Star Wars RPG question: Jedi or no Jedi ?

[Gunhead]

I've been running SW RPG for a while, and I don't have any jedi, sith or such in my game. I've never played in a SW campaign that had jedi in it.
Are there any other SW GMs or players like that in here, and what are your experiences?
So should I try to put them there and how have you handled jedi PCs and NPCs?
In general is there a reason I should have them in my game?

I think the SW universe is fantastic enough without them and I've never really missed them, but I'd like to get an alternative point of view.

-Gunhead

[Master of Ossus]

I've been running SW RPG for a while, and I don't have any jedi, sith or such in my game. I've never played in a SW campaign that had jedi in it.
Are there any other SW GMs or players like that in here, and what are your experiences?
So should I try to put them there and how have you handled jedi PCs and NPCs?
In general is there a reason I should have them in my game?

I think the SW universe is fantastic enough without them and I've never really missed them, but I'd like to get an alternative point of view.

-Gunhead

Jedi can be interesting characters, but more often than not they just turn into regular guys with lightsabers and the Force. Never allow that to happen.

[Stark]

If you can keep them in character, then it'd be an excellent addition. If not, guys with lightsabres. For most players, having the Force become clouded or useless when they act massively out of character will work. If they roleplay properly, there's no reason it would be a problem.

[irishmick79]

It depends on who plays them. Jedi characters can either bring the whole game together, or they can turn the game into a kill-crazy saberfest. Gun Bunnies should, under no circumstances, be given access to the force.

[Master of Ossus]

Gun Bunnies should, under no circumstances, be given access to the force.

Somebody sig that.

[Gunhead]

My whole take on the force has been that it's the stuff that makes the players heroes. I've just incorporated into the game as the sixth sense, the feel the characters get and stuff like that. So the force still is out there even if the jedi aren't.

-Gunhead

[Cabwi Desco]

Done.

Most importantly with jedi characters don't let them overtake every other character to the point where the jedi does everything before anyone else can. Even better try to restrict them to missions where their lightsabers and force are not needed, it'll frustrate the hell out of em.

[Elheru Aran]

Done.

Most importantly with jedi characters don't let them overtake every other character to the point where the jedi does everything before anyone else can. Even better try to restrict them to missions where their lightsabers and force are not needed, it'll frustrate the hell out of em.

They'll probably still use them anyway, on opponents and the other characters if need be. There'll always be a few TK'in morons...

[SirNitram]

All Jedi or no Jedi. I'm sorry, I've always felt that one should play Jedi as the powerhouses they are, and that means any normal non-Forcer would be in the dust.

Also, an all-Jedi group means you can safely base the story and adventures firmly in the Light/Dark struggle without leaving anyone else.

[namdoolb]

I've never played the D20 system outside of KOTOR, but I've dabbled in the old WEG system some.

'course under the old system the jedi paid a price for their force powers because anything they put into force powers had to come out of somewhere else. So the normal (non-force user) characters tended to be better than their jedi counterparts at mundane stuff.

As I understand the WOTC D20 system, the force users get the perks, but don't really pay any price for them as such. So I'd be wary about running a group that's half and half, because of the power disparity it would probably create.

That said though, it'd be interesting to throw in a force user as a villain, especialy if you want a powerful one that can be reccuring and give the players a really hard time.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm running a half Sith filled dark side campaign with the only problems being the guys who are playing Sith are doing so incompetently. They can fight damn well, but that's about it.

Now the non force using bounty hunter, she's badass. And their bosses favorite to boot.

No problems with the fact that the group is mixed.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I generally despise even the very existance of jedi in SW gaming materials (I was absolutely livid about them being in Galaxies). D6 was totally fucking biased towards them.

[Stofsk]

As I understand the WOTC D20 system, the force users get the perks, but don't really pay any price for them as such. So I'd be wary about running a group that's half and half, because of the power disparity it would probably create.

Hmm... not quite. The Jedi powers in D20 are skills, which can only be bought by skill points at level-up or by a generous GM with GM-Fiat. (IE I give them a free skill point for whatever reason... obviously this should be a rare occurance, but technicall Rule #1 of any RPG is "The GM is Always Right... so suck it down and quit complaining")

What this means is that in order to be good at force powers, you're likely to be mundane at 'normal' skills. Also to use a Force skill costs you a vitality point or several, and vitality points are the equivalent of hitpoints in SW D20. So... by using the force skills (Force Strike/Push, Lightning, Grip/Choke etc) you're putting yourself at a minute disadvantage in combat.

