Is Devotion to the Holy Mother Goddess worship?

[Stravo]

Pope Benny in his inaugural address to the faithful said with the help of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Mother Mary I hope to be able to fulfill my duties and obligations. Now, Jesus was mentioned why is Mary in that same level as Jesus?

She is just a woman. Oddly enough also born without sin, gotta love Christian retconning of a woman's past. If I do something really cool can the Pope declare that I too was born without sin? But i digress.

She is a Revered figure in the Church, her image is in every church and cathedral, right along side Christ's. Anyone walking into a church that knew nothing about Christinaity at all would assume that Jesus and Mary were the Gods of the Christrian religion.

Now before the Catholic apologists come worming out of the woodwork and pointing like addled school children to the saints - point to me a fucking saint that gets anywhere near as much attention as Mary, hmm? There's a prayer that is said right alongside the Our Father...the Hail Mary. Her image is everywhere, ominipresent. Her name is mentioned by every Pope right along side or after Christ's. There's no damned Saint that comes anywhere near that level of official recognition and outright worship and devotion.

Hispanic culture elevates her to a divine state. Look at the various virgins found throughout Latin America, each one fiercely defended by their devotees...but isn't she just a woman? And the same woman at that? Then why is the Virgion of the Cobre from Cuba different in portrayal and aspect than the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexico? Hispanics claim to be devoted to a particular virgin, not THE virgin. Get my drift?

So if we are only allowed to worship only one God and we accept the Holy Trinity so that worshipping Jesus and the Holy Spirit (who really gets no love in Catholicism the poor bastard) and God are all one in the same - Just what precisely is Mary's place then? Why not give up the ghost and call her what she seems to be - a co-God or Goddess.

[Bug-Eyed Earl]

Pope Benny in his inaugural address to the faithful said with the help of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Mother Mary I hope to be able to fulfill my duties and obligations. Now, Jesus was mentioned why is Mary in that same level as Jesus?

She is just a woman. Oddly enough also born without sin, gotta love Christian retconning of a woman's past. If I do something really cool can the Pope declare that I too was born without sin? But i digress.

That reminds me of a joke:

Jesus to group about to stone a woman to death for adulyery:

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

BONK! A rock hits Jesus upside the head. He turns to see who threw it.

"Mom!"

[Imperial Overlord]

The medieval Christian faith was a theoretically a monotheistic religion, but in practice polytheistic. Cities and citizens prayed to their patron saint or archangel to interviene with God for them and in the 12th Century the cult of Mary really took off. After all, who is going to have more leverage than God than mom?

So, in short, yes she is a sort of goddess figure in Catholicism.

[Enforcer Talen]

christianity replaced polytheistic europe. in so doing, they made local deities saints.

christianity is so polytheistic its not even funny.

[TimothyC]

Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer: HECK YES!

There is nothing in the Bible to support any worship of Mary, and the level that the Catholic church take it to is insane. It didn't help that many of the early statues of "Mary" were pagan statues that were simply renamed.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Ok, here is when I set the record straight. latin american catholics asside(because their useage of catholicism is the result of the fusion between christianity and their ancient traditional religions) they dont pray to the saints or to the virgin, they pray for their intercession to carry their messages to god. There is a very subtle difference.

When a catholic prays they ask the patron saint of whatever they are praying for to interceede on their behalf, in order to get a better result. For mundane matters they pray directly equivalent to going to a Judge directly and representing yhourself when the stakes arent high, like atraffic ticket or marriage liscence... or something.

When the stakes are hgiehr they ask a patron saint to act as the equivalent of a lawyer and represent them, speaking to god via proxy. When making a pilgrimage they ask the patron saint of journies to relay their message to god and help them make it on their trip sucessfully. Whenever they need forgivness they ask the Virgin, which is the equivalent of hiring a badass defense lawyer to argue their case before God.

