What-if situation, could the Feddies pull it off?

[consequences]

Hey, mighty OP writer, what's the size of the wormhole opening?

[Patrick Degan]

Evidence for Q being sensed by someone he did not wish to be sensed by?

Guinan. She did it quite easily in "Q Who?". And Q didn't sense her presence on the Enterprise. He only learned of it when they confronted each other in Ten-Forward.

[Zwinmar]

Reasons the Feds would loose:

1.) Even with the 5 ISD's they would rely on 'tried and true' tactics that they have experienced, this is evident in all military operations example: before world war 2 everyone thought that the battleship would win naval wars. It was until the US was forced to learn carrier tactics after the attack on pearl that these tactics were even really considered. Just like radar wasnt appreciated until it was forced to be appreciated. Therefore the Feds would use what they would later find to be suicidal tactics to attack Starwars ships, such as not bringing the shields up until they are ready to go into battle.

2.) Dispite the wars the Fed's have been part of they have never encountered people as ruthless as the Imps, the only ecception is the borg, who they still try to negotiate with first.

3.) Most of the Fed's top commanders are more diplomatic envoys than they are fighters, granted they do fight but for most thats a last resort when they cant sweet talk their way out. And when you are going up against people that shoot first and ask questions later that isnt a good idea.

4.) How many fed officers would know to roll and ISD (in practice not theory) when a shield collapses?

[Straha]

Reasons the Feds would loose:

1.) Even with the 5 ISD's they would rely on 'tried and true' tactics that they have experienced, this is evident in all military operations example: before world war 2 everyone thought that the battleship would win naval wars. It was until the US was forced to learn carrier tactics after the attack on pearl that these tactics were even really considered. Just like radar wasnt appreciated until it was forced to be appreciated. Therefore the Feds would use what they would later find to be suicidal tactics to attack Starwars ships, such as not bringing the shields up until they are ready to go into battle.

Not true at all. At the time of World War II there were competing theories about the future of naval warfare, and many officers believed that the future lied with Aircraft Carriers. Japan had been using carriers excessivley in China and American officers knew how to use them from American tests with them to. Same thing with Radar, you dimwit, Germany knew how useful it would be, Japan knew how useful it would be and sent diplomatic missions to Germany with the sole purpose of finding out how Radar worked, etc. Further more the Feddies have the entire imperial tactical and strategic manual, and know how they've used them in the past according to the OP, so they would know how to use them just as well as the empire (though they wouldn't be as effective in their use, some things onl come with experience.)

2.) Dispite the wars the Fed's have been part of they have never encountered people as ruthless as the Imps, the only ecception is the borg, who they still try to negotiate with first.

Except they know what's going to happen with the Empire if the Empire gets its way, and they know that if they don't fight they're going to die a horrible death.

4.) How many fed officers would know to roll and ISD (in practice not theory) when a shield collapses?

Anyone who read the technical manual?

I'm not suggesting that the Feddies can win outright, but saying that they're going to lose because of your flawed understanding of history and because of the over-exagerated "Federation Officers score 5s on IQ tests" is bullshit.[/quote]

[NecronLord]

Except they know what's going to happen with the Empire if the Empire gets its way, and they know that if they don't fight they're going to die a horrible death.

This is also true of the Borg, and Janeway at least still tries to warn them off when she outguns them.

[Zwinmar]

Im not the one resorting to name calling:

However, what i do know from personnal experience is that unless you there and doing it, you do not understand how to do it, not practically. Such as, you can read all the manuals on how to be a good infantry man, but until you actually use those skills, you do NOT understand them for shit, training only gets you so far. Second, Most manuals are devoid of rule of thumb, or common sense, practices.

[Straha]

However, what i do know from personnal experience is that unless you there and doing it, you do not understand how to do it, not practically. Such as, you can read all the manuals on how to be a good infantry man, but until you actually use those skills, you do NOT understand them for shit, training only gets you so far.