It kind of works out the same way, but being completely unfamiliar with the D6 version I cannot comment on it beyond that.

That said though, it'd be interesting to throw in a force user as a villain, especialy if you want a powerful one that can be reccuring and give the players a really hard time.

I forsee a moment like ESB. Han Solo quickdraws his blaster and shoots Vader, who effortlessly deflects each blast, then yanks his weapon out of his hand.

Yep, force user villain versus 'mundane' folk = not a good idea.

[Stofsk]

I think the SW universe is fantastic enough without them and I've never really missed them, but I'd like to get an alternative point of view.

Should you have them in your game?
Jedi vs Sith give an interesting 'feel' to a game, but it helps to understand what kind of game you RUN. Who are your PCs? What do they do? What 'style' of campaign is it - IE is it a military campaign and the characters are mercs? Or is it a 'free trader' game and the PCs are hoping to make a quick buck? Is it an exploration game? Political/Intrigue?

If I do have them in my game, how should I use them?
With vulnerabilities. Adventures should be tailored with your PCs in mind, and everyone should get a chance to shine and be in the spotlight. What this means is that you should never treat Jedi as though they're superhuman when compared next to everyone else. Jedi are powerful but they also have problems - the lure of the Dark Side, mass fire, someone's lucky shot, a bounter hunter wanting to add your lightsaber to his pile etc. Come up with something.

Never forget that everyone can call on the Force, it's just that everyone except Jedi and Force Adepts call it 'luck'.

[Eleas]

Never forget that everyone can call on the Force, it's just that everyone except Jedi and Force Adepts call it 'luck'.

Good point.

I hate to take up gaming systems again, but I'd say the system used would influence my decision.

Now, the WEG version's biggest flaw, aside from the Power Creep that set in after the first few supplements, was that you couldn't play a full fledged Jedi in game. Once you accept that limitation or rework the rules, it might be okay. But it does make me doubt I'd ever want to try to run a Jedi campaign again.

In d20 Star Wars, you can actually play a Jedi without sabering down six stormtroopers per round with five die to spare. I consider that a step up.

However, it has serious problems. In that game, I once tried to create a group of fairly skilled non-Jedi and a Jedi. Problem was, the system governing such Force users is broken too, albeit to a lesser degree. That is because of the fact that, stripping away all the topping, "Jedi" really is an euphemism for "high level character". So, going by the examples, the Jedi had to have a lot higher level. That was no problem, but it did create friction, because d20 encourages level hunt. The level, after all, is the ultimate determinant of how far a character has advanced. Thus, a high level character, or a Jedi (Level 8-12) will be significantly better in many respects when compared to a skilled Soldier (Level 5).

Of all the systems I've heard of, I think the Buffy version of the Unisystem handled this "division of labour" the best way, really. Cause when you think about it, Hero characters such as Buffy occupy a different position when compared to the rest of the characters. Something could be built on that.

I hope it can, anyway, cause we're building a SW conversion.

[Stofsk]

However, it has serious problems. In that game, I once tried to create a group of fairly skilled non-Jedi and a Jedi. Problem was, the system governing such Force users is broken too, albeit to a lesser degree. That is because of the fact that, stripping away all the topping, "Jedi" really is an euphemism for "high level character". So, going by the examples, the Jedi had to have a lot higher level.

Why? What caused you to determine this? Did you start the game with the PCs at level 1 or was there something that made you say "these guys should be higher"?

That was no problem, but it did create friction, because d20 encourages level hunt. The level, after all, is the ultimate determinant of how far a character has advanced. Thus, a high level character, or a Jedi (Level 8-12) will be significantly better in many respects when compared to a skilled Soldier (Level 5).

True.

I usually consider it a form of meritocracy, that the higher your character is in terms of class, the more powerful he should be and rightly so. (that said you can still fumble in D20 but nevermind that...) When the class itself lends to that, I start thinking "maybe it should be a prestige class." I think the equaliser is meant to be the roleplaying the GM is expected to enforce. In other words, the Jedi aren't meant to go ballistic with the Force powers - they're supposed to use it for knowledge and defence, after all - so that's why you don't go nuts with lightning or what not. But when you're in combat it's better to kill than be killed, so... I dunno.

This is why I've made my own D20 setting. But that's not really relevant...

