Total Annihilation force vs. SW Acclamators

[Shinova]

Since we know the basic firepower, and general weapon arrangement of the Acclamator transports, debate this:


3 Acclamators inside atmosphere, relatively close to the ground

vs.

1,000 TA normal, various units and 3 Krogoths.




Which side wins?

[Sea Skimmer]

Depends totally on whose fan fic we take firepower stats from. So Star Wars wins easily. I can write something which has TA firepower little higher then a WW2 military and it would hold as much weight as he mach 60 wank fests, most of which are lost anyway.

[Alyeska]

Depends totally on whose fan fic we take firepower stats from. So Star Wars wins easily. I can write something which has TA firepower little higher then a WW2 military and it would hold as much weight as he mach 60 wank fests, most of which are lost anyway.

The Fanfics have nothing to do with this. TA Nukes have the standard firepower of 100 MT. Krogoths are rated around 25 MT on their big laser.

[Uraniun235]

Not necessarily... there was also a set of calcs done at Spacebattles that put 1 point of damage as equal to 2 KT, 6.25 KT, 25 KT, or 125 KT, depending on how low- or high-end you want to take it.

So, high end, the "nukes" (which are AM bombs according to the manual) have a max yield of 1.25 GT (assuming a nuke is 5000 damage points).

Even so, the TA forces are simply outgunned, since there are no bases from which to launch the huge number of nukes it would take, and the Krogoth cannot produce enough firepower on their own.

SW is in a weird spot regarding starship firepower though... seems like it either outperforms by an impossibly huge margin, or is outperformed by said margin.

SW ground forces, on the other hand, would have their asses handed to them by TA.

[Sea Skimmer]

Depends totally on whose fan fic we take firepower stats from. So Star Wars wins easily. I can write something which has TA firepower little higher then a WW2 military and it would hold as much weight as he mach 60 wank fests, most of which are lost anyway.

The Fanfics have nothing to do with this. TA Nukes have the standard firepower of 100 MT. Krogoths are rated around 25 MT on their big laser.

And this information comes from where?

[XaLEv]

TA wins, due to the sound made by a Krogoth as it fires it's BLoD being soo much cooler than the sound made by a TL firing.

[Alyeska]

Depends totally on whose fan fic we take firepower stats from. So Star Wars wins easily. I can write something which has TA firepower little higher then a WW2 military and it would hold as much weight as he mach 60 wank fests, most of which are lost anyway.

The Fanfics have nothing to do with this. TA Nukes have the standard firepower of 100 MT. Krogoths are rated around 25 MT on their big laser.

And this information comes from where?

Ok, I checked on this. The 100 MT firepower is indeed from a TAfanfic that states the standard yield TA Nuke is 100 MT. There are cases of more and less firepower, but those are not standard. There is also the Omega Missile which is a CORE weapon that can shatter a Moon sized satelite in a single hit, but again this is not a standard weapon.

That is not to say TA gets rolled over COMPLETELY. The LRPCs (Long Range Plasma Cannons) can be altered to fire into space. The Rapid Fire LRPCs can also be modded to fire into space. With a refire of 3 shots per second at 30 or so MT per shot, a group of 50 some RFLRPCs could do sustained damage that could theoretically hurt an Acclamator. Throw in salvos of nukes and things get interesting. However the Acclamator has much more sheer firepower and it could wipe out entire formations of TA ground forces.

[Shinova]

Galactic War Reports (?) is where most of the calcs come from. Cavedog declared them canon, I believe.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Fanfics have nothing to do with this. TA Nukes have the standard firepower of 100 MT. Krogoths are rated around 25 MT on their big laser.

And this information comes from where?

Ok, I checked on this. The 100 MT firepower is indeed from a TAfanfic that states the standard yield TA Nuke is 100 MT. There are cases of more and less firepower, but those are not standard. There is also the Omega Missile which is a CORE weapon that can shatter a Moon sized satelite in a single hit, but again this is not a standard weapon.

That is not to say TA gets rolled over COMPLETELY. The LRPCs (Long Range Plasma Cannons) can be altered to fire into space. The Rapid Fire LRPCs can also be modded to fire into space. With a refire of 3 shots per second at 30 or so MT per shot, a group of 50 some RFLRPCs could do sustained damage that could theoretically hurt an Acclamator. Throw in salvos of nukes and things get interesting. However the Acclamator has much more sheer firepower and it could wipe out entire formations of TA ground forces.

As I expected, Fan fiction. I can write my own contradicting evidence.

[Sea Skimmer]

Galactic War Reports (?) is where most of the calcs come from. Cavedog declared them canon, I believe.

The only firepower information that I've ever heard that came from these phantom war reports, no one has ever produced one when I've asked, was that a large battle between an Arm and Core force had gigatons of firepower thrown around. Of course the United States and USSR could also throw gigatons of firepower around in a matter of minutes.

How people get stuff like the 500 kiloton AK lasers from that I don't know. Even if both sides had only 500 units, and all where AK's you be into the teraton range in less the two minutes combat.


