Clone War and Infantry Fighting

[NecronLord]

Doesn't quite explain how Naboo peace keepers know to keep to cover and lay down suppressing fire and advance from a base of fire throughout the assualt on Theed. Are Naboo cops better than clone troops trained by a Mandalorian commando? Troops that are intentionally being trained and prepared for war as opposed to Naboo Peace Officers?

It's likely that the cops have seen more 'action' than the clones and droids you know.

The battle droids also utilize shoot and scoot manuevers in TPM yet are extremely dumbed down in AOTC.

Fresh from the factory. It's been proposed that the droids learn by simulating combat agaisnt each other in their downtime, and other such things.

And Tactics usually link up with technology. One of the reasons people fought the way they did in Napoleonic era was the technlogy aviable to them, their rifles andc the volume of fire needed to overcome the enemy lines forceing people to stand there in lines and shoot into each other. By the time of the American Civil War rifle technology and the like had advanced to the point where such tactics were making casulaties mount at incredible rates. They were figthing using out dated tactics.

The casualty rates of the clones and droids doubtless are incredible.

In WW II the soldiers had to move because unlike WWI they couldn't just hunkerdown and wait out the assaults behind trenches and fortifications. Mechanized warfare demanded movement, fire supression and assaults based on base of fire.

The British at least had to learn this from experience. The French also had a poor grasp of the neccessery tactics. I don't see why biologists, a single specops commando, and a bunch of weapons makers are neccesserily going to come up with war winning tactics.

Star Wars technology would assume you don't want to stand out in the open and fire into each other like that especially with gigaton and megaton level weapons yields.

Actually, given that practically no one has a non-LOS weapon, that's exactly what they have to do in order to kill the enemy.

[NecronLord]

How does that explain the ARC Commandoes and special troopers that we see fighting in the clonewars? They were personally trained by Jango and they sneak around, they fire from behind cover, they utilize covering fire, etc.

One man a training programme does not make. It's also possible he dusted off the old Mandalorian Supercommando instruction manual for training them.

[buzz_knox]

This is backed up by Padme just so happening to pick up a clone trooper after she fell off the LAAT.

She didn´t find him, he fell out of the gunship when she did.

As for tactics in AOTC, didn´t the first tanks in WW I go behind the advancing troops much like we see the AT-TE's doing? Could be another RL parallell, with the Republic not knowing how to utilize new hardware properly.

This same practice was continued with Soviet/Warsaw Pact forces for decades. Troops would advance with/in front of armor to clear out anti-tank forces, so that the tanks were free to engage distant direct fire artillery, machine gun nests, and other tanks.

The same thing may be going on here. Given the extreme levels of firepower that an individual solider (or droid) can bring to bear, the clones may advance to open a buffer zone for the following armored units by clearing those areas ahead of the units of any soldier/droid carrying a portable anti-armor weapon. The armor units are thus free concentrate on destroying high-value targets (such as the enemy ships).

In the absence of effective artillery prep, it's actually good combined forces tactics . . . for a military not overly concerned with the survival of individual soldiers (be they clone or droid).

[Stravo]

Doesn't quite explain how Naboo peace keepers know to keep to cover and lay down suppressing fire and advance from a base of fire throughout the assualt on Theed. Are Naboo cops better than clone troops trained by a Mandalorian commando? Troops that are intentionally being trained and prepared for war as opposed to Naboo Peace Officers?

It's likely that the cops have seen more 'action' than the clones and droids you know.

Naboo that has not seen war in its recent history? You're going to compare the kind of action police officers and palace guards get to full combat training by a commando that can go toe to toe with a Jedi? That's like saying NYPD's 'action' is equivalent to a Marine Corps D.I's.

The battle droids also utilize shoot and scoot manuevers in TPM yet are extremely dumbed down in AOTC.

Fresh from the factory. It's been proposed that the droids learn by simulating combat agaisnt each other in their downtime, and other such things.

I haven't seen any evidence that battledroids have a learning adaptive AI like Terminators. They have preprogrammed responses and are controlled from a central processing point. Hardly neccessary to have adaptive learning droids if thats the case when you can control them from a single point as they did in TPM and they were far superior than their more advanced models built on Geonosis performance wise. In fact you would thnk they'd upload everything the droids learned on Naboo into these droids. Instead we get the walking dead style of combat.

And Tactics usually link up with technology. One of the reasons people fought the way they did in Napoleonic era was the technlogy aviable to them, their rifles andc the volume of fire needed to overcome the enemy lines forceing people to stand there in lines and shoot into each other. By the time of the American Civil War rifle technology and the like had advanced to the point where such tactics were making casulaties mount at incredible rates. They were figthing using out dated tactics.

The casualty rates of the clones and droids doubtless are incredible.

The example of the American Civil War figthing tactics vs. advanced tech is nowhere near the tech gap we see in the tactics on the field and the technology in use in AOTC.

Are we then saying that Napoleanic tactics are the default for a society millennia ahead of us? Why is the default not something more like industrial revolution level or Atomic age for fuck's sake. Does it really make more sense to use weapons with the kinds of yields and lethality of SW weapons by standing in front of each other and shooting or trying to get from behind cover and use your firepower to supress then assault? Blasters would demand duck and cover not stand in the face of it and fire and hope you hit something before they hit you. Even the illtrained, illequipped rebel alliance knew better and many of them were civilians most of their lives with no combat experience.