The federation has TEN YEARS to play around with these new toys. If they wanted to they could whipe out the Borg, Klingon, and anyone else they wanted to for target practice. Yet you're implying that a military service, admitedly run by a bunch of hippies who overdid the LSD back in the day, are just going to sit there with these ships untill D-Day when they'll finally get around to manning the things. That makes no sense.
As I said before they cannot hope to achieve an Imperial rate of efficiency. BUT they can hope to train to a point of confidence, and then use suprise and whatever else they can slap together to their advantage.

Second, Most manuals are devoid of rule of thumb, or common sense, practices.

They also have the complete history of the Empire.They can see and understand everything the Empire has done and they can understand how to change the rules and get a rough idea when to change the rules in a tactical/strategic sense. As for in ship matters, sure it might not have everything that a Imperial Midshipman would learn in the service, but after ten years of use and study and enough crew experience I'm sure they'd pick up quite a bit, especially if they knew their Galaxy was on the line.

[Star-Blighter]

However, what i do know from personnal experience is that unless you there and doing it, you do not understand how to do it, not practically. Such as, you can read all the manuals on how to be a good infantry man, but until you actually use those skills, you do NOT understand them for shit, training only gets you so far.

The federation has TEN YEARS to play around with these new toys. If they wanted to they could whipe out the Borg, Klingon, and anyone else they wanted to for target practice. Yet you're implying that a military service, admitedly run by a bunch of hippies who overdid the LSD back in the day, are just going to sit there with these ships untill D-Day when they'll finally get around to manning the things. That makes no sense.
As I said before they cannot hope to achieve an Imperial rate of efficiency. BUT they can hope to train to a point of confidence, and then use suprise and whatever else they can slap together to their advantage.

Second, Most manuals are devoid of rule of thumb, or common sense, practices.

They also have the complete history of the Empire.They can see and understand everything the Empire has done and they can understand how to change the rules and get a rough idea when to change the rules in a tactical/strategic sense. As for in ship matters, sure it might not have everything that a Imperial Midshipman would learn in the service, but after ten years of use and study and enough crew experience I'm sure they'd pick up quite a bit, especially if they knew their Galaxy was on the line.

Which will mean precisely dick the moment a hyperwave transmission is sent to the Empire's command that the first strike group was wiped out by both imperial ships and alien vessels of an unknown design. Ten years is not enough time to build an industrial and technological base that could even hold a candel to what the Empire is capable of.

There is a saying: Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.

The feds won't likely get a second chance for an ambush, which is what they will need.

[Straha]

Which will mean precisely dick the moment a hyperwave transmission is sent to the Empire's command that the first strike group was wiped out by both imperial ships and alien vessels of an unknown design. Ten years is not enough time to build an industrial and technological base that could even hold a candel to what the Empire is capable of.

There is a saying: Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.

The feds won't likely get a second chance for an ambush, which is what they will need.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I think the best/only chance the feds have after they ambush the initial fleet is to go through the wormhole immeadietly and hope to get lucky against a defense fleet, and them getting that lucky is not likley. What I was objecting to up there was someone saying more or less "The Federation are a pack of buck-toothed morons who wont be able to bother to learn how a Stardestroyer works, or how to use it at all."

[Zwinmar]

Which will mean precisely dick the moment a hyperwave transmission is sent to the Empire's command that the first strike group was wiped out by both imperial ships and alien vessels of an unknown design. Ten years is not enough time to build an industrial and technological base that could even hold a candel to what the Empire is capable of.

There is a saying: Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.

The feds won't likely get a second chance for an ambush, which is what they will need.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I think the best/only chance the feds have after they ambush the initial fleet is to go through the wormhole immeadietly and hope to get lucky against a defense fleet, and them getting that lucky is not likley. What I was objecting to up there was someone saying more or less "The Federation are a pack of buck-toothed morons who wont be able to bother to learn how a Stardestroyer works, or how to use it at all."

Actually, they are a bunch of hippy moron's, the majority dont even know how to pilot manually, the average boyscout would be able to beat them if they didnt have their technobabble. But thats beside the point.

I really think that the fed's would sit around on their thumbs until they were actually attacked, then there would be a big rush to get the ISD's operational, ie..but back together cause they couldnt figure out how the technology works, which in some cases would be too simple for them to even remotely comprehend.

