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Post by Vympel »

Is he less powerful in a Force-user sense, or less powerful in a crippled, ruined lungs, stiff neck and shoulders sense?
Less powerful as a force user. The quote is available on the forum somewhere, but yeah, it's quite explicit that in terms of the force, because he's now something like half-machine, he can never be what he could've been, or as powerful as he was. He's likened to a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, etc.
I haven't read the novelisation, so is it possible that he's simply had a breakdown? He was incredibly arrogant, then his best friend left him to die, and then he woke up a hideous half-man, unable to survive without mechanical support. That's a huge comedown, and perhaps he was never able to psycologically come to terms with his injuries?
No, he has a breakdown alright ... when he learns that Padme was dead from Sidious. He lets out the full fury of the force, in an attempt to "destroy" the shadow- clearly being Palpatine, who's described as a shadow earlier in the novel, but he can only destroy the entire room and all the droids in there- though there is the fact that he doesn't really want to destroy the shadow, since it all he has, forever. Until he finds about his children ... of course. (that last sentence isn't in the novel, it's jsut obvious).

But either way, it is clearly established in the novel and by Lucas in the commenatries that he's not what he once was, nor ever will be.
My problem with the 'weaker because of his injuries' = 'weaker because of cyber' is that he already had lost an arm, Luke lost a hand, etc, and noone said 'shit, you're down 10% Force interaction' or 'oh my, the midiclorians are moving out in droves'. I'm not being argumentative, I'm just not sure I understand.
It's not just the limbs, as I understand it. The novel says he doesn't even really have lungs anymore.. His injuries were extremely grave- it takes more than merely a hand to seriously affect you. Vader lost a LOT of himself- Anakin after AOTC and Luke after TESB didn't really at all.

Which makes me really enjoy Vader cutting Obi-Wan down in ANH. Old bastard. Mack Daddy my arse. :) Poor old Kenobi, not powerful enough to beat a much-reduced apprentice, weighed down by the superior powers of Vader enough that his eyes were blurry and he felt physically heavy in his presence (ANH novelization), gave up like a wimp.

"Your powers are weak, old man!"

Ahhh ... gold. Vader gets his revenge. A day long remembered.

Do you get the impression I think Obi-Wan's a dickhead?
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Vympel wrote:Do you get the impression I think Obi-Wan's a dickhead?
Yeah, I think you're insane.

Vader was the dickhead and after reading the ROTS novellisation he got everything he deserved, less than he deserved even.
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Post by Stark »

Vympel wrote:Less powerful as a force user. The quote is available on the forum somewhere, but yeah, it's quite explicit that in terms of the force, because he's now something like half-machine, he can never be what he could've been, or as powerful as he was. He's likened to a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, etc.
I remember that quote from an interview: I had forgotten the context. Thanks :)
But either way, it is clearly established in the novel and by Lucas in the commenatries that he's not what he once was, nor ever will be.
Is this in the sense of his original potential? I mean, is he reduced so much he's an average Force user, or is he just reduced from his 'chosen one' status, and still uber?
It's not just the limbs, as I understand it. The novel says he doesn't even really have lungs anymore.. His injuries were extremely grave- it takes more than merely a hand to seriously affect you. Vader lost a LOT of himself- Anakin after AOTC and Luke after TESB didn't really at all.
Ah, so he's not just a few cyberarms and a neck splint, he's pretty much a zombie. I guess Obi-Wan wasn't lying so much in ANH: Anakin pretty much DID die. That makes a great deal more sense: I should probably buy the novelisation! :)
Which makes me really enjoy Vader cutting Obi-Wan down in ANH. Old bastard. Mack Daddy my arse. :) Poor old Kenobi, not powerful enough to beat a much-reduced apprentice, weighed down by the superior powers of Vader enough that his eyes were blurry and he felt physically heavy in his presence (ANH novelization), gave up like a wimp.

"Your powers are weak, old man!"

Ahhh ... gold. Vader gets his revenge. A day long remembered.