In WW II the soldiers had to move because unlike WWI they couldn't just hunkerdown and wait out the assaults behind trenches and fortifications. Mechanized warfare demanded movement, fire supression and assaults based on base of fire.

The British at least had to learn this from experience. The French also had a poor grasp of the neccessery tactics. I don't see why biologists, a single specops commando, and a bunch of weapons makers are neccesserily going to come up with war winning tactics.

Its not war winning, That's the point. Its very basic. We're not talking about spanking brand new weapons like Machine guns and airplanes in WWI never before seen on the battlefield. We're talking about blasters and replulsorlift vehicles all of which have been around for millennia in the Warsverse. In WWI the commanders had to adapt tactics to weapons they had never faced before. This is not the case on Geonosis. There was nothing new on Geonosis.

Star Wars technology would assume you don't want to stand out in the open and fire into each other like that especially with gigaton and megaton level weapons yields.

Actually, given that practically no one has a non-LOS weapon, that's exactly what they have to do in order to kill the enemy.

So in WWII Allied troops need to stand out in the open on DDay and fire into German troops standing out in the open and slowly advance on each other? German panzers should have approached slowly while German infantry marched in front of it during a full on assault on open flat ground?

LOS weapons does not mean stand out in the open and shoot like you were in the American Revolutionary War. Troops have had LOS weapons since the Bow and arrow and tactics have evolved with capability.

[NecronLord]

Naboo that has not seen war in its recent history? You're going to compare the kind of action police officers and palace guards get to full combat training by a commando that can go toe to toe with a Jedi? That's like saying NYPD's 'action' is equivalent to a Marine Corps D.I's.

Naboo cops carry guns. It's not entirely unreasonable to assume they've been in gunfights now and then. How many gunfights has a Geonosis era clone been in? What about the droids (though these have less excuse. Thier suckyness is simply poor writing. Lucas has actually said that if you wave your hand in front of a B1 you will confuse it, and "the battle droids are working off an old Commodore"

I haven't seen any evidence that battledroids have a learning adaptive AI like Terminators.

Most droids adapt to their situation.

They have preprogrammed responses and are controlled from a central processing point.

This has been changed by the Battle of Geonosis. Droid Command Ships now act as tactical co-ordination centres.

Hardly neccessary to have adaptive learning droids if thats the case when you can control them from a single point as they did in TPM and they were far superior than their more advanced models built on Geonosis performance wise. In fact you would thnk they'd upload everything the droids learned on Naboo into these droids. Instead we get the walking dead style of combat.

The example of the American Civil War figthing tactics vs. advanced tech is nowhere near the tech gap we see in the tactics on the field and the technology in use in AOTC.

And? Modern armies are run by generals. The CIS is run by Bankers and the Clone Army is lead based on Genetics.

Are we then saying that Napoleanic tactics are the default for a society millennia ahead of us?

No. We're saying that their excuse for being retards is that they haven't fought a war in the last thousand years. If the last guy in the UK to fight a battle was William the Conquerer, I doubt I would know much about warfare.

Why is the default not something more like industrial revolution level or Atomic age for fuck's sake. Does it really make more sense to use weapons with the kinds of yields and lethality of SW weapons by standing in front of each other and shooting or trying to get from behind cover and use your firepower to supress then assault?

There was minimal cover in the Geonosis Arena, or on the Geonosi plane.

Blasters would demand duck and cover

If we're talking about realism, that's not going to do you any good. The nearest B1 will nail you in the head before you're able to duck.

not stand in the face of it and fire and hope you hit something before they hit you. Even the illtrained, illequipped rebel alliance knew better and many of them were civilians most of their lives with no combat experience.

Barring the twenty years struggle against the evil Galactic Empire you mean?

Its not war winning, That's the point. Its very basic. We're not talking about spanking brand new weapons like Machine guns and airplanes in WWI never before seen on the battlefield.

These armies are lead by cops and bankers. War in its entirity is new to them.

We're talking about blasters and replulsorlift vehicles all of which have been around for millennia in the Warsverse. In WWI the commanders had to adapt tactics to weapons they had never faced before. This is not the case on Geonosis. There was nothing new on Geonosis.

War itself is new to these people. The last war was in a time of myth and legend remember.

So in WWII Allied troops need to stand out in the open on DDay and fire into German troops standing out in the open and slowly advance on each other?

Err. Good numbers of them did.

German panzers should have approached slowly while German infantry marched in front of it during a full on assault on open flat ground?

This too has been known to happen when advancing into enemy territory that may be riddled with AT weapons.

LOS weapons does not mean stand out in the open and shoot like you were in the American Revolutionary War. Troops have had LOS weapons since the Bow and arrow and tactics have evolved with capability.

Yeah. Here's the thing though. There is no cover to be had. Your Jedi 'master' tells you to run toward those droids, it doesn't even enter your genemod brain to disobey. You do as you're told by the glorified cop leading you.

A real soldier would have bombed Geonosis from Orbit and said 'Screw Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan,' rather than risk the lives of thousands of clones and that would have been the end of the Clone Wars.

[Pablo Sanchez]

The British at least had to learn this from experience. The French also had a poor grasp of the neccessery tactics. I don't see why biologists, a single specops commando, and a bunch of weapons makers are neccesserily going to come up with war winning tactics.