[Scrubula]

Actually, they are a bunch of hippy moron's, the majority dont even know how to pilot manually, the average boyscout would be able to beat them if they didnt have their technobabble. But thats beside the point.

Even Starfleet cadets can fight in HtH against 3-1 odds against most races and hold their own. And all starfleet personel can pilot manually, it's covered in their training, despite your moronic ranting. God damn, have you ever even watched any Trek, or are you just too busy wanking away to the ICS all day?

...a hyperwave transmission is sent to the Empire's command...

Getting a transmission through the wormhole that the Feds have been preparing for 10 years, not too likely. The first wave of imperial ships through the wormhole aren't even gonna see any ships, they would most likely be torn apart in record time by defensive platforms and mines.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually, they are a bunch of hippy moron's, the majority dont even know how to pilot manually, the average boyscout would be able to beat them if they didnt have their technobabble. But thats beside the point.

Even Starfleet cadets can fight in HtH against 3-1 odds against most races and hold their own. And all starfleet personel can pilot manually, it's covered in their training, despite your moronic ranting. God damn, have you ever even watched any Trek, or are you just too busy wanking away to the ICS all day?

Care to provide an example instead of going "I'm telling you that..."?

...a hyperwave transmission is sent to the Empire's command...

Getting a transmission through the wormhole that the Feds have been preparing for 10 years, not too likely. The first wave of imperial ships through the wormhole aren't even gonna see any ships, they would most likely be torn apart in record time by defensive platforms and mines.

Wow, I didn't know the Federation had the capability of assembling Petaton weaponry.

Guess the battle with the Dominion and the Borg were using the scrub fleet.

[Patrick Degan]

Second, Most manuals are devoid of rule of thumb, or common sense, practices.

They also have the complete history of the Empire.They can see and understand everything the Empire has done and they can understand how to change the rules and get a rough idea when to change the rules in a tactical/strategic sense. As for in ship matters, sure it might not have everything that a Imperial Midshipman would learn in the service, but after ten years of use and study and enough crew experience I'm sure they'd pick up quite a bit, especially if they knew their Galaxy was on the line.

And the Federation got a copy of an "Imperial Basic/Federation English Dictionary"... when, exactly?

[Zwinmar]

And before you say that the Fed's have a universal translator, consider this, it only has about 250 languages in it. the SW universe has millions. I wish i had the screen shots, but in both Rebel and Empire ships you can clearly see that they use a written language totally different than English.

So basically, they would be spending those ten years tryn to just figure out the manul while some other schmucks are experimenting with the ships.

Id bet that they would loose at least 2 ISD's to blind hyperspace jumps before they got the idea that they cant jump blind. Oh yeah, to do a hyperspace jump you have to have very precise calculations, which means very precise starmaps, which the Fed's dont have.

[consequences]

Actually, they are a bunch of hippy moron's, the majority dont even know how to pilot manually, the average boyscout would be able to beat them if they didnt have their technobabble. But thats beside the point.

Even Starfleet cadets can fight in HtH against 3-1 odds against most races and hold their own. And all starfleet personel can pilot manually, it's covered in their training, despite your moronic ranting. God damn, have you ever even watched any Trek, or are you just too busy wanking away to the ICS all day?

Care to provide an example instead of going "I'm telling you that..."?

I believe he is referring to the incident where Picard got stabbed through the heart by a group of Nausicaans, which really makes me question his definition of 'holding their own'.

[Ghost Rider]

Even Starfleet cadets can fight in HtH against 3-1 odds against most races and hold their own. And all starfleet personel can pilot manually, it's covered in their training, despite your moronic ranting. God damn, have you ever even watched any Trek, or are you just too busy wanking away to the ICS all day?

Care to provide an example instead of going "I'm telling you that..."?

I believe he is referring to the incident where Picard got stabbed through the heart by a group of Nausicaans, which really makes me question his definition of 'holding their own'.

LMAO!!

No, seriously...really ?

If he's thinking that's holding one's own...I hate to think what he thinks of the loser bracket.

[Straha]

And the Federation got a copy of an "Imperial Basic/Federation English Dictionary"... when, exactly?