Do you get the impression I think Obi-Wan's a dickhead?
It's cool to see that after so long, it's Vader who's stayed in form, while Obi-Wan has gone all spiritual, like Yoda.
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Post by Crown »

Vympel wrote:Which makes me really enjoy Vader cutting Obi-Wan down in ANH. Old bastard. Mack Daddy my arse. :) Poor old Kenobi, not powerful enough to beat a much-reduced apprentice, weighed down by the superior powers of Vader enough that his eyes were blurry and he felt physically heavy in his presence (ANH novelization), gave up like a wimp.

"Your powers are weak, old man!"
I don't remember Obi-Wan's eyes being 'blurry' when he was fighting his old apprentice at all ... what I do remember was Obi-Wan skillfully keeping him at arms reach, fustrating Vader by not being able to kill him, and in the end even looking away from Vader (who stood there like a stunned mullet) to look over at Luke and smile that ultimate smile where you know he is thinking (oh I'm so gonna screw you with this), and slimply let Vader cut him down.
Vympel wrote:Ahhh ... gold. Vader gets his revenge. A day long remembered.
Yes, it was the day that Obi-Wan got the ultimate 'fuck you' on his failed pupil, it was the day that catalysed the emergence of the weapon that would spell doom for Vader and his master; Luke bad-ass Skywalker.
Vympel wrote:Do you get the impression I think Obi-Wan's a dickhead?
I have observed this character flaw in you before, but not to worry. The evidence speaks for its self, Obi-Wan is the Mack-Daddy of Star Wars! :P
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Vympel wrote:Do you get the impression I think Obi-Wan's a dickhead?
You filthy deviant. :P
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Crown wrote: I don't remember Obi-Wan's eyes being 'blurry' when he was fighting his old apprentice at all ... what I do remember was Obi-Wan skillfully keeping him at arms reach
You can see Vader manhandle him about the fight- he outright shoves him with his sabre at one point and he can barely move away as Vader slices the wall. Vader was never in the slightest bit of difficulty. And Vader doesn't bother himself with silly little twirls :)
fustrating Vader by not being able to kill him, and in the end even looking away from Vader (who stood there like a stunned mullet) to look over at Luke and smile that ultimate smile where you know he is thinking (oh I'm so gonna screw you with this), and slimply let Vader cut him down.
He had no chance of winning, that's why he gave up.

ANH novelization:
p.146 wrote:Kenobi blinked once, shook his head, and tried to clear his eyes, which had begun to water slightly. Sweat beaded up on his forehead, and his eyelids fluttered again.

'Your powers are weak,' Vader noted emotionlessly.
and
p.147 wrote:Kenobi heard the approaching commotion and spared a glance back into the hangar. The squad of troopers bearing down on him was enough to show that he was trapped.
Hah- obviously he's not confident of his ability to defeat Vader, or fight his way through a mere squad of Stromtroopers. Weak old man :)
Yes, it was the day that Obi-Wan got the ultimate 'fuck you' on his failed pupil, it was the day that catalysed the emergence of the weapon that would spell doom for Vader and his master; Luke bad-ass Skywalker.
By dying? Bah- he couldn't beat Vader by strength of arms, he knew it, so instead he tried to turn his own son against him by lying to him about who his father was in an obvious plot to murder him. A coward, through and through! :P
I have observed this character flaw in you before, but not to worry. The evidence speaks for its self, Obi-Wan is the Mack-Daddy of Star Wars! :P
Bah, a 57 year old Jedi Master couldn't defeat his old apprentice and was clearly going to lose, hence why he gave up, while an 80 something Count Dooku whipped his arse back when he was 35, and again when he was 38! If Obi-Wan had faced Dooku by himself on the Invisible Hand, he would've died then and there. :)
You filthy deviant.
If he wasn't such a bad liar, maybe I'd have more sympathy :) Point of view my ass, a lie is a lie is a lie.
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Post by Vympel »

Stark wrote:
Ah, so he's not just a few cyberarms and a neck splint, he's pretty much a zombie. I guess Obi-Wan wasn't lying so much in ANH: Anakin pretty much DID die.
He's not just cyberarms and a neck implant (though I don't know how his neck got so damaged judging from both the novelization and script)- he's cyber-legs as well. That's why Vader is taller than Anakin.
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Post by NecronLord »

Count Dooku a Sith is. Equal to the Jedi, they are not. 8)
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Post by Spartan »

Count Dooku a Sith is. Equal to the Jedi, they are not.
He was also one of the greatest Jedi Masters ever befor he turned. He could take Kenobi any day.