*snip*

Actually, given that practically no one has a non-LOS weapon, that's exactly what they have to do in order to kill the enemy.

What about just lying your ass down in the dirt and firing from the prone position? That's a simple no-brainer tactic that is incredibly beneficial. It makes you harder to spot, reduces your target profile, and allows you to stabilize your weapon on the ground for more accurate fire. In terrain like Geonosis, a soldier would spend half of his time prone and the other half advancing--with covering fire from other guys who are in the prone position. There's also the idea of advancing from cover-to-cover, which is another tactic so basic that it's pretty much instinctual.

Yet the clone troopers do neither of these things. They stand bolt upright in the face of withering automatic blaster fire and walk forward slowly while firing from the hip. WTF? No amount of inexperience can justify that kind of behavior, because the Kaminoans would have actually had to actively train the clones not to take cover or lie down in the prone position.

[NecronLord]

What about just lying your ass down in the dirt and firing from the prone position?

Jedi: Follow me men *Runs off*
*BRAIN REDUCED clones follow*

That's a simple no-brainer tactic that is incredibly beneficial. It makes you harder to spot, reduces your target profile, and allows you to stabilize your weapon on the ground for more accurate fire. In terrain like Geonosis, a soldier would spend half of his time prone and the other half advancing--with covering fire from other guys who are in the prone position. There's also the idea of advancing from cover-to-cover, which is another tactic so basic that it's pretty much instinctual.

Jedi: Follow me men
These men don't have entirely independant thought. They're just going to do as their 'generals' who happen to be glorified cops with white-knight complexes the size of Acclamators, tell them.

Yet the clone troopers do neither of these things. They stand bolt upright in the face of withering automatic blaster fire and walk forward slowly while firing from the hip. WTF? No amount of inexperience can justify that kind of behavior, because the Kaminoans would have actually had to actively train the clones not to take cover or lie down in the prone position.

Jedi: Follow me men.
MENTALLY LIMITED CLONE: Yes sir.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Jedi: Follow me men.
MENTALLY LIMITED CLONE: Yes sir.

It's funny how your argument went from "the Republic doesn't know any better" to "it's the Jedi's fault!" in just a couple posts.

Regardless, this statement is it's own can of worms. Making your secret elite force out of a bunch of mentally limited drones is completely asinine for two reasons. Firstly because that kind of person makes an absolutely shitty soldier--an ideal soldier is smart, independent without being unruly, and aggressive (look at what the USMC turns people into to get an idea). Secondly because they could have gotten exactly the same result from just building droids. Why go the extra mile to get clones if you're just going to be getting drones anyway? I don't buy it.

[Stravo]

Necronlord by stating that a clone is a retarded order follower elimates the whole point of using clones - the flexibility and initiatve that a droid cannot have.

Jedi: "Follow me."

Ok, a group of clones follow the Jedi while a shitload go to one knee and the rest go prone and lay down some serious suppressive fire, the group behind the Jedi can then depend on the Jedi blaster deflecting as added protection.

[NecronLord]

It's funny how your argument went from "the Republic doesn't know any better" to "it's the Jedi's fault!" in just a couple posts.

Err. The Jedi are the generals who have no experience in actual combat I was reffering to. When did a Jedi last fight a war? Oh yes. 1000 years ago.

EDIT: The argument is thus: Their crapness is partly in-built by Lord Sidious. It is also partly because they are lead by glorified cops who have no idea how to fight a war. The crapness of the Battle-Droids is because they are run by bankers and manufacturers, who cut corners at every opportunity and hope that quantity will win over quality. They too are acting on the orders of Lord Sidious, and their real goal is also to simply get the Jedi killed off.

Regardless, this statement is it's own can of worms. Making your secret elite force out of a bunch of mentally limited drones is completely asinine for two reasons. Firstly because that kind of person makes an absolutely shitty soldier--an ideal soldier is smart, independent without being unruly, and aggressive (look at what the USMC turns people into to get an idea). Secondly because they could have gotten exactly the same result from just building droids. Why go the extra mile to get clones if you're just going to be getting drones anyway? I don't buy it.

Because the army's specifications were laid out by Darth Sidious. The bad guy? Who wants clones that will not quesion any order he gives to say, dispose of the Senate, create a personal dictatorship, or crush a rebellious world. He doesn't care if they're not that great. He runs the enemy, and can dictate how the war goes as he pleases.

The ARCs are sent on missions with the Jedi, correct? Do you think Darth Sidious really wants amazingly competant soldiers watching the Jedi's backs, or do you think he would actually rather like the CIS droids to kill the Jedi? That's right, he wants the jedi dead.

Necronlord by stating that a clone is a retarded order follower elimates the whole point of using clones - the flexibility and initiatve that a droid cannot have.

Jedi: "Follow me."

Ok, a group of clones follow the Jedi while a shitload go to one knee and the rest go prone and lay down some serious suppressive fire, the group behind the Jedi can then depend on the Jedi blaster deflecting as added protection.

Taun We's marketing babble for the clones being inherently more creative than droids is bunk. Who is more creative in their behaviour, R2-D2 or a clone?

She then goes on to state that the clones were modified to be 'less independant' and 'more docile.' Just because Taun We says so, doesn't make it so. Imagine this scene:

Taun We: "Well, actually, they're really not that great. Their independance is a myth. They're essentially drones designed to crap out on you in a combat situation."
Taun-We's-idea-of-Obi-Wan: "Well fuck. Order cancelled. You now have a few billion clones to get rid of."