To quote MY OP
'"Everything You Wanted to Know About the Empire, but Were Afraid to Ask" Encyclopedia'
Everything would include language, and ship meanings. Originally I was just going to give them the SDs with fully translated data-banks, but decided that it would be a bit more fair (snarf snarf) to give them everything that they could possibly know.

[Straha]

I'm not disagreeing with you, I think the best/only chance the feds have after they ambush the initial fleet is to go through the wormhole immeadietly and hope to get lucky against a defense fleet, and them getting that lucky is not likley. What I was objecting to up there was someone saying more or less "The Federation are a pack of buck-toothed morons who wont be able to bother to learn how a Stardestroyer works, or how to use it at all."

Actually, they are a bunch of hippy morons, the majority dont even know how to pilot manually, the average boyscout would be able to beat them if they didnt have their technobabble. But thats beside the point.

No shit Sherlock, I bet if I dropped you or me or almost anyone else on this board into an F-16 we'd crash it in ten minutes.

I really think that the fed's would sit around on their thumbs until they were actually attacked, then there would be a big rush to get the ISD's operational, ie..but back together cause they couldnt figure out how the technology works, which in some cases would be too simple for them to even remotely comprehend.

And when have they acted like this in the past? When they found out the Borg were coming they activley built up technology and ships to fight them (and then stopped short on the number of ships they needed, but that's not a problem here) and then used them. They didn't wait till First Contact after BoBW to start designing new ships, they built them and then they used them. Further more it's not like these ships are useless untill the wormhole arrives, using these ships they can whipe the Borg, Dominion, Klingons, Romulans, Gorn, and whoever else they wish without lifting a finger, and if they tried they could probably force these races to donate ships/manpower for the upcoming operation against the empire, and try to give it as good of a fight as they can before the shit from the wormhole hits the fan.

[Star-Blighter]

Hey, mighty OP writer, what's the size of the wormhole opening?

That gives me a very evil idea. What if an Executer class with Interdictor escort parked RIGHT at the mouth of the wormwhole.

To use an analogy, it would be like pitting a 160 lb. ballet dancer up against a 280 lb. lineman. In a narrow corridor....

[Deathstalker]

Further more it's not like these ships are useless untill the wormhole arrives, using these ships they can whipe the Borg, Dominion, Klingons, Romulans, Gorn, and whoever else they wish without lifting a finger, and if they tried they could probably force these races to donate ships/manpower for the upcoming operation against the empire, and try to give it as good of a fight as they can before the shit from the wormhole hits the fan.

I can see the Feds using diplomacy with all but the Borg, and maybe even them if the Borg comes to its senses. Klingons would be easisest "The battles will be GLORIOUS!" Romulans a bit harder "I got news for you guys, if the Empire gets in, what ever small hope you have for ruling the galaxy goes poof!"

Dominion might even be easy."We never wanted to fight you shapeshifting weasels in the first place and you picked a fight with us. Do you think the Empire will take any chances of you impersonating there officers? They'll hunt you down to the ends of the galaxy!"

Give one chance the Borg. Borg say"surrender etc. etc." Feds say"Listen up zombies. Help us or your ass is grass. Borg respond"surrender etc. etc" Feds reply "Open fire!"


A united Milky Way may offer a challenge, but if the Feds can't close the wormhole, the Empire can continue to pour forces into the galaxy.

[Zwinmar]

what im figurin:

2-3 years, just to figure out how to operate the ISD's

4-7 years just to try to talk with the other species, longer with negotiations

8-10 years just to map out part of the galaxy so they can make reliable hyperspace jumps, during that time of course they will locate other species were they must start talks with them

by the time they even get a desent alliance/conquoring going it will be too late.

So way i figure it:

1.) they would loose at least 2 ISD's to bad hyperspace jumps
2.) loose 1 ISD to protracted wars, damage to the other 2
3.) which leaves them a grand total of 2 ISD's for their war with the Empire, 1 if both are heavly damaged before.