Spoiler:

The novelization even goes so far as to say that vader no longer even has lungs.
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Spartan wrote:He was also one of the greatest Jedi Masters ever befor he turned. He could take Kenobi any day.
Kenobi is also one of the greatest Jedi Masters ever. The thing is, Dooku is a Sith, and they are much more powerful than Jedi.
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Post by Spartan »

NecronLord wrote:
Kenobi is also one of the greatest Jedi Masters ever. The thing is, Dooku is a Sith, and they are much more powerful than Jedi.
Granted, he is one of the greatest ever. But in what sense? As a general, as a duelist, in wisdom, knowledge, the fact that he transcended death? We don't know really. But he wasn't at the time that Dooku beat him. He was just a knight the first time, and regardless even at his most powerful he was not on Dooku's level even before his fall.

Ben grew far more powerful in hiding than he had been during the prequals. He was never on the level of Mace or Yoda in PT. Dooku it was said could have taken Mace, and could give Yoda a run for his money.
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Post by Crown »

Vympel wrote:You can see Vader manhandle him about the fight- he outright shoves him with his sabre at one point and he can barely move away as Vader slices the wall. Vader was never in the slightest bit of difficulty. And Vader doesn't bother himself with silly little twirls :)
Of course he does! He is showing contempt for his old apprentice, turning his back on him and mocking him. He is demonstrating Vader's inability to destroy him! Duh! :)
Vympel wrote:He had no chance of winning, that's why he gave up.

ANH novelization:
p.146 SW novelization omnibus wrote:Kenobi blinked once, shook his head, and tried to clear his eyes, which had begun to water slightly. Sweat beaded up on his forehead, and his eyelids fluttered again.

'Your powers are weak,' Vader noted emotionlessly.
and
p.147 wrote:Kenobi heard the approaching commotion and spared a glance back into the hangar. The squad of troopers bearing down on him was enough to show that he was trapped.
Hah- obviously he's not confident of his ability to defeat Vader, or fight his way through a mere squad of Stromtroopers. Weak old man :)
Bwwwahahaha! Why don't you quote Obi-Wan's response;

BEN: You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Besides, the objective in the whole OT was defeating the Emperor, a task Obi-Wan knew he couldn't do, but Luke (or Leia according to Yoda) could. And please don't try and pretend like those Stormtroopers could have stopped Obi-Wan, we've seen what he could do in the prequels. He sacrificed himself and achieved the ultimate fuck you on Vader, by guiding Luke (from the grave mind you) to ultimate victory, the grin said it all really. :P
Vympel wrote:By dying? Bah- he couldn't beat Vader by strength of arms, he knew it, so instead he tried to turn his own son against him by lying to him about who his father was in an obvious plot to murder him. A coward, through and through! :P
A master strategist actually. He never lied to Luke, Anakin did die when he became Vader. What was the alternative, give him a run down on how Luke's daddy became a wife beater and killed his pregnant wife :?: Obi-Wan gave Luke just the right information that he needed, without burdening him (or scaring him) so that he could get the job done.