[Illuminatus Primus]

LOS weapons probably means WWI or Boer war style tactics maybe modified by the use of air cavalry and armored vehicles. Hybridized with WW2.

Look for combat in the Persian Gulf; the rifle engagements across the sandy wastes ought to be a decent analogue.

[NecronLord]

Addendum: The whole point of clones is not to win the war. The whole point of the clones is to get the Jedi killed. Their being morons does this quite effectively.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Err. The Jedi are the generals who have no experience in actual combat I was reffering to. When did a Jedi last fight a war? Oh yes. 1000 years ago.

The commanding generals who picked them up the day before are responsible for their small-unit tactics and general training? You're just degenerating into apologism and generalized military stupidity.

Regardless, this statement is it's own can of worms. Making your secret elite force out of a bunch of mentally limited drones is completely asinine for two reasons. Firstly because that kind of person makes an absolutely shitty soldier--an ideal soldier is smart, independent without being unruly, and aggressive (look at what the USMC turns people into to get an idea).

All they are said to be is more obedient than the original. Nothing about your "mentally limited" exaggeration (strawman). In fact, those types of soldiers are precisely the best kind for maintaining small unit cohesion. Innovative tactics, approaches, and attacks are the responsibility of the officers (non-commissioned and commissioned).

Secondly because they could have gotten exactly the same result from just building droids. Why go the extra mile to get clones if you're just going to be getting drones anyway? I don't buy it.

You can't use Battle Meditation with droids. The clones played perfectly into the Force, particularly the Sith's plan with it. And why worry about that when the enemy builds shitty droids in too few numbers?

Because the army's specifications were laid out by Darth Sidious. The bad guy? Who wants clones that will not quesion any order he gives to say, dispose of the Senate, create a personal dictatorship, or crush a rebellious world. He doesn't care if they're not that great. He runs the enemy, and can dictate how the war goes as he pleases.

More strawman exaggerations.

Taun We's marketing babble for the clones being inherently more creative than droids is bunk. Who is more creative in their behaviour, R2-D2 or a clone?

Why not use context? The clones are obviously superior the models of battle droid then being mass produced and fielded. Do we field soldiers that are superior to all opponents, including hypothetical realizations?

She then goes on to state that the clones were modified to be 'less independant' and 'more docile.' Just because Taun We says so, doesn't make it so.

Individual clones have appeared relatively normal and about as innovative as you'd expect of a grunt, combined with unwavering loyalty, incorruptible allegiance, and unwavering obedience to high command.

The problem is with their innate small-unit and individual tactics training. These clones should've been told to lay on their stomachs behind rocks and cover and hill side and expose only their heads while using their evidentally longer range to pick off the shitty droids with impunity. This is not the individual troopers' responsibility, but the Kaminoans' entire programme.

[NecronLord]

The commanding generals who picked them up the day before are responsible for their small-unit tactics and general training? You're just degenerating into apologism and generalized military stupidity.

The same generals who you see actually leading groups of clones in foolish charges off into the middle of the fire. Yes. Them. Did we see much, barring the shooting down of the Trade Fed Core Ship, commanding actually done by anyone but a Jedi? Not really.

All they are said to be is more obedient than the original. Nothing about your "mentally limited" exaggeration (strawman).

"Clones can think creatively you will find they immensely superior to droids. Whe take great pride in our combat education and training programs."
The same one that produced the clones that march into fire like automata. While this is an impressive feat of discipline, it is not useful in a soldier. The out-of-universe explanation is that they wanted it to look cool. The in-universe explanation is that the clones are not all Lama Su (my mistake earlier BTW) cracks them up to be in terms of independance and combat effectiveness.

Why is this? Because Sidious doesn't care about producing a clone army that is effective. Just one that does the job of creating a grand war. Everyone else who may realise its faults is either too inept to do so (Going back to the original point, most of the armies leaders don't know what they're doing), or insufficiently important to get these major flaws changed.

In fact, those types of soldiers are precisely the best kind for maintaining small unit cohesion. Innovative tactics, approaches, and attacks are the responsibility of the officers (non-commissioned and commissioned).

The clones are the officers. RotS: ROTS ICS gives at least one clone the rank of Major, so we know they keep this role throughout the war. Then there's 'Commander Cody.'

You can't use Battle Meditation with droids. The clones played perfectly into the Force, particularly the Sith's plan with it. And why worry about that when the enemy builds shitty droids in too few numbers?

Why worry at all? You are Darth Sidious. You control both armies. You win no matter what happens. Create a grand spectacle of people dying, kill off the jedi, and roll around in your new galaxy sized back yard laughing and playing with your persian cat.

Either side being better than the other would be harmful to that idea. Hence, you use the lowest common denominator for both sides.

More strawman exaggerations.

That Sidious' main objective with the clone wars was to polish off the Jedi, and that he had control of both armies? I do not think so.

Why not use context? The clones are obviously superior the models of battle droid then being mass produced and fielded. Do we field soldiers that are superior to all opponents, including hypothetical realizations?

He says that they are superior to droids in general. All types of battledroid seen in AotC are mass produced and fielded. They are not superior to the better droids, Lama Su does not mention this, he simply says that they are better than 'droids'. His agenda is to impress Obi-Wan. He is not going to mention the shortfallings of his product is he?

