Arnold Vs Teachers Unions

[Chmee]

Arnold played the 'wealthy celebrity becomes politician' game, and there's no place easier to play it than California (see Reagan, Ronald) ... it's a little different than the 'wealthy lawyer becomes politician' and 'wealthy corporate exec becomes politician' games, but it's still an old game. Arnold jump-started his place in the game by marrying into a powerful political family instead of a powerful something-else family, but let's not kid ourselves that Arnold hasn't been playing a game pointed at politics for quite a long time.

[Petrosjko]

Thing is, the celebrity to politician gig only gives so much of a grace period before the press hounds start looking to cannabalize them.

The thing I've observed with Schwartzeneggar is his extreme calculation. When it comes to PR, public statements and presentation, this guy is very cunning about it. The 'girly men' thing comes to mind... he knew exactly what the response to that would be... protests from the predictable quarters, counterbalanced by public adoration.

The stunt he pulled in announcing his candidacy, his handling of the press, the guy screams Machiavelli to me.

[Chmee]

Thing is, the celebrity to politician gig only gives so much of a grace period before the press hounds start looking to cannabalize them.

The thing I've observed with Schwartzeneggar is his extreme calculation. When it comes to PR, public statements and presentation, this guy is very cunning about it. The 'girly men' thing comes to mind... he knew exactly what the response to that would be... protests from the predictable quarters, counterbalanced by public adoration.

The stunt he pulled in announcing his candidacy, his handling of the press, the guy screams Machiavelli to me.

Well, the 'celebrity politician' usually has an advantage there -- his whole prior career was built around an intimate knowledge of publicity and manipulating publicity. Image is everything, and nobody knows how to manufacture image like Hollywood.

[Petrosjko]

Well, the 'celebrity politician' usually has an advantage there -- his whole prior career was built around an intimate knowledge of publicity and manipulating publicity. Image is everything, and nobody knows how to manufacture image like Hollywood.

True, but usually the typical celebrity gets his image from the Hollywood promo machine. Outside of that, they can fall very fast, very hard.

Arnold, on the other hand, seems to be very intimately aware of how to work the process.

[Chmee]

Well, the 'celebrity politician' usually has an advantage there -- his whole prior career was built around an intimate knowledge of publicity and manipulating publicity. Image is everything, and nobody knows how to manufacture image like Hollywood.

True, but usually the typical celebrity gets his image from the Hollywood promo machine. Outside of that, they can fall very fast, very hard.

Arnold, on the other hand, seems to be very intimately aware of how to work the process.

Oh you have to give him credit there, he's had that skill for a long time ... there weren't other bodybuilders creating a 'Pumping Iron' film to launch themselves into Hollywood.

[Shroom Man 777]

Petro, the way you're saying these things makes Arnold seem very scary.

[Lagmonster]

Petro, the way you're saying these things makes Arnold seem very scary.

The application of an individual's intelligence is always something to be afraid of...if you aren't smart enough to figure out what the impacts of that application are.

[Darth Wong]

Arnold played the 'wealthy celebrity becomes politician' game, and there's no place easier to play it than California (see Reagan, Ronald) ... it's a little different than the 'wealthy lawyer becomes politician' and 'wealthy corporate exec becomes politician' games, but it's still an old game. Arnold jump-started his place in the game by marrying into a powerful political family instead of a powerful something-else family, but let's not kid ourselves that Arnold hasn't been playing a game pointed at politics for quite a long time.

Irrelevant to the fact that he's not playing the same game the other scumfucks are playing, which is to pander continuously to special interests every day and every night until the taxpayers' asses are too sore to sit down. His personal popularity allows him to face down protesters and special-interest lobbyists in a manner that a normal politician cannot afford to do.

[Petrosjko]

Petro, the way you're saying these things makes Arnold seem very scary.

Honestly, he does spook me a little. He's smarter than the average politician. The announcement trick, the public slapping down of Buffet, so on and so forth. Like I said, calculation.

Your GWBs and Kerrys of this world are fairly predictable in a lot of ways, because they're not very bright. That's why they end up politics in the first place, usually.

Maybe I'm overestimating him a bit, but I don't trust a word he says.

[Darth Wong]

Maybe I'm overestimating him a bit, but I don't trust a word he says.

You don't have to. This man is a megalomaniac who takes the long view. He's not thinking of the next election; he's thinking of his place in history. That's actually encouraging because it means he will try to fight against short-term thinking.

[Vendetta]

Maybe I'm overestimating him a bit, but I don't trust a word he says.

You trust anything any other politician says?