Besides, Vader is small fry. Obi-Wan beat him once before, and the objective was the Emperor, always.
Vympel wrote:Bah, a 57 year old Jedi Master couldn't defeat his old apprentice and was clearly going to lose, hence why he gave up, while an 80 something Count Dooku whipped his arse back when he was 35, and again when he was 38! If Obi-Wan had faced Dooku by himself on the Invisible Hand, he would've died then and there. :)
Indeed, but how does this change the fact that he was the one that put Vader in the iron lung in the first place? Dooku or no Dooku, Vader has always been Obi-Wan's bitch, in the end fight the only time Vader could hurt Obi-Wan is when the guy, flat out refused to fight anymore and stood stock still! :D
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Post by NecronLord »

Spartan wrote: Granted, he is one of the greatest ever. But in what sense? As a general, as a duelist, in wisdom, knowledge, the fact that he transcended death? We don't know really.
ROTS: According to the RotS Novellisation Mace considers him the finest duellist of the Jedi Order.
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Crown wrote:
Of course he does! He is showing contempt for his old apprentice, turning his back on him and mocking him. He is demonstrating Vader's inability to destroy him! Duh! :)
Oh brother! :P

Bwwwahahaha! Why don't you quote Obi-Wan's response;

BEN: You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
Bah- that doesn't change the above, does it? He was sweating and dizzy before the fight even began.
Besides, the objective in the whole OT was defeating the Emperor, a task Obi-Wan knew he couldn't do, but Luke (or Leia according to Yoda) could.
Actually, Vader did. :)
And please don't try and pretend like those Stormtroopers could have stopped Obi-Wan, we've seen what he could do in the prequels. He sacrificed himself and achieved the ultimate fuck you on Vader, by guiding Luke (from the grave mind you) to ultimate victory, the grin said it all really. :P
In the prequels he was actually fast- but he was obviously not what he used to be.
A master strategist actually. He never lied to Luke, Anakin did die when he became Vader.
Yes he did- he didn't say Anakin died and became Vader, he said Vader "betrayed and murdered" your father. That's a lie.
What was the alternative, give him a run down on how Luke's daddy became a wife beater and killed his pregnant wife :?: Obi-Wan gave Luke just the right information that he needed, without burdening him (or scaring him) so that he could get the job done.


He should've said his father wasn't dead, and explained exactly what happened to him and his mother, yes. Luke needed to know that- this "not ready for the burden" was bollocks.
Besides, Vader is small fry. Obi-Wan beat him once before
He couldn't have done it again- if he could've destroyed Vader on the Death Star, he would've- Obi-Wan was emphatic in RotJ on Luke facing Vader again, I'd remind you. Remember what he said when Luke refused to kill his own father- "then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."
and the objective was the Emperor, always.
Which was Anakin. Luke was the tool.
Indeed, but how does this change the fact that he was the one that put Vader in the iron lung in the first place? Dooku or no Dooku, Vader has always been Obi-Wan's bitch, in the end fight the only time Vader could hurt Obi-Wan is when the guy, flat out refused to fight anymore and stood stock still! :D
You know I'm right- second time round, Obi-Wan was done for, and he knew it, the novelization makes it clear, as well as his insistence that Luke kill Vader.
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Post by Spartan »

Yeah I have the novel, but:

Mace was obviously talking in regards to fighting Grevious, and clealy he was trying to bolster Obi-wan's confidence. As Mace, Yoda, or even Anakin could have easily taken Grevious in a duel. He was also talking about in the classic style of dueling. Dueling doesn't count for much if the other guy can over power you with the force. Mace, Yoda, and Anakin are all stronger in the force than Obi-wan, so they can compensate for being less skillful with a sabre. Dooku was not only a better duelist but also most powerful in the force.
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Post by Crown »