Individual clones have appeared relatively normal and about as innovative as you'd expect of a grunt, combined with unwavering loyalty, incorruptible allegiance, and unwavering obedience to high command.

Barring that they walk forward toward the enemy like the borg.

The problem is with their innate small-unit and individual tactics training.

A problem is that. it is not the only problem. The Jedi are not soldiers. The Jedi are given command of the clones. The strategies employed by the Jedi are moronic. This is a serious flaw with the clone army's C&C structure.

These clones should've been told to lay on their stomachs behind rocks and cover and hill side and expose only their heads while using their evidentally longer range to pick off the shitty droids with impunity. This is not the individual troopers' responsibility, but the Kaminoans' entire programme.

I never said it wasn't. The fact that the programme produced troopers that are incapable of reacting on simple instincts (get-under-cover-when-shot-at is after all, an instinct even human civillians have) that should save their lives. Nothing is the individual soldier's responsibility. He just does as he is told. The people telling him what to do, Kaminoan and Jedi happen to be hopelessly inept. When have I denied this?

And the Jedi running in front of them swinging lightsabers after telling them to 'follow me' (would you like screencaps of this happening) are of course not responsible in-universe for their lack of intelligent small unit tactics on Geonosis. A proper officer corps, rather than the ultra-obedient clones - they're not just infantrymen remember - would have kindly asked Yoda to let them excecute the arena rescue, then not send their men off to die in a mass infantry charge, but instead use their obvious air superiority to eradicate the CIS army, Dooku, and the droid production plant with some of that 200 gigaton goodness.

[NecronLord]

Summed up, my explanation is as follows.

1. Sidious controls the entire situation on the galactic scale.
2. He doesn't care about making effective armies. Indeed, if the clones were too effective, his plan to create a drawn out war and kill the Jedi would suffer because of it.
3. He doesn't care about the effectiveness of the droid armies. So long as the battles are grand and epic enough to create the showpiece he wants to further his plans with regard to introducing the empire.
4. High casualty rates probably amuse him. Supposedly he practically orgasmed when Alderann went off after all.
5. The Jedi are not effective soldiers. They do not know how to lead armies effectively.
6. The Neiomodians/Geonosians/Banking Clan/Whatever are also not effective soldiers, they do not have significant experience of leading armies either.
7. The Clones behaviour is in part due to the poor quality of the training programme that made them, and in part due to the poor leadership of the Jedi.
8. The clones are not independant enough to object to the poor leadership of the Jedi.
9. The droids are not independant enough to object.

[NecronLord]

Let's not forget, this army (the clone army in this case, though I don't doubt that the droids are guilty of it too) uses mechas for christ's sake. Even with Saxton's explanation of mechas being able to resist anti-repulsor effects, the Republic army at Geonosis has apparently forgotten the fucking wheel!

[Illuminatus Primus]

The same generals who you see actually leading groups of clones in foolish charges off into the middle of the fire. Yes. Them. Did we see much, barring the shooting down of the Trade Fed Core Ship, commanding actually done by anyone but a Jedi? Not really.

I suppose that WWI troops learned that they wouldn't be engaging along Napoleanic lines when they arrived at the trenches and got their first orders? You're a dipshit.

Their style of combat is formed by their training regimen, not their field officers. You seem determined to demonstrate empirically that you're bluffing your way through this subject.

"Clones can think creatively you will find they immensely superior to droids. Whe take great pride in our combat education and training programs."

The same one that produced the clones that march into fire like automata. While this is an impressive feat of discipline, it is not useful in a soldier. The out-of-universe explanation is that they wanted it to look cool. The in-universe explanation is that the clones are not all Lama Su (my mistake earlier BTW) cracks them up to be in terms of independance and combat effectiveness.

Their mental accuity is designed by their ability to disobey one of their design imperatives (obedience to higher authority) and to formulate their own more appropiate combat regimen ad hoc?

No - it was the job of the TRAINING REGIMEN, which the Kaminoans somehow screwed up and couldn't bother to hire advisors from any of the major training academies or veteran sector military men.

The only in-universe explanation that works is broad incompetence, stupidity, and arrogance by the Kaminoans.

As for the ARCs, they were PERSONALLY trained by Jango Fett, who was a vetaran special forces/small unit commander, and particularly gifted in exactly what he was to teach them.

Why is this? Because Sidious doesn't care about producing a clone army that is effective. Just one that does the job of creating a grand war. Everyone else who may realise its faults is either too inept to do so (Going back to the original point, most of the armies leaders don't know what they're doing), or insufficiently important to get these major flaws changed.

The flaws seem to be much changed by later in the war; note the use of carbines in terrain with limited line-of-sight and heavy foilage and more appropriate combined arms. I suspect this is trickle down from volunteer forces, Jedi learning the hard way, and the ARCs and Clone Commanders.

Anyhow, any contrivance by Sidious in intentionally making an incompetently trained army does not make any sense, and it is not reasonable to suggest no one in the galaxy knows how to engage in decent military battles. Those are both stupid points.

The clones are the officers. RotS: ROTS ICS gives at least one clone the rank of Major, so we know they keep this role throughout the war. Then there's 'Commander Cody.'

Yeah and officers are not as obedient and subservient as troopers and NCOs. This is especially emphasized emphatically in reference to the Clone Commanders.