[Chmee]

Anybody who thinks that The Arnold doesn't cater to special interests both to get elected and to wield power in California should have declined that last Kool Aid offer ....

He's playing the game, just entering this game means you're playing it. Of course, he's perfected the politician tactic of saying how bad playing the game is ... it's the same chicanery that lets the Bushes, inheritors of 3 generations of northeastern money and political power, talk about the evil of 'Washington insiders' and 'career politicians,' as if they weren't the epitomy of both.

You don't have to have a good game to win at politics, but you have to talk a good game ... and actors sure can do that. The Governator isn't an economics or policy expert, but he plays one on TV ... and to get elected, that's often good enough.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Is it just me or is 95% of Chmee's posts long-winded moanfests of how politics and society is corrupt without a constructive and substantive solution or conclusions attached to the end?

[Knife]

Is it just me or is 95% of Chmee's posts long-winded moanfests of how politics and society is corrupt without a constructive and substantive solution or conclusions attached to the end?

I'm still trying to figure out how he got to Bush via Arnold?

[Chmee]

Is it just me or is 95% of Chmee's posts long-winded moanfests of how politics and society is corrupt without a constructive and substantive solution or conclusions attached to the end?

I'm still trying to figure out how he got to Bush via Arnold?

Well, it could be their shared love of selling an image to get elected, their shared disconnect between words and actions, or just possibly the number of times they kiss each other's ass to further their careers .... an image I sincerely hope will soon be erased from my short-term memory.

[Knife]

Well, it could be their shared love of selling an image to get elected, their shared disconnect between words and actions, or just possibly the number of times they kiss each other's ass to further their careers .... an image I sincerely hope will soon be erased from my short-term memory.

Funny, using that set of definitions, you could add every single fucking politician in the world and history.

Arnold's little gift, is that if anything he is pandering to his constituients (what an amazing idea ) rather than the multitudes of fucknut special interests.

So again, I really don't see how the hell you got to Bush via the Govenator, except your obvious problem with being an ideolouge.

[Chmee]

Well, it could be their shared love of selling an image to get elected, their shared disconnect between words and actions, or just possibly the number of times they kiss each other's ass to further their careers .... an image I sincerely hope will soon be erased from my short-term memory.

Funny, using that set of definitions, you could add every single fucking politician in the world and history.

Arnold's little gift, is that if anything he is pandering to his constituients (what an amazing idea ) rather than the multitudes of fucknut special interests.

So again, I really don't see how the hell you got to Bush via the Govenator, except your obvious problem with being an ideolouge.

There seemed to be a train of thought that Arnold was somehow fundamentally different from other politicians, so pointing out an area where he's just like them ... to me, that seemed relevant and hardly a big leap.

As to 'pandering to his constituents,' well yes, they all do that too, in their public statements. Then to get the money to get elected and the clout to get things done in office, they wheel and deal, and it ain't with Joe the Wal-Mart stockboy, it's with groups that somebody will inevitably describe as 'special interests' .... personally I don't see that as evil, just business as usual in politics ..... but I think it's either disingenuous or self-deluding to think that Ah-nold is far from the political norm is this area.

[Knife]

So, since they all do it, I don't every really see the scorn from you to other political parties.

The reason why your tirad against the Govenator and linking him to Bush is funny *in a non hummor type of way* is the two are tottally different in their political issues. The only thing that links them is that they are both Republicans.

So bithcing over Arnold, bubbling over to include Bush, in the hatered of all politicians but never going outside the 'republican' box is disingenuous and self-deluding.

[Chmee]

So, since they all do it, I don't every really see the scorn from you to other political parties.

The reason why your tirad against the Govenator and linking him to Bush is funny *in a non hummor type of way* is the two are tottally different in their political issues. The only thing that links them is that they are both Republicans.

So bithcing over Arnold, bubbling over to include Bush, in the hatered of all politicians but never going outside the 'republican' box is disingenuous and self-deluding.

That would be very insightful if it were even slightly true .... but if you were to read my political posts in more than just this thread (about, um, a Republican) you would see me occasionally heap scorn on those from other parties (Al Bore & Bill 'Self-destruct' Clinton among them) and occasionally praise on those from the 'Publican side (McCain for coming out against his party leadership's judicial nomination hysteria, which I pointed out a whole 2 or 3 days ago). So, I'm sorry if my *actual* beliefs annd statements aren't even slightly related to your charicature of them.

Bush and Schwarzenegger are inextricably linked, simply by benefit of being from the same party, endorsing each other, and sharing certain key policy positions. They also diverge on certain key positions, because after all Arnold is a 'California Republican,' not a Texas Republican.