Vympel wrote:Bah- that doesn't change the above, does it? He was sweating and dizzy before the fight even began.
And that doesn't change the fact that he had to let Vader kill him does it? Dooku needed no such opening, but Vader did. :wink:
Vympel wrote:Actually, Vader did. :)
Yes, because of Luke. But Vader payed for that, he himself died.
Vympel wrote:In the prequels he was actually fast- but he was obviously not what he used to be.
Errr, and Yoda walks like a gimp - what's your point? You don't actually believe the things we see Obi-Wan and Yoda doing in the prequels are due to their own muscles, and not Force assisted, right?
Vympel wrote:Yes he did- he didn't say Anakin died and became Vader, he said Vader "betrayed and murdered" your father. That's a lie.
No it is the truth. When Vader consumed Anakin, all the things that Anakin clearly wanted (and worked for) were distorted and twisted by Vader's anger; including killing the woman Anakin was trying to save from death Vader betrayed everything that Anakin wanted.
Vympel wrote:He should've said his father wasn't dead, and explained exactly what happened to him and his mother, yes. Luke needed to know that- this "not ready for the burden" was bollocks.
Yoda and Obi-Wan disagree with you. And clearly they were right, Luke wasn't ready for it.
Vympel wrote:He couldn't have done it again- if he could've destroyed Vader on the Death Star, he would've- Obi-Wan was emphatic in RotJ on Luke facing Vader again, I'd remind you. Remember what he said when Luke refused to kill his own father- "then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."
Why couldn't he have done it again? Vader is known to be weaker than Anakin. We see that Vader can't land a good strike on Obi-Wan even when the guy isn't looking at him. We see the look on Obi-Wan's face when he lets Vader strike him down, that clever little smile tells you everything.

That's a bit of clever interpretation, when Yoda and Obi-Wan were insisting that he once again 'face' Vader. It was Luke who jumped to the conclusion that he had to kill his own father. Remember the cave in TESB, Luke kills Vader and sees his own face in the mask. They wanted Luke to confront and defeat Vader, but destroy the Emperor. :wink:
Vympel wrote:Which was Anakin. Luke was the tool.
True, but again Yoda and Obi-Wan couldn't have done it either. Luke at least has the potential of being just more powerfull than the Emperor, while Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't.
Vympel wrote:You know I'm right- second time round, Obi-Wan was done for, and he knew it, the novelization makes it clear, as well as his insistence that Luke kill Vader.
And yet, we come back to Obi-Wan having to let Vader destroy him, and the fucking smile that Obi-Wan gives him speaks fucking volumes man, I really can't see why you don't acknowledge that. :P
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Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

Crown wrote:And that doesn't change the fact that he had to let Vader kill him does it? Dooku needed no such opening, but Vader did. :wink:
No telling he won't have won given a bit of time. In fact, if I knew I was going to lose and die, I might go out this way too. Just to induce a tiny bit of doubt in my opponent that he couldn't beat me fair and square (even if he could).
Errr, and Yoda walks like a gimp - what's your point? You don't actually believe the things we see Obi-Wan and Yoda doing in the prequels are due to their own muscles, and not Force assisted, right?
Still, he can't have his full maneuverability by 57, could he?
No it is the truth. When Vader consumed Anakin, all the things that Anakin clearly wanted (and worked for) were distorted and twisted by Vader's anger; including killing the woman Anakin was trying to save from death Vader betrayed everything that Anakin wanted.
Most people define "death" as the cessation of biological function. At best, this is called "going mad". Not the same thing. Stop trying to make excuses and pretending Obi-Wan didn't lie.
Yoda and Obi-Wan disagree with you. And clearly they were right, Luke wasn't ready for it.
How did you know? Sure, he'd be shattered for a bit, but then he'd eventually have picked himself up.
Why couldn't he have done it again? Vader is known to be weaker than Anakin. We see that Vader can't land a good strike on Obi-Wan even when the guy isn't looking at him. We see the look on Obi-Wan's face when he lets Vader strike him down, that clever little smile tells you everything.
Obi-Wan is also not in his prime.
And yet, we come back to Obi-Wan having to let Vader destroy him, and the fucking smile that Obi-Wan gives him speaks fucking volumes man, I really can't see why you don't acknowledge that. :P
The novelization really does away with your guesses as to who had the advantage. For all you know, Obi-Wan is smiling because now he can go to whever Qui-Gon is going to. At best, he smiled because he knows Luke would see him being cut down cold-blooded. It just won't quite be the same if Vader almost "accidentally" killed him in a random strike-parry sequence.
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Post by Vympel »