[Eleas]

Why? What caused you to determine this? Did you start the game with the PCs at level 1 or was there something that made you say "these guys should be higher"?

Partially, it was looking at what a level 1 Jedi could accomplish and putting him into context with a Jedi Knight. Partially, it came from looking at people like Obi-Wan, Luke, etc. And realizing that as the most unready Jedi ever, barely more than a Padawan in fact, Luke was a Level 7 Jedi Guardian.

True.

I usually consider it a form of meritocracy, that the higher your character is in terms of class, the more powerful he should be and rightly so. (that said you can still fumble in D20 but nevermind that...) When the class itself lends to that, I start thinking "maybe it should be a prestige class." I think the equaliser is meant to be the roleplaying the GM is expected to enforce. In other words, the Jedi aren't meant to go ballistic with the Force powers - they're supposed to use it for knowledge and defence, after all - so that's why you don't go nuts with lightning or what not. But when you're in combat it's better to kill than be killed, so... I dunno.

This is why I've made my own D20 setting. But that's not really relevant...

I think what I'd do is simply break away the attack bonus and make it part of the skills, so that attack skills, defense etc weren't so dependent on Level.

Naah, too easy. I'll do a mod on the Unisystem instead.

But there is one thing you can do that might actually be interesting. Put a check mark every time the "active" aspects of the Force are used gratitously. For every x (two or five would be a good number) of times the number of check marks, raise the DC of Farseeing rolls and other difficulties pertaining to focusing the Force over great distance. In case the checkmarks pile up hugely, consider keeping a few at the beginning of the next scenario.

This would represent the "clouding" of the Force described by Luke in Specter of the Past, which I found a very cool idea.

[Stofsk]

But there is one thing you can do that might actually be interesting. Put a check mark every time the "active" aspects of the Force are used gratitously. For every x (two or five would be a good number) of times the number of check marks, raise the DC of Farseeing rolls and other difficulties pertaining to focusing the Force over great distance. In case the checkmarks pile up hugely, consider keeping a few at the beginning of the next scenario.

I really like that idea. It says you can still use the skill, albeit you have to work a little harder. You can limit the PCs capabilities to tie in with the plot ("Shroud of the dark side clouds everything" or what have you), and it's a great way to have the rest of the party not depend on the Jedi guy with the superpowers ("What the fuck do you mean you can't use battlemind anymore, you little cunt? What the fuck do we have you around here for, anyway? Arsehole.").

I personally like the Consular's attack bonus better than the Guardian's. Actually I just like the Consular more. Seems to be a 'real' Jedi in the sense he studies the Force for knowledge and defence.

As for Luke being a level 7 Jedi Guardian ... he uh, got enough xp. <_< >_>

[NecronLord]

you should never treat Jedi as though they're superhuman when compared next to everyone else. Jedi are powerful but they also have problems - the lure of the Dark Side, mass fire, someone's lucky shot, a bounter hunter wanting to add your lightsaber to his pile etc. Come up with something.

You forget that out of 25,000 years of Jedi history, this has been true for less than one hundred. Before and after that they have been able to run at highway car speeds, become invisible at will - even the padawans - and generally shaft any fucker who gets in their way. Until Palpy showed up, only an insane bounty hunter would go after Jedi, and only a very wise one would kill Jedi that were after him. In essence, you could only, while sticking to the canon, make that work during a short period of time.

the Jedi aren't meant to go ballistic with the Force powers - they're supposed to use it for knowledge and defence, after all

Yes they are. Yoda says that meaning that they should never provoke a confrontation. If one starts, the first rule of the Jedi Order is to attack with maximum lethality, especially when outnumbered (RotJ novel)

[Gunhead]

I think it's worth mentioning I'm not using D20 SW. I don't touch D20 with an eleven foot pole. I use modified silhouette CORE, and loving it.
Combat can get pretty lethal specially when bigger guns are brought in, but as a GM I can always fudge the dice in the players favor at the cost of some experience points.
When we tested force skills taken mostly from WEG, the average jedi failed his parry roll once, only once that is. They still need work as skill point costs and such are still not worked out.

I'm currently running a lowdown dirty smuggler campaign about 10 years before ANH. So alot of dirty bars, dirty fights and a fistfull of credits.
It's also a setting where the jedi and so on are pretty non existent.
The SW campaign I think I'll place into the old republic where there are lots of jedi around, and are available as player characters.