[Stravo]

Ok, here is when I set the record straight. latin american catholics asside(because their useage of catholicism is the result of the fusion between christianity and their ancient traditional religions) they dont pray to the saints or to the virgin, they pray for their intercession to carry their messages to god. There is a very subtle difference.

When a catholic prays they ask the patron saint of whatever they are praying for to interceede on their behalf, in order to get a better result. For mundane matters they pray directly equivalent to going to a Judge directly and representing yhourself when the stakes arent high, like atraffic ticket or marriage liscence... or something.

When the stakes are hgiehr they ask a patron saint to act as the equivalent of a lawyer and represent them, speaking to god via proxy. When making a pilgrimage they ask the patron saint of journies to relay their message to god and help them make it on their trip sucessfully. Whenever they need forgivness they ask the Virgin, which is the equivalent of hiring a badass defense lawyer to argue their case before God.

That's an awful lot of words to say they pray to the saint to get them a result. The Norse could say they were praying for Thor to intercede on their behalf to Odin and they were nice good pagans.

The intercession argument is a nice old way of sidestepping the issue. If God loves us we don't need intercessors. Why the hell go through them if God is the only God, knows our wants and needs, etc? It shouldn't matter whether Mary steps in for us at all.

EDIT: Also the Cult of Mary is in its own place in the church, no other Saint can possibly approach her popularity. No other saint is mentioned by the Pope as often and certainly not in the same breath as Jesus or God. And also by ignoring the Hispanic Catholics you are ignoring a goodly portion of Catholics.

[Imperial Overlord]

<snip>.

Beat you to it Aly.

With the Medieval Church, they didn't believe God was a nice guy. Life was rough and God was harsh. You needed someone on your side to convince God to take it easy on you. God might not care much about you, but he loves his saints. That's what makes them saints. So you ask Mary, the Archangel Michael, or Saint Mark to talk to God for you and convince him to help you.

The Latin American Church isn't really any different from mainstream Catholicism. It just happened more recently, so it is more obvious that the Virgin of Guadalupe is really an Aztec Corn Goddess. It's just the standard "pagan god x really is archangel y or saint z".

[Alyrium Denryle]

Ok, here is when I set the record straight. latin american catholics asside(because their useage of catholicism is the result of the fusion between christianity and their ancient traditional religions) they dont pray to the saints or to the virgin, they pray for their intercession to carry their messages to god. There is a very subtle difference.

When a catholic prays they ask the patron saint of whatever they are praying for to interceede on their behalf, in order to get a better result. For mundane matters they pray directly equivalent to going to a Judge directly and representing yhourself when the stakes arent high, like atraffic ticket or marriage liscence... or something.

When the stakes are hgiehr they ask a patron saint to act as the equivalent of a lawyer and represent them, speaking to god via proxy. When making a pilgrimage they ask the patron saint of journies to relay their message to god and help them make it on their trip sucessfully. Whenever they need forgivness they ask the Virgin, which is the equivalent of hiring a badass defense lawyer to argue their case before God.

That's an awful lot of words to say they pray to the saint to get them a result. The Norse could say they were praying for Thor to intercede on their behalf to Odin and they were nice good pagans.

The intercession argument is a nice old way of sidestepping the issue. If God loves us we don't need intercessors. Why the hell go through them if God is the only God, knows our wants and needs, etc? It shouldn't matter whether Mary steps in for us at all.

EDIT: Also the Cult of Mary is in its own place in the church, no other Saint can possibly approach her popularity. No other saint is mentioned by the Pope as often and certainly not in the same breath as Jesus or God. And also by ignoring the Hispanic Catholics you are ignoring a goodly portion of Catholics.

It is a tradition at this point man. But see IO's previous post.

[Ravengrim]

Pre-Nicean christianity bears little to no resemblance to what is known as christianity today. The Catholic Encyclopedia will even tell you what shit is made up and what is in the bible. This is where the infallability of the pope comes up, and the notion that doctrine is on par with biblical teachings. I was a christian for most of my life. I have actually READ the bible, twice (the vast majority of christians havent evern read half). I could debate biblical teachings with the best of them, but I wont. Its all BS. I just cant wait until the new pope stops making the front page we can get back to things that actually matter, like curing cancer or something.