Crown wrote: And that doesn't change the fact that he had to let Vader kill him does it? Dooku needed no such opening, but Vader did. :wink:
He didn't "have" to. He was obviously not getting off the station alive, and he knew it.
Yes, because of Luke. But Vader payed for that, he himself died.
Yes, but it's not much to do with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan wanted Vader dead. He didn't believe there was still good in him.
Errr, and Yoda walks like a gimp - what's your point? You don't actually believe the things we see Obi-Wan and Yoda doing in the prequels are due to their own muscles, and not Force assisted, right?
Obi-Wan clearly couldn't emulate them at an older age, else he would've defeated Vader- or maybe he actually could, but Vader was slowing him down, like Anakin did to Dooku in AotC (force walls).
No it is the truth. When Vader consumed Anakin, all the things that Anakin clearly wanted (and worked for) were distorted and twisted by Vader's anger; including killing the woman Anakin was trying to save from death Vader betrayed everything that Anakin wanted.
As an aside, Vader didn't intend to kill her when he force-choked her. When he learns that she's dead, he goes insane with rage, and can't comprehend it, since "he felt her" and "she was alive" (RotS script). In any case, he didn't say Vader simply betrayed himself, he said Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker, clearly suggesting they were too different people. They aren't.
Yoda and Obi-Wan disagree with you. And clearly they were right, Luke wasn't ready for it.
Of course he was- he fully accepted it, and didn't turn to the dark side. What he wasn't ready for was fighting Vader, since Vader easily bested him.
Why couldn't he have done it again? Vader is known to be weaker than Anakin.
Because Obi-Wan is older, slower, and Vader, reduced in power though he is, is still more powerful than Obi-Wan. He has also had almost two decades of Sith teachings under his belt. The circumstanes of Anakin's defeat in the duel are also highly unlikely to be repeated (won't spoil it since I know you've avoided that).
We see that Vader can't land a good strike on Obi-Wan even when the guy isn't looking at him. We see the look on Obi-Wan's face when he lets Vader strike him down, that clever little smile tells you everything.
Kaz dealt with this fine :)
That's a bit of clever interpretation, when Yoda and Obi-Wan were insisting that he once again 'face' Vader. It was Luke who jumped to the conclusion that he had to kill his own father. Remember the cave in TESB, Luke kills Vader and sees his own face in the mask. They wanted Luke to confront and defeat Vader, but destroy the Emperor. :wink:
They should've disavowed him of the idea of killing him if that was truly their intent- it wasn't. Luke said he couldn't kill Vader, Obi-Wan said "then the Emperor has already won." Ergo, they wanted him to kill Vader. If what you say is true, Obi-Wan should've corrected Luke on what he was thinking.
True, but again Yoda and Obi-Wan couldn't have done it either. Luke at least has the potential of being just more powerfull than the Emperor, while Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't.
Yes.
And yet, we come back to Obi-Wan having to let Vader destroy him, and the fucking smile that Obi-Wan gives him speaks fucking volumes man, I really can't see why you don't acknowledge that. :P
Because that smile can mean anything :)
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Post by Crown »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:No telling he won't have won given a bit of time. In fact, if I knew I was going to lose and die, I might go out this way too. Just to induce a tiny bit of doubt in my opponent that he couldn't beat me fair and square (even if he could).
True, I too knew he was going to die, but that was more due to the fact that I knew there were two other movies, and that Vader was the bad guy. But the manner in which he dies is telling, or are we going to dismiss it intirely?
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Still, he can't have his full maneuverability by 57, could he?
You're not seriously suggesting that Yoda had his 'full maneuverability' at 900 - 20 years, but not by the time of TESB are you?
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Most people define "death" as the cessation of biological function. At best, this is called "going mad". Not the same thing. Stop trying to make excuses and pretending Obi-Wan didn't lie.
So you've never heard the phrase; you're dead to me now? Am I to take it then when one persons says this to another (who is quite alive and breathing), the other person is actually an animated corpse? Obi-Wan defined Vader as 'murdering and betraying' Anakin, he did in every sense but the literal one.
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:How did you know? Sure, he'd be shattered for a bit, but then he'd eventually have picked himself up.
How do you know? The guy jumped off a bridge at the thought of Vader actually being his father, could you imagine the reaction if he found out all the things Vader actually did? Would he be able to face the Emperor and not fall a victim to him aswell, with that much hate?
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Obi-Wan is also not in his prime.
And what, Dooku at 80 something was? And Yoda at 880 was? That was Yoda's 'prime' 880? Not 400? 167? 321? 666? Or are you simply not answering the obvious point; the feats that Obi-Wan does as a padawan are him using the Force, not his own muslces working!
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:The novelization really does away with your guesses as to who had the advantage. For all you know, Obi-Wan is smiling because now he can go to whever Qui-Gon is going to. At best, he smiled because he knows Luke would see him being cut down cold-blooded. It just won't quite be the same if Vader almost "accidentally" killed him in a random strike-parry sequence.
Yaha. Look, the movies over ride the novelisations, right? Obi-Wan held off Vader. Obi-Wan let Vader destroy him. End of fucking story. Really I mean come the fuck on.
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Post by Vympel »