I'm sick of people who've seen precisely twenty minutes of evidence and a trailer (purist like you) and seek to propose all these idiotic assertions to those who've seen more of the evidence. Just defer to those who know better after being corrected. Its less obnoxious.

Why worry at all? You are Darth Sidious. You control both armies. You win no matter what happens. Create a grand spectacle of people dying, kill off the jedi, and roll around in your new galaxy sized back yard laughing and playing with your persian cat.

Either side being better than the other would be harmful to that idea. Hence, you use the lowest common denominator for both sides.

That makes no sense. Through manipulation of intel data you'd still be able to control the war without small numbers of shitty droids and incompetently trained clones. You're just reaching and its obvious.

That Sidious' main objective with the clone wars was to polish off the Jedi, and that he had control of both armies? I do not think so.

And that requires incompetently trained clones and shitty droids? Its fucking stupid and only each side being loaded intrinsically and accidentally with morons and idiots caused it. You're reaching. There's no need for shit fighting to control the war.

He says that they are superior to droids in general. All types of battledroid seen in AotC are mass produced and fielded. They are not superior to the better droids, Lama Su does not mention this, he simply says that they are better than 'droids'. His agenda is to impress Obi-Wan. He is not going to mention the shortfallings of his product is he?

They are superior to both SBD and BDs. Its obvious he's refering to the humanoid battle droid troopers.

Barring that they walk forward toward the enemy like the borg.

Shitty tactics is the fault of poor training regimen. Would you have them discover the proper tactics automatically on the spot? You're clueless.

A problem is that. it is not the only problem. The Jedi are not soldiers. The Jedi are given command of the clones. The strategies employed by the Jedi are moronic. This is a serious flaw with the clone army's C&C structure.

The Jedi are not responsible for a shitty training regimen resulting in a Napoleanic-style of tactics being employed by the clones. The Jedi did not train them all in a few days. Sorry, that's idiotic.

I never said it wasn't. The fact that the programme produced troopers that are incapable of reacting on simple instincts (get-under-cover-when-shot-at is after all, an instinct even human civillians have) that should save their lives.

Yet they did so anyway. Is it more likely that Lama Su's descriptions were knowingly counterfactual (canon ought to be taken at face value first) or that the Kaminoans taught the same unnatural tactics that were taught in earlier phases of our history as a training regimen because they didn't know better?

The clones obviously attacked that way because they believed that was an appropriate way to attack the enemy. That's awful training.

Nothing is the individual soldier's responsibility. He just does as he is told. The people telling him what to do, Kaminoan and Jedi happen to be hopelessly inept. When have I denied this?

Jedi have basically no imput by Geonosis. Mace Windu is responsible for the 192,000 clones ingrained-by-training tactics.

And the Jedi running in front of them swinging lightsabers after telling them to 'follow me' (would you like screencaps of this happening) are of course not responsible in-universe for their lack of intelligent small unit tactics on Geonosis. A proper officer corps, rather than the ultra-obedient clones - they're not just infantrymen remember - would have kindly asked Yoda to let them excecute the arena rescue, then not send their men off to die in a mass infantry charge, but instead use their obvious air superiority to eradicate the CIS army, Dooku, and the droid production plant with some of that 200 gigaton goodness.

Again you prove yourself to be a dipshit. The catacombs included civilians, and if you read Tech Comm, the security shields would've blocked the shots. Pay attention.

[VT-16]

These clones should've been told to lay on their stomachs behind rocks and cover and hill side

Most of the battle area was flat and rockless. Do tell how they would be able to do this?

[Lord Revan]

These clones should've been told to lay on their stomachs behind rocks and cover and hill side

Most of the battle area was flat and rockless. Do tell how they would be able to do this?

the ground is a friend.

[The Original Nex]

These clones should've been told to lay on their stomachs behind rocks and cover and hill side

Most of the battle area was flat and rockless. Do tell how they would be able to do this?

There were large bluffs all around the area they could have staged attacks from.

[NecronLord]

I suppose that WWI troops learned that they wouldn't be engaging along Napoleanic lines when they arrived at the trenches and got their first orders? You're a dipshit.

Oddly enough and entirely off topic, I've seen interviews with WWI soldiers who were told to go over the top, and advance at a walking pace toward the enemy even when under fire. The British conscripts were not effectively trained in trench warfare, as the huge casualties caused by the poor quality of British (esp compared to German) trenches shows.

Their style of combat is formed by their training regimen, not their field officers. You seem determined to demonstrate empirically that you're bluffing your way through this subject.

I know this. However, the choice of 'send the infantry forward to attack an enemy who we have no pressing reason to advance upon, rather than use our strengths and simply use our heavy weapons to destroy the core ships on the ground, then pull out and use seismic charges to destroy any droid army on the surface' is the fault of the Jedi.

Their mental accuity is designed by their ability to disobey one of their design imperatives (obedience to higher authority) and to formulate their own more appropiate combat regimen ad hoc?

No - it was the job of the TRAINING REGIMEN, which the Kaminoans somehow screwed up and couldn't bother to hire advisors from any of the major training academies

What major training academies? There was no standing army of the Republic until this time. While some systems may have had armies, there is nowhere they can go that is equivalent to Cardia in order to recruit trainers for a Galactic Army. The fact that the Clone Army's training is inneffective is beyond dispute. And I do not blame the Jedi for this. I blame the Kaminoans. What I do blame the Jedi for is thinking that an infantry charge, they lead it remember, across open ground is a good idea.

or veteran sector military men.