I'm not bashing Arnold by any means, just asking that people take off the blinders before putting him on some holier-than-politicians pedastal, because he doesn't belong up there. He's a new face to the game, but he's already a fine player, mostly because he has powerful allies, money, and a very bankable name that got him elected in a short-season election that maximized all his advantages.

[Darth Wong]

Chmee, saying that Arnold is no different from any other politician at the same time that he is doing what no other politician in California would ever have the balls to do is not just politically partisan; it's outright denial of reality.

[Chmee]

Chmee, saying that Arnold is no different from any other politician at the same time that he is doing what no other politician in California would ever have the balls to do is not just politically partisan; it's outright denial of reality.

That's a great line from Arnold's campaign office, but if you get past the sloganeering, he's doing what most new governors do -- talk innovation and conciliation during the honeymoon, get down to dealing & slugging it out when the legislature proves intransigent ...

Saying nobody else would 'ever have the balls' is an incredibly short-term view of California history, which has had many governnors with plenty of moxie, chutzpah, cha-cha-cha or whatever you want to call it. Arnold is the new FOTM, huzzah, but he's nothing unprecedented or groundbreaking ... except for the accent and physique. I'll take a low-profile but administratively competent governor over one who looks good in photo ops any day ...

That being said, I wish Arnold and California all the luck in the world in getting their budget turned around, because that would ultimately be good for the rest of the country.

[Knife]

That would be very insightful if it were even slightly true .... but if you were to read my political posts in more than just this thread (about, um, a Republican) you would see me occasionally heap scorn on those from other parties (Al Bore & Bill 'Self-destruct' Clinton among them) and occasionally praise on those from the 'Publican side (McCain for coming out against his party leadership's judicial nomination hysteria, which I pointed out a whole 2 or 3 days ago). So, I'm sorry if my *actual* beliefs annd statements aren't even slightly related to your charicature of them.

I read quite a few of your posts, actually. It's not a rare thing for you and I to banter around a bit in N&P. My charicature of your positions is dead on, you may have taken a position I'm unaware of in some thread, but for the most part you take the Republicans can do no good, positon in almost all of your political posts.

Bush and Schwarzenegger are inextricably linked, simply by benefit of being from the same party, endorsing each other, and sharing certain key policy positions. They also diverge on certain key positions, because after all Arnold is a 'California Republican,' not a Texas Republican.

See you just did it again there. They are not inextricabley linked, they are barely linked, and just by the Republican Party. Arnolds positions usually come out as a fiscal conservative and a social liberal while your nemesis is quite the opposite. Just being in the Republican party *and the same with Democrats* doesn't automatically make you a neo-con or a rabid fundie or a Bushite or what ever lable you wanna put on it.

Like the Dems, the Repubs have various groups inside their party. Unfortuneately, the funides have a handle on it now, but Arnold is so far from that group, funny doesn't even begin to describe it.

I'm not bashing Arnold by any means, just asking that people take off the blinders before putting him on some holier-than-politicians pedastal, because he doesn't belong up there. He's a new face to the game, but he's already a fine player, mostly because he has powerful allies, money, and a very bankable name that got him elected in a short-season election that maximized all his advantages.

He's a new face, a fine player, and is not attached to the usual political machinary that hampers so many other politicians and he know's it and uses it. He is doing what Jesse Ventura did, but with better PR and in a fucking huge state. That makes him something different.

[Petrosjko]

Maybe I'm overestimating him a bit, but I don't trust a word he says.

You trust anything any other politician says?

As much as I believe in the Easter Bunny, sure.

The key difference is that the standard politico is a dumbass who can be counted on to generally toe the party line, because they're largely creations of the party machine and know where their meal ticket comes from. What makes Arnold dangerous is that his celebrity and his cunning in making use of it allows him to take whatever stance is most useful for advancing his personal agenda.

You don't have to. This man is a megalomaniac who takes the long view. He's not thinking of the next election; he's thinking of his place in history. That's actually encouraging because it means he will try to fight against short-term thinking.

When power comes into the hands of a person who takes that approach and happens to be an individual possessed of some ethics and pragmatism, great things are possible. It's just damn difficult to determine beforehand if you're getting one of the great leaders of history or one of the great monsters.

[Petrosjko]

Ghetto edit- Second quote above was DW.

[Chmee]

<snipped because ... we've covered all this ground>

... but you'll find that 'linked' and 'identical' are not synonyms, so you might want to re-read my earlier posts.