Yaha. Look, the movies over ride the novelisations, right?
There's no contradiction between the two, not on that point quoted- only in the manner of Obi-Wan's death- in the novelization, Obi-Wan is killed fair and square. But Obi-Wan's powers were still weak, Vader was right.
Obi-Wan held off Vader.
For a fight that lasted barely a few minutes- and where Vader was clearly pushing him about the area as he pleased. Vader was never on the defensive. Obi-Wan clearly couldn't keep it up.
Obi-Wan let Vader destroy him. End of fucking story. Really I mean come the fuck on.
Yes, he did, but he was going to lose anyway. Think on it- if he could've defeated Vader then and there, he could've fought his way past the Stormtroopers in the hangar, having destroyed the "greatest treasure of the Sith" (until Luke, that is)- and not only that, he and Yoda could've trained Luke together to defeat the Emperor properly.
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Post by Crown »

Vympel wrote:He didn't "have" to. He was obviously not getting off the station alive, and he knew it.
That's doubtfull. I think he was uncertain that he could get Luke off the station, as well as himself, at the same time.
Vympel wrote:Yes, but it's not much to do with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan wanted Vader dead. He didn't believe there was still good in him.
Conceeded.
Vympel wrote:Obi-Wan clearly couldn't emulate them at an older age, else he would've defeated Vader- or maybe he actually could, but Vader was slowing him down, like Anakin did to Dooku in AotC (force walls).
The latter. But even with that Vader couldn't just bash down Obi-Wan's defences, he wasn't good enough.
Vympel wrote:As an aside, Vader didn't intend to kill her when he force-choked her. When he learns that she's dead, he goes insane with rage, and can't comprehend it, since "he felt her" and "she was alive" (RotS script). In any case, he didn't say Vader simply betrayed himself, he said Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker, clearly suggesting they were too different people. They aren't.
We have two examples of Vader saying that Anakin means nothing to him now. Sepparate body or not, it is bloody clear that Anakin was consumed by Vader, ergo Obi-Wan was right. :P
Vympel wrote:Of course he was- he fully accepted it, and didn't turn to the dark side. What he wasn't ready for was fighting Vader, since Vader easily bested him.
Did you watch the same movies as me? He nearly fell to the Dark Side when Vader mentione Leia, and then he gets nicely toasted by the Emperor. Look, I'm a fan of Luke, but laying out the entire history of the Skywalker family tragedy would do nothing but give the Emperor more meat to sink his teeth into in order to turn Luke. Hell, technically when he first striked at the Emperor he was half way there. It was only with Yoda's last warning in his mind (suffer your father's fate), that he paused and just surrendered.
Vympel wrote:Because Obi-Wan is older, slower, and Vader, reduced in power though he is, is still more powerful than Obi-Wan. He has also had almost two decades of Sith teachings under his belt. The circumstanes of Anakin's defeat in the duel are also highly unlikely to be repeated (won't spoil it since I know you've avoided that).
And I again, I refer you to Dooku and Yoda (hell even Mace) who were older (or around the same age as Obi-Wan), and their speed wasn't hampered. The 'tired old man' thing is really weak, considering the use of the Force to augement their skills. I will accept that Vader was dampening his ability (ala Anakin vs Dooku), but then we have to also consider that Vader still couldn't fucking get a hit in. Hoestly. :)
Vympel wrote:They should've disavowed him of the idea of killing him if that was truly their intent- it wasn't. Luke said he couldn't kill Vader, Obi-Wan said "then the Emperor has already won." Ergo, they wanted him to kill Vader. If what you say is true, Obi-Wan should've corrected Luke on what he was thinking.
You miss the point. Luke wasn't killing his father, his father was already dead according to Yoda and Obi-Wan (yes I slightly switched gears there, sorry for the poor wording). :P
Vympel wrote:Because that smile can mean anything :)
It does; it means I'm gonna fuck you up from the grave! :P Really what more evidence do we need for the Mack-Daddy title being bestowed? :lol:
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Post by Elheru Aran »