[Shroom Man 777]

Question, do the majority of the people who do this stuff actually know they're having the saints and Mary intercede for them and stuff?

[Imperial Overlord]

Yes. The whole point is to have the saint intercede on your behalf because of your connection with the saint. I don't know if they believe that God has granted them power to interviene directly or they think He is just more likely to listen to his saints.

[General Brock]

No, the Virgin Mary is a poor substitute for a real goddess. The meaning ain't there; she's no Isis. A goddess has some independent initiative, even in a male-dominated pantheon. The difference between the pagans and christian cults is that there was a real delegation of powers, responsibility and authority in most pagan religions I am aware of. (Admittedly sketchy) Christian saints and the Virgin Mary are examples of how to kowtow to a jealous and vindictive patriarchial deity.

[HemlockGrey]

Catholics worship a virgin? Man, church is so different from high school.

[Crown]

Pope Benny in his inaugural address to the faithful said with the help of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Mother Mary I hope to be able to fulfill my duties and obligations. Now, Jesus was mentioned why is Mary in that same level as Jesus?

Because Catholics are heretics.

She is just a woman. Oddly enough also born without sin, gotta love Christian retconning of a woman's past. If I do something really cool can the Pope declare that I too was born without sin? But i digress.

Congratulations, you've just stumbled onto one of the long list of complaints that the Arch Bishop of Athens handed to the Arch Bishop of Rome that details the un-warranted change in the faith.

She is a Revered figure in the Church, her image is in every church and cathedral, right along side Christ's. Anyone walking into a church that knew nothing about Christinaity at all would assume that Jesus and Mary were the Gods of the Christrian religion.

Now before the Catholic apologists come worming out of the woodwork and pointing like addled school children to the saints - point to me a fucking saint that gets anywhere near as much attention as Mary, hmm? There's a prayer that is said right alongside the Our Father...the Hail Mary. Her image is everywhere, ominipresent. Her name is mentioned by every Pope right along side or after Christ's. There's no damned Saint that comes anywhere near that level of official recognition and outright worship and devotion.

Hispanic culture elevates her to a divine state. Look at the various virgins found throughout Latin America, each one fiercely defended by their devotees...but isn't she just a woman? And the same woman at that? Then why is the Virgion of the Cobre from Cuba different in portrayal and aspect than the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexico? Hispanics claim to be devoted to a particular virgin, not THE virgin. Get my drift?

So if we are only allowed to worship only one God and we accept the Holy Trinity so that worshipping Jesus and the Holy Spirit (who really gets no love in Catholicism the poor bastard) and God are all one in the same - Just what precisely is Mary's place then? Why not give up the ghost and call her what she seems to be - a co-God or Goddess.

The full list of complaints from the Orthodox Arch Bishops, agains the Bishop of Rome can be found here, I'll quote some highlights.

THE INNOVATIONS

Although the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church are closer to the beliefs of the Orthodox Church than are those of any other churches, it is necessary to list a few of the innovations added by the Roman Church after the separation of the Western from the Eastern Church. Also, it is necessary to mention that the attitude of the Western section of the One Church, even before the Schism, was not free from arbitrariness. The Western branch tended to centralize administrative power, a characteristic inherited from the early Roman political tendencies toward a totalitarian government. Following is the list of innovations.

Primacy

The supreme episcopal jurisdiction of the Pope, who is called the Vicar of Christ (a title of the Roman pontiff dating from the 8th century) expresses his claim to universal jurisdiction and implies that the other bishops are not equal to him, but subordinate to him as his representatives - a claim that is foreign to the ancient Church.