This is why TA just doesnt work for vs. debates. You can make up your own information, much of what people quote has been lost and much of whats written is contradicting.

[Lord of the Farce]

From my short venture of Spacebattles a long time ago, it seemed to me that many of the high end superpower figures came from this logic: "some fanfic said so-and-so massive gigatons of firepower was thrown around over this planet, and later there is a Galactic War Report which mentions the planet that was used in the fanfic, therefore Cavedog has approved the so-and-so massive gigatons of firepower as canon by extention". That might be or might not be the precise arguement, but that seemed to be the gist of it.

[Shinova]

I would like to say this ahead of time:


Cavedog saying that Galactic War Reports are canon is like Lucas saying the EU are canon.

[SylasGaunt]

Galactic War Reports (?) is where most of the calcs come from. Cavedog declared them canon, I believe.

The Galactic War reports are canon because Cavedog wrote them. As for the fanfic only SOME was declared canon, not all.

The only firepower information that I've ever heard that came from these phantom war reports, no one has ever produced one when I've asked, was that a large battle between an Arm and Core force had gigatons of firepower thrown around. Of course the United States and USSR could also throw gigatons of firepower around in a matter of minutes.

Consider the quote supplied.

http://web.archive.org/web/199910132020 ... g_3-9.html

[Lord of the Farce]

The Galactic War reports are canon because Cavedog wrote them. As for the fanfic only SOME was declared canon, not all.

Me, I just want to see someone providing a quote from Cavedog (or better yet, Chris Taylor) stating exactly what and what isn't canon according to them.

Consider the quote supplied.

http://web.archive.org/web/199910132020 ... g_3-9.html

You mean this?
"... Coldfire's troops pressed their final charge, overwhelming the last of Gnug's battered and surprised troops, driving them into the ground with gigatons worth of explosive power."

-If we were to assume that meant "hundreds" but still under "thousands" of gigatons with <2,000 gigatons, and that is divided to 12 units over the span of a minute, that would be 2.776 gigatons a second per unit.
-If we were to assume that the lack of mentions of "tens of gigatons" as meaning <20 gigatons, and that is divided to 24 units over the span of a minute, that would be 13.9 megatons per second per unit.

Considering that large scale TA battles usually involve dozens of mobile units, and more or less than that in stationary defensive units, well you can probably tell where I'm going with this...

[Alyeska]

As I expected, Fan fiction. I can write my own contradicting evidence.

As long as it follows the presedence of already written TA Fanfic, then it would be accepted. Values for the TA ground forces have for the most part been agreed upon and the TA stories don't contradict eachother on this greatly. This includes weapons like the Big Bertha and Annihilator being able to be converted into anti-space weapons.

[SylasGaunt]

You mean this?
"... Coldfire's troops pressed their final charge, overwhelming the last of Gnug's battered and surprised troops, driving them into the ground with gigatons worth of explosive power."

-If we were to assume that meant "hundreds" but still under "thousands" of gigatons with <2,000 gigatons, and that is divided to 12 units over the span of a minute, that would be 2.776 gigatons a second per unit.
-If we were to assume that the lack of mentions of "tens of gigatons" as meaning <20 gigatons, and that is divided to 24 units over the span of a minute, that would be 13.9 megatons per second per unit.

Considering that large scale TA battles usually involve dozens of mobile units, and more or less than that in stationary defensive units, well you can probably tell where I'm going with this...

Except it's talking about Coldfire's troops there, doesn't say anything about what the other side is firing back with.

Someone did another calc like that here: http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... d=29846&s=

[Sea Skimmer]

The Galactic War reports are canon because Cavedog wrote them. As for the fanfic only SOME was declared canon, not all.

Me, I just want to see someone providing a quote from Cavedog (or better yet, Chris Taylor) stating exactly what and what isn't canon according to them.

Consider the quote supplied.

http://web.archive.org/web/199910132020 ... g_3-9.html

You mean this?
"... Coldfire's troops pressed their final charge, overwhelming the last of Gnug's battered and surprised troops, driving them into the ground with gigatons worth of explosive power."

-If we were to assume that meant "hundreds" but still under "thousands" of gigatons with <2,000 gigatons, and that is divided to 12 units over the span of a minute, that would be 2.776 gigatons a second per unit.
-If we were to assume that the lack of mentions of "tens of gigatons" as meaning <20 gigatons, and that is divided to 24 units over the span of a minute, that would be 13.9 megatons per second per unit.

Considering that large scale TA battles usually involve dozens of mobile units, and more or less than that in stationary defensive units, well you can probably tell where I'm going with this...

In game they involved hundreds or thousands. Gigatons could just as easily mean 2-5 as 100+. In fact that makes far more sense, as other wise it would say tens or hundred of Gigatons. I'd find anything going over 20 to be suspect as best.

[Alyeska]

In game they involved hundreds or thousands. Gigatons could just as easily mean 2-5 as 100+. In fact that makes far more sense, as other wise it would say tens or hundred of Gigatons. I'd find anything going over 20 to be suspect as best.