wait, WTF? :wtf: How did this go from a discussion of why cloned limbs aren't prevalent in the SW-verse to a discussion of Vader's fighting skillz? Rather the hijack, I'd think..... :?
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Greek wankers. :P
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Post by Crown »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Greek wankers. :P
It is well known that Greeks tend to display a lot of in fighting, all we need is a common enemy to bind us together, oh look here's a nice target - err I mean opponent! :P :wink:
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Post by Vympel »

Crown wrote: That's doubtfull. I think he was uncertain that he could get Luke off the station, as well as himself, at the same time.
Don't be silly- when he saw Luke he was at the ramp of the Falcon, and Ben was just across.
The latter. But even with that Vader couldn't just bash down Obi-Wan's defences, he wasn't good enough.
Obi-Wan was clearly in trouble from the get-go, as the novelization proves. Obi-Wan still had skill, but his powers were weak. All the evidence points to him knowing he was screwed and giving up.
We have two examples of Vader saying that Anakin means nothing to him now. Sepparate body or not, it is bloody clear that Anakin was consumed by Vader, ergo Obi-Wan was right. :P
That's not what Obi-Wan claimed- he said Vader killed Anakin. That's simply not true.
Did you watch the same movies as me? He nearly fell to the Dark Side when Vader mentione Leia, and then he gets nicely toasted by the Emperor. Look, I'm a fan of Luke, but laying out the entire history of the Skywalker family tragedy would do nothing but give the Emperor more meat to sink his teeth into in order to turn Luke. Hell, technically when he first striked at the Emperor he was half way there. It was only with Yoda's last warning in his mind (suffer your father's fate), that he paused and just surrendered.
His father's fate was a lot different from what Luke went through- the Emperor's plan was not well thought out in RotJ- he thought if he could make Luke angry, see the power of the Dark Side, he'd want to join him, but he obviously didn't. That's an aside though. Look at Luke's reaction when Vader tells him. He was horrified, yes, but he didn't join Vader. That was the ultimate test.
And I again, I refer you to Dooku and Yoda (hell even Mace) who were older (or around the same age as Obi-Wan), and their speed wasn't hampered.
Actually Mace Windu is only 50, IIRC. Obi-Wan was 58 at the time.
The 'tired old man' thing is really weak, considering the use of the Force to augement their skills. I will accept that Vader was dampening his ability (ala Anakin vs Dooku), but then we have to also consider that Vader still couldn't fucking get a hit in. Hoestly. :)
He may not have been tired, but his powers were most assuredly on the wane, for whatever reason.
You miss the point. Luke wasn't killing his father, his father was already dead according to Yoda and Obi-Wan (yes I slightly switched gears there, sorry for the poor wording). :P
And they were wrong. Luke was right.
It does; it means I'm gonna fuck you up from the grave! :P Really what more evidence do we need for the Mack-Daddy title being bestowed? :lol:
No spoiler:

Him not beating Vader in the manner he does in RotS :)
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