-Gunhead

[Stofsk]

You forget that out of 25,000 years of Jedi history, this has been true for less than one hundred. Before and after that they have been able to run at highway car speeds, become invisible at will - even the padawans - and generally shaft any fucker who gets in their way. Until Palpy showed up, only an insane bounty hunter would go after Jedi, and only a very wise one would kill Jedi that were after him.

Point.

Yes they are. Yoda says that meaning that they should never provoke a confrontation. If one starts, the first rule of the Jedi Order is to attack with maximum lethality, especially when outnumbered (RotJ novel)

I'd forgotten that in the book. But you're right.

Still, there has to be something that makes the normal heroes at least able to relate to the Jedi hero, instead of superceded by them. Think of it as a gameplay issue rather one concerned about the setting. It comes down to how good you are as a Gamemaster to be able to navigate the game so that no player feels left out.

[NecronLord]

I would suggest that it depends on the era.

Early Republic: Very good. The Jedi arts are not as advanced as they will be later, which justifies all kinds of limitations.
Sith Wars: You're probably going to be all Jedi PCs or mostly so at this stage.
Post-Sith Republican Era: This is most problematic. Though there are Sith Lords in hiding, no Jedi canonically survives combat with them and lives to speak of it. Renegade Jedi would be the order of the day here.
Clone Wars: Probably the best era for mixed groups. Jedi aren't too hot in this time period.
Empire Era: Being a jedi is a severe disadvantage here. The Jedi will need constant help from other players to avoid the Inquisition. If they get uppity, grab the Wizards Jerec NPC, and throw him at them.
New Republic Era: Very limited number of Jedi.

[NecronLord]

I might get this RPG... *Looks at website, dark side character generator*

A Gungan Sith Lord?
Random Stats:
Sith Mastermind: Gungan Noble 4/Sith Acolyte 6/Sith Lord 5; Init +1; Def 24 (+1 Dex, +13 class); Spd 10m; VP/WP 72 / 10; Atk +12/+7/+2 melee (5d8+0, lightsaber), +13/+8/+3 ranged; SQ Hold breath, low-light vision, Bonus class skill (Intimidate), call in a favor (2), inspire confidence +1, command +2, resource access, minions; SV Fort +10, Ref +11, Will +17; SZ M; FP 5; DSP 2; Rep 12; Str 10, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 16. Challenge Code: E.

Equipment: Lightsaber, fine robes

Skills: Sense Motive +5, Knowledge (Sith lore) +7, Intimidate +9, Gather Information +3, Computer Use +6, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Knowledge (Jedi lore) +2, Read/Write Basic, Speak Sith, Speak Huttese

Force Skills: Force Grip +4, Telepathy +8, Heal Self +5, Enhance Ability +3, Fear +9, See Force +5, Force Stealth +2, Transfer Essence +4, Drain Energy +3, Affect Mind +2, Move Object +8, Control Mind +5, Empathy +6, Battlemind +5, Farseeing +6, Alchemy +5, Drain Knowledge +3, Illusion +3, Force Push +6, Enhance Senses +7, Force Defense +1

Feats: Force-Sensitive, Weapon Group Proficiency (simple weapons), Weapon Group Proficiency (blaster pistols), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (lightsaber), FameSkill Emphasis (Enhance Senses), Skill Emphasis (See Force), Skill Emphasis (Farseeing)

Force Feats: Alter, Control, Sense, Sith Sorcery, Force Mind, Force Lightning, Lightsaber Defense, Force Mastery, High Force Mastery

BWAHAHA, 'Jar Jar is the Sith Lord. Representative Binks is Sidious.'

[Eleas]

Still, there has to be something that makes the normal heroes at least able to relate to the Jedi hero, instead of superceded by them. Think of it as a gameplay issue rather one concerned about the setting. It comes down to how good you are as a Gamemaster to be able to navigate the game so that no player feels left out.

It's surprisingly doable to make a seemingly invincible character work with "lesser" characters. My own fantasy char, Thizara, is for example untouchable in most cases. How do you kill someone who can jump bodies?

Yet my GM and I have been able to make it work. My character has this awesome killing power, but she's learned the most difficult lesson of all: to not use it unless she absolutely must. I think the key here is to give the Jedi characters challenges different from that of the mundanes. That may be different from what most groups seem to do, but it's borne out by what happens in most of the movies. And, I think, for good reason.

[Stofsk]

"Wesa wipe dem out now, right Dooky?"