Infallibility

In 1870 the Roman Catholic Church, at the Vatican Council, declared that infallibility (the inability to err in teaching the revealed truth) was attached to the definition of the Pope in matters of faith and morals, apart from the consent of the Church. The Vatican Council declared:

"Jesus Christ has three existences. His personal existence, which Arius denied; His mystical existence in the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, which Calvin denied; and His other existence, which completes the first two and through which He lives constantly, namely His authority in the person of His Vicar on Earth. The Council, maintaining this third existence, assures the world that is possesses Jesus Christ."

Herein, the Synods were abolished.

The Procession of the Holy Spirit

The insertion of the phrase filoque, meaning "and the son", in the eighth article of the Nicene Creed, to read that the Holy Spirit proceeds not only from the Father but also from the Son as well, perverts the theological teaching of the Gospel and the Undivided Church (John 15,26; Acts 2,33).

Purgatory and indulgences

Purgatory is an intermediate state where souls are made clean for paradise by expiatory suffering, according to the Roman Church. It is a place or state for penitent souls departing this life cleansed from venial sins and temporal punishment due to remitted mortal sins. In the Roman Church, indulgences are a remission by those authorized of the temporary punishment still due to sin after sacramental absolution either in this world or in purgatory.

The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary

In 1854 a council of the Vatican pronounced the new teaching that the Virgin Mary was born without original sin, a statement not found either in the Holy Scriptures or in Sacrad Tradition. (The Undivided Church taught and teaches the virgin birth of Jesus Christ only) The Orthodox Church honors highly the Virgin Mary as the Theotokos, the unique personality chosen by God to serve the highest mission toward the salvation of mankind in the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.

Assumption of the Virgin Mary

The assumption (bodily ascension) of the Virgin Mary was pronounced as a dogma in 1952 by the Pope of the Rome Church. This belief is not found in the Scriptures nor is it found in the Sacred Tradition.

Baptism

Baptism, which originally was an immersion of the body of the faithful in the water, was replaced during the 14th century in the Roman Church by sprinkling.

Invocation

The invocation, or epiklesis, which is a prayer offered at the time of the change of the Holy Gifts (bread and wine), is omitted by the Roman Church, which uses only the scriptural words, "Take, eat ..." and "Drink ye all of it ..."

Unleavened Bread

Unleavened bread is used by the Roman Church instead of leavened bread, which was the tradition of the Undivided Church.

Holy Communion

Holy Communion in the Roman Church is given to the layman only from the sanctified bread and not from the sanctified wine, which now is restricted to the clergy.

Holy Unction

Holy Unction is offered as last rites to the sick, an innovation of the eleventh century.

Divorce

Divorce is not granted to the faithful in the Roman Church, which the Undivided Church issued.

Clergy's Marital Status

Marriage of the clergy is prohibited, a restriction imposed in the later centuries against the decision of the First Ecumenical Synod (325 A.D.).
HOPE FOR "UNITY OF FAITH"

[Crossroads Inc.]

It works out like this... She is a Traditional Jewish Mother. Now, if you wanted to ask a certain Jewish Capenter to do something... Who would you goto, Him? Or ask his Mother to MAKE Him do it!

[McC]

For crying out loud, she wasn't a virgin at all. *shakes fist at the mistranslation*

[Mobiboros]

For crying out loud, she wasn't a virgin at all. *shakes fist at the mistranslation*

It's not really a mistranslation so much as a later redefinition. It's hopelessly naive to think a married jewish woman hasn't had sex. Hell, you have to have sex to consecrate the marriage by Jewish tradition (it's also very silly to think she had no more kids, but many do).

Later on they decided that not only couldn't the savior be born of a woman who knew men (she must be pure!) but she too was a virgin birth as well. The "Feast of the Immaculate Conception" celebrates the virgin birth of Mary, not Christ.

Sad for them that I think this backfired in the modern day to some extent. Rather than adding 'mystery' it only adds another layer of unbelievability.