So, 1-2 ISD's to fight a minimum of 3 ImpStar Dueces with supporting craft that come into the wormhole. Empire wins

[Star-Blighter]

I'm not disagreeing with you, I think the best/only chance the feds have after they ambush the initial fleet is to go through the wormhole immeadietly and hope to get lucky against a defense fleet, and them getting that lucky is not likley. What I was objecting to up there was someone saying more or less "The Federation are a pack of buck-toothed morons who wont be able to bother to learn how a Stardestroyer works, or how to use it at all."

Actually, they are a bunch of hippy morons, the majority dont even know how to pilot manually, the average boyscout would be able to beat them if they didnt have their technobabble. But thats beside the point.

No shit Sherlock, I bet if I dropped you or me or almost anyone else on this board into an F-16 we'd crash it in ten minutes.

I really think that the fed's would sit around on their thumbs until they were actually attacked, then there would be a big rush to get the ISD's operational, ie..but back together cause they couldnt figure out how the technology works, which in some cases would be too simple for them to even remotely comprehend.

And when have they acted like this in the past? When they found out the Borg were coming they activley built up technology and ships to fight them (and then stopped short on the number of ships they needed, but that's not a problem here) and then used them. They didn't wait till First Contact after BoBW to start designing new ships, they built them and then they used them. Further more it's not like these ships are useless untill the wormhole arrives, using these ships they can whipe the Borg, Dominion, Klingons, Romulans, Gorn, and whoever else they wish without lifting a finger, and if they tried they could probably force these races to donate ships/manpower for the upcoming operation against the empire, and try to give it as good of a fight as they can before the shit from the wormhole hits the fan.

You and I aren't trained military personel. Starfleet cadets ARE! This isn't a case of not being all that familiar with the instruments. This is just like not be able to drive a car without an autopilot. There is no excuse.

Getting the head haunchos of starfleet approve a new design seems to be like pulling a fucking tooth. They may approve it, but they'll be kicking and screaming on the way into the dentist's office.

[Straha]

You and I aren't trained military personel. Starfleet cadets ARE! This isn't a case of not being all that familiar with the instruments. This is just like not be able to drive a car without an autopilot. There is no excuse.

Car=!Starship. The Average West Point graduate would crash in a most spectacular fashion if you dropped him in a helicopter, much as the average member of the air force would crash if you dropped him into a Stealth Bomber/F-16/Harrier/etc. I would also like to point out at this time that we have seen an abnormally high percentage of the Bridge Crew (even Wesley... ::shudder::) pilot the Enterprise for a protracted length of time...

Getting the head haunchos of starfleet approve a new design seems to be like pulling a fucking tooth. They may approve it, but they'll be kicking and screaming on the way into the dentist's office.

I respectfully disagree. Dentist's office is under doing it, it's more likebeing dragged off to have your voice raised an octave, that being said, however, they would still do it, and they would probably expidite the process considering just how grave the threat was and just how close to home it is.

[Straha]

what im figurin:

2-3 years, just to figure out how to operate the ISD's

4-7 years just to try to talk with the other species, longer with negotiations

8-10 years just to map out part of the galaxy so they can make reliable hyperspace jumps, during that time of course they will locate other species were they must start talks with them

by the time they even get a desent alliance/conquoring going it will be too late.

So way i figure it:

1.) they would loose at least 2 ISD's to bad hyperspace jumps
2.) loose 1 ISD to protracted wars, damage to the other 2
3.) which leaves them a grand total of 2 ISD's for their war with the Empire, 1 if both are heavly damaged before.

So, 1-2 ISD's to fight a minimum of 3 ImpStar Dueces with supporting craft that come into the wormhole. Empire wins

After we've dealt with the fact that they would know how to use the damn things, they have the precise guides on how to use the hyperspace drive, not to mention the on-board computer (and whatever safety devices there are on board a Stardestroyer's hyperdrive...) you decide "Poof, they lose two stardestroyers, and if anyone asks why... A wizard did it." Then you decide that you're going to have the rest of the stardestroyers damaged (and even destroyed) when the firepower of most fleets in the STverse couldn't scratch the paint on a Stardestroyer, all the while you've got seven years of negotiations going on between the Federation and other nations about getting them to help save their own asses, or being fored to save them.

Seriously, Portal is more realistic than that...

[Stark]

Hey, Straha, lets not say things we can't take back, man....