven't actually watched the show, the planet was destroyed _after_ the Shadows had already left the galaxy.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2002-07-24 04:15pm

adam warlock wrote:hmm.. a lone battespider phasing/halfphasing through to the core would do nicely

I'm still waiting for some actual evidence for this ability.

lyta herself destroyed a hivemind, telepathically in control of an entire planet (genius loci), and she admitted that another person was more powerful than her because he had a PIECE of a vorlon inside him (nautilus coil).

Those are not episodes of B5.

20 troopers can hold it at bay?.. with what?..rapid ppg fire from multiple sources, and a portion of the stations power only managed to crack the armour open...

Which a million stormtroopers can do quite easily.

after that it got harder.. the ppg fire wasnt even hitting the vorlon (just passing through) while it was certainly capable of striking back using its tendrils, and blue bolts... plus its capable of phasing through hull material/structures..

Prove that it is capable of this phasing.

only reason this particular vorlon (ulkesh) got killed was because of the remaining piece of kosh (inside sheriden) being aided by Lorien (the first one).

So bring some heavy weapons or Jedi into the battle.

lest the shields generators are turned off from the inside, through energy drain,

Oh yes, they are going to be able to drain all of the energy from a reactor several trillion times more powerful than any they have ever seen.

temperature drop,

No different than energy drain.

or have a shadow ship pass through and do a horrid number of things..

Shadow ships cannot phase through solid matter.

nature of hyperspace travel, plus ability of advanced ships to scan realspace from within hyperspace..halfphasing ability was stated by b5wars.

I said to name the episode. It never happened in any episode, so therefore they cannot accomplish this.

no body was shown after the centauri weapon stopped hitting the shadow....

So that would be why they didn't attack Londo, or anyone else, and why Morden was horrified at their deaths.

passing of technomages book reveal that the ppg shots sheriden fired at the shadow, didnt even get through the armour.. also the death of a shadow is accompanied by a release of energy.. no such thing was shown in that scene involving centauri ppg.

That book is not an episode and is therefore not a valid source of information.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-24 04:21pm

What's the range of the Eye? The DS was going to fire on Yavin from more than a Yavin planetary diamater and one half away (from the screen in the control room). Is it possible that the DS would be able to fire without giving the Eye a chance to work, or is the Eye powerful enough to go after all ships in the entire system, or even beyond?