[The Prime Necromancer]

Is there really all that much difference between "No, we don't worship Mary and the Saints, we just ask them to intercede for us... shut up, we do!" and "Yes, we're a monotheism who worship the same God as the Jews! God is three seperate persons but he's also one guy because of... miracles, or something. Shut up, we are!"

It's just a different example of splitting hairs. Frankly "Mary worship" is just fine with me since females tend to get the shaft in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions anyway, what with being unclean and weak and all. At least Mary gives women a little bit of representation, as opposed to the male diety, male Jesus, male apostles, male prophets, etc.

Of course, I don't give a flying fuck about Scripture, so the church could come out tomorrow and just declare polytheism and I wouldn't care.

[Enforcer Talen]

if you really want to put the cat in the politicians, consider that jewish males got married as a matter of form, which jesus is listed as.

[Stravo]

if you really want to put the cat in the politicians, consider that jewish males got married as a matter of form, which jesus is listed as.

There is a passage in one of the gospels about Mary coming to visit Jesus and having his brothers and sisters with her implying of course that Mary had other children with Joseph.

[SirNitram]

Of course it's the same as worship. Anyone watching with an informed, unbiased perspective will see it immediately. The Saints fall between lesser deities(Eros vs. Aphrodite), or Household Gods(Lartes and Potes), depending.

Of course, there's alot of voluminous bullshit around because this has been pointed out many times before and Christians tend to shit themselves at being the same as THEM DIRTY PAGANS.

[Stravo]

Here's what a quick search dug up on my recollection of Jesus having brothers:

From the gospel of John

John 7
Jesus' Brothers Don't Have Faith in Him

1Jesus decided to leave Judea and to start going through Galilee because the Jewish leaders of the people wanted to kill him. 2It was almost time for the Festival of Shelters, 3and Jesus' brothers said to him, "Why don't you go to Judea? Then your disciples can see what you are doing. 4No one does anything in secret, if they want others to know about them. So let the world know what you are doing!" 5Even Jesus' own brothers had not yet become his followers.
6Jesus answered, "My time hasn't yet come, [a] but your time is always here. 7The people of this world cannot hate you. They hate me, because I tell them that they do evil things. 8Go on to the festival. My time hasn't yet come, and I am not going." 9Jesus said this and stayed on in Galilee.

Jesus at the Festival of Shelters

10After Jesus' brothers had gone to the festival, he went secretly, without telling anyone.

and a brief summary of the brothers from here

The synoptic gospels mention that Jesus had brothers who were at least uninvolved in his ministry if not actively opposed to it. And yet we know from Paul's letters and the letters of James and Jude (two of Jesus' brothers) in the New Testament that Jesus' brothers played a prominent role in the life of the earliest church.

Wow, guess that Infallibility in regards to Mary's virginity is working overtime. Let's all submit our wills and intellects now to the Pope's teachings on this matter.

[The Dark]

For crying out loud, she wasn't a virgin at all. *shakes fist at the mistranslation*

It's not really a mistranslation so much as a later redefinition. It's hopelessly naive to think a married jewish woman hasn't had sex. Hell, you have to have sex to consecrate the marriage by Jewish tradition (it's also very silly to think she had no more kids, but many do).

No, it is a mistranslation. The Hebrew word for "young woman" and "virgin" is basically synonymous, it's mostly context that determines usage. The Isaiah "prophecy" spoke of the Messiah being born of a young woman/virgin, with a strong connotation of young woman rather than virgin. The Greek language has the two as completely separate. When the Tanak was translated into the Septuagint (Greek OT), the translators chose to use the word for virgin.

[Ravengrim]

In not one place in the Bible does it say that Mary was Holy or was supposed to be worshipped at all. She isn't even really in the Bible that much. And yes, the elevation of Mary to near-divinity is an extension of the Heathen goddess-worship. Having a god without a female counterpart was so alien to the thinking of those they were trying to convert, they had to come up with something similar. Again, it is a matter of dogma rather than an actual biblical teaching.