Again. No significant wars have been fought for a thousand years. The Jedi go and solve disputes before they get that far, remember? There is a reason Amidala found an invasion so unthinkable in TPM.

The only in-universe explanation that works is broad incompetence, stupidity, and arrogance by the Kaminoans.

Again. I have never denied that. However, the Jedi are also incompetant. Can you get this into your head: It is possible to say that the Jedi are incompetant without claiming that he Jedi are responsible for the poor training system of the Kaminoans. The Jedi are poor soldiers for not simply killing Dooku off the bat. The Jedi are incompetant soldiers for walking into a perfect trap like the Arena. The jedi are incompetant for leading an infantry charge across open ground, something which they only survived because of the apparent lack of fully-automatic weapons in the CIS forces.

As for the ARCs, they were PERSONALLY trained by Jango Fett, who was a vetaran special forces/small unit commander, and particularly gifted in exactly what he was to teach them.

So? The ARCs don't suck as badly as their lesser brethren. What difference does this make to the overall picture? The inconsistancy of their superior combat skills compared with Jango's poor judgement can easily be explained in any number of ways. It really isn't an issue.

The flaws seem to be much changed by later in the war; note the use of carbines in terrain with limited line-of-sight and heavy foilage and more appropriate combined arms. I suspect this is trickle down from volunteer forces, Jedi learning the hard way, and the ARCs and Clone Commanders.

Sounds reasonable.

Anyhow, any contrivance by Sidious in intentionally making an incompetently trained army does not make any sense, and it is not reasonable to suggest no one in the galaxy knows how to engage in decent military battles. Those are both stupid points.

Sidious doesn't care how good the armies are. He cares about making a grand spectacle so he can say 'two billion clones and two hundred jedi died today in this Great War,' I need more Emergency Powers (TM). For that, numerous poor quality droids are good, as is an Army that won't walk all over them in under a month.

TPM makes it quite clear that invasions are somewhere between 'incredibly rare' and 'unknown.' There is no broard base of experience in war. More to the point, the Jedi are not trained as generals. The Seperatist leaders are not trained as generals. No one in the command structure that we has seen, maybe excluding Grievous, is an experienced military leader. I do not suggest that no one in the galaxy knows how to engage in decent military battles. I claim that neither side has experienced leaders.

Yeah and officers are not as obedient and subservient as troopers and NCOs. This is especially emphasized emphatically in reference to the Clone Commanders.

I'm sick of people who've seen precisely twenty minutes of evidence and a trailer (purist like you)

What trailer? The RotS trailer. I assue you I have seen far more of the clone wars than that.

And no. I am not a purist. I do not claim that the EU is non-canon. Largely shit, yes. Non-canon, no. I do not claim that it should be ignored in debates unless it is contradicted by the canon. I do in fact, think both the recent G level canon and the C level are shit, but this is entirely beside the point.

and seek to propose all these idiotic assertions to those who've seen more of the evidence. Just defer to those who know better after being corrected. Its less obnoxious.

You tell me where the clones have been seen preforming better in the canon. You tell me where the clone commanders have been said to be a seperate breed. Then I will conceed. When you get around to justifying your evidence, then I will. When you just say 'It is so. Accept my authoritah!' I am afraid I am not going to believe you.

That makes no sense. Through manipulation of intel data you'd still be able to control the war without small numbers of shitty droids and incompetently trained clones. You're just reaching and its obvious.

Okay then. You find a better reason for it. Remember, moron, this is an entirely speculative debate - "Anyway how do we explain this Napoleanic state of affairs" - in other words "how do we excuse the ineptitude and poor research of the film-makers" not - "what does IP's big book of apocrythal knowledge say."

And that requires incompetently trained clones and shitty droids? Its fucking stupid and only each side being loaded intrinsically and accidentally with morons and idiots caused it. You're reaching. There's no need for shit fighting to control the war.

There is shit fighting. It must be explained. You do it better then. Come on. The Kaminoans suck is not a better explanation, because it is precisely what I have been saying you little shitstain.

They are superior to both SBD and BDs. Its obvious he's refering to the humanoid battle droid troopers.

I am informed that Medstar claims the standard clone is inferior to a SBD.

Shitty tactics is the fault of poor training regimen. Would you have them discover the proper tactics automatically on the spot? You're clueless.

Yes. Humans instructed to walk slowly towards their enemies have generally discovered the concept of cover rather quickly, when not being shot down on the spot.

The Jedi are not responsible for a shitty training regimen resulting in a Napoleanic-style of tactics being employed by the clones. The Jedi did not train them all in a few days. Sorry, that's idiotic.

Yet they did so anyway. Is it more likely that Lama Su's descriptions were knowingly counterfactual (canon ought to be taken at face value first) or that the Kaminoans taught the same unnatural tactics that were taught in earlier phases of our history as a training regimen because they didn't know better?

Guess what. That is exactly what I have been saying. The Kaminoans are incompetant. The reason for the poor tactics is because of the essentially clean-slate nature of war in the Early Clone Wars. Neither the Kaminoans nor the Geonosians know how to make a better army, the armies consequently suck on both sides, and Palpatine, the one who potentially has the knowledge and authority to put either side right, doesn't care to do so.