Agreed. However even if you assume thats a mere 2 GT, that is some hefty firepower that TA weapons have.

[Sea Skimmer]

In game they involved hundreds or thousands. Gigatons could just as easily mean 2-5 as 100+. In fact that makes far more sense, as other wise it would say tens or hundred of Gigatons. I'd find anything going over 20 to be suspect as best.

Agreed. However even if you assume thats a mere 2 GT, that is some hefty firepower that TA weapons have.

Yes, kiloton-range anyway. I'd expect there lesser level 1 units to be one line with the largest Star Wars walkers while the big units can outgun the heaviest Star Wars ground artillery by a rather large margin. Though the self-propelled turbolasers should be able to combat them, to a limited extent anyway. The result would be something like pitting a regiment of heavy tanks aginst a light mechanized battalion.

Star Wars infantry would be near useless unless the Arm or Core employs something like the T-90's from Terminators Future War.

[SylasGaunt]

In game they involved hundreds or thousands. Gigatons could just as easily mean 2-5 as 100+. In fact that makes far more sense, as other wise it would say tens or hundred of Gigatons. I'd find anything going over 20 to be suspect as best.

Indeed. The thread I linked to said that it was between 100-200 units according to one of the players, but I've never seen a recording of the game so I can't say for certain.

Another interesting point is that I don't think that quotes covers the entire battle, just the final charge by Coldfire.

[Alyeska]

In game they involved hundreds or thousands. Gigatons could just as easily mean 2-5 as 100+. In fact that makes far more sense, as other wise it would say tens or hundred of Gigatons. I'd find anything going over 20 to be suspect as best.

Agreed. However even if you assume thats a mere 2 GT, that is some hefty firepower that TA weapons have.

Yes, kiloton-range anyway. I'd expect there lesser level 1 units to be one line with the largest Star Wars walkers while the big units can outgun the heaviest Star Wars ground artillery by a rather large margin. Though the self-propelled turbolasers should be able to combat them, to a limited extent anyway. The result would be something like pitting a regiment of heavy tanks aginst a light mechanized battalion.

Star Wars infantry would be near useless unless the Arm or Core employs something like the T-90's from Terminators Future War.

IIRC the calc based on this using middle range figures (greater then 2 GT but less then 20) put the Level-1 TA units at mid range KT. This placed the Level-2 units at high KT to low MT. This in turn really jacked up the firepower on the nukes, Berthas, and other big static defense weapons.

Thats some serious firepower, and its even enough to threaten most scifi ships. But not SW ships. Then again if you REALLY wanted to get fair you could bring in TA ships, but the thread doesn't specify them.

Basically TA would own just about anything on the ground easily, but could be trumped by spaceships.

If someone really wanted to try for accurate weapon figures they could start with a base of just 2 GT. Then they can take and count every single shot fired in the game in question (there were at some point recordings out there) and tally the figures. Then you take the in game weapon stats and figure that in. Add all the shots together with their ingame stat weapon damage and then assume the whole thing equals 2 GT. Then you have a base to figure out what a single ingame unit is worth firepower wise.

The only problem is this requires a game recording, which there might not be any left. It also means scouring the entire battle in question and counting each and every single shot from every single vehicle from the one player. But if someone had a recording and the time to do this, we could get a base value for TA firepower that is purely canon.

[Alyeska]

Indeed. The thread I linked to said that it was between 100-200 units according to one of the players, but I've never seen a recording of the game so I can't say for certain.

Another interesting point is that I don't think that quotes covers the entire battle, just the final charge by Coldfire.

It does indeed cover just the final battle. It refers to Coldfire charging in and pounding his enemy with Gigatons of firepower. This is AFTER the other player had launched a nuke, so the nuke is not included with the firepower figures.

[SylasGaunt]

Well you don't really need to count every shot by every unit, just the ones by Coldfire's troops in their last charge (I don't know if the detonation of the ARM explosives was reflected in the game).

[Sea Skimmer]

Indeed. The thread I linked to said that it was between 100-200 units according to one of the players, but I've never seen a recording of the game so I can't say for certain.

Another interesting point is that I don't think that quotes covers the entire battle, just the final charge by Coldfire.

The game allows for 200-500 units per side. You can have up to ten sides but that only multiplayer. The real wars was just Arm and Core. Of course if each had more then one commander then who knows. The unit limit seem to be purely for play balancing because of the unlimited resources, not because the Commanders couldn't control more units then that. The manual doesn&#8217;t mention any such limit.

[Alyeska]

The game allows for 200-500 units per side. You can have up to ten sides but that only multiplayer. The real wars was just Arm and Core. Of course if each had more then one commander then who knows. The unit limit seem to be purely for play balancing because of the unlimited resources, not because the Commanders couldn't control more units then that. The manual doesn&#8217;t mention any such limit.

What he means is that the victor had attacked with 100-200 units.