The clones obviously attacked that way because they believed that was an appropriate way to attack the enemy. That's awful training.

The Jedi were leading them in this manouver. Watch the film. The Jedi are leading squads of clones in the death charge. Again, in the commentry, we want the Jedi to be seen leading this army. Yes, the tactics come from the jedi. The training comes from the Kaminoans. Both are at fault. Both suck. The Kaminoans perhaps more, because they are supposedly in this business.

Jedi have basically no imput by Geonosis. Mace Windu is responsible for the 192,000 clones ingrained-by-training tactics.

Guess what? I'm not blaming the Jedi for the training. I blame the Kaminoans. I blame the Jedi for a part of the general idiocy of the Republic attack at Geonosis. I blame the Kaminoans for the overall poor quality of the Republic army.

Again you prove yourself to be a dipshit. The catacombs included civilians, and if you read Tech Comm, the security shields would've blocked the shots. Pay attention.

I hate to reveal this, but Tech Comm is not canon. Is there any actual evidence of these shields barring the lack of orbital strikes? We will for now, ignore that, given the ability of the Republic to deliver heavy ordanance to the location of the Trade Federation Core Ships, these shields have clearly been bypassed either way.

1 - The civillians are supposedly irrelevant. And barely sentient according to Lucas in the commentry ("These were the guys that got blown up on the Death Star, but they're just big Termites, so it doesn't matter" - Yes. I know that's moronic and no Geonosians were seen on either Death Star, but hey, that's Lucas for you.)
2 - The awesomely powerful Star Wars tech base is incapable of avoiding damaging civillian areas with orbital bombardment? And how does that change the fact that it was
3 - They have the ability to deliver rockets direct to the site of the core ships. Why are they incapable of simply holding the troops back and delivering heavy weapons in this manner?

Where does this bizzare turd that I 'Claim the Jedi were responsible for clone training' come from?

No. We're saying that their excuse for being retards is that they haven't fought a war in the last thousand years. If the last guy in the UK to fight a battle was William the Conquerer, I doubt I would know much about warfare.

Guess what. Here is where this came up. I was talking about everyone in the GFFA, not just the Jedi. The Kaminoans haven't seen Galactic war. The Geonosians haven't. No one involved has a broard base of military experience.

[Zwinmar]

Infantry..well i think i know it pretty well considering i was marine infantry for 4 years.

Anyways, In every war film I watch, I can pick out flaws in what they did, what comes to mind is "BlackHawk Down", they knew better and had been trained better, but they still did some dumb crap.

Would I get on like and charge enemy fire? hell no, my goal aint to die for my country, its to make the other poor dumb bastard die for his. Id be laying on the ground, lighting em up with my weapon.

But my point is this, unless you have actually been there and done that, you do not understand how to be infantry, which is were a lot of FILM MAKERS, go wrong. They simply dont understand.

So yeah, jedi leading charges=stupid, but who is more stupid? the guy who leads or the guy who follows?

[VT-16]

The guys who follow are clones trained to obey, the guy/girl who leads, has a lightsabre.

In other words, not applicable to RL Earth combat.

[Knife]

Infantry..well i think i know it pretty well considering i was marine infantry for 4 years.

Anyways, In every war film I watch, I can pick out flaws in what they did, what comes to mind is "BlackHawk Down", they knew better and had been trained better, but they still did some dumb crap.

Would I get on like and charge enemy fire? hell no, my goal aint to die for my country, its to make the other poor dumb bastard die for his. Id be laying on the ground, lighting em up with my weapon.

But my point is this, unless you have actually been there and done that, you do not understand how to be infantry, which is were a lot of FILM MAKERS, go wrong. They simply dont understand.

So yeah, jedi leading charges=stupid, but who is more stupid? the guy who leads or the guy who follows?

Can't comment on the clonewar's cartoon since I haven't watched them but as to Geonosis;

It was a combat landing on hostile territory. The Clones had to take and atleast hold land long enough to get a foot hold. Aggressive tactitcs would be the thought of the day.

Granted, in modern US tactics, a group would 'bound' while being agressive but looking at the tech level, the clones had a 'heavy armor' and by comparison to Jango's armor, less flexable.

It's possible that their tactics of recon by fire is developed because of their lack of flexibiltiy in their armor but 'superior' protection.

We do see gunships landing troops and hear about 'assembly area's' so the clones did secure a FEBA so support troops and equipment would land and assemble behind the main assualt force.

We know that after the intial landing, the driod army counter attacked, and the heavy elements of the Clone army came up and supported the Clone line and repelled the attack.

At that point, the droid army was fighting a rear guard action while the Clones continued to advance. Again, in modern US doctrine, you'd still bound, the basics of fire and manuver, but I don't think the Clone equipment is designed for that, rather a more charge in.

So, basically, why their small unit tactics are not really up to spec for modern US doctrine, there larger overall tactics seem sound.

[SCVN 2812]

Its worth mentioning the Kaminoans and Geonosians stand to make a killing (no pun intended) off of selling inferior clone and droid armies which will suffer massive attrition and need constant replenishment. As for alternatives to both, after 1,000 years of peace, there may not be that many reliable, large scale arms / armies dealers left. Politically, who would you rather send out to die in huge numbers: dumb, dirt cheap robots / an entire army with the face of a mercenary scumbag or sons, daughters and other forms of progeny?