Clone trooper strength and production questions

[Illuminatus Primus]

As I said, what do they need it for? The Republic has no military, as far as they know- they don't need air defenses and massive defensive emplacements to fight off an enemy army or fleet that doesn't exist. There were some defensive emplacements around where the ships were landed, but the army that came out to meet the Loyalists was fresh off the factory-line.

Countless member state and corporate competitors as well as sector and regional military forces and criminals. This is a poor argument.

Anyway, there were defense emplacements. The theater-scale deflector shields prevented the landing of the Acclamator force adjacent to the field of battle and also prevented any sort of orbital or high-altitude fire-support (necessitating the SPHA-T deployment).

There were a number of anti-orbital weapons emplacements, but Mace Windu and Aayla Secura landed ahead of the fleet in with a group of repulsortanks and dispatched them immediately before challenging Dooku in the arena.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The 1 unit = 1 clone was affirmed in Labrynth of Evil (yes sucky I know), but it also refered to 'thousands' of worlds falling and it tells of non-clone soldiers (during the attack of Coruscant) so ... *shrug*

I believe, but have not yet confirmed, that Mace in Shatterpoint muses that 1.2 million clones is barely enough to garrison one world, let alone fight a war accross the galaxy though.

I can't remember the AotC novelisation on the subject though.

Apparently this is being exnayed in the future by LFL. I believe Ender found something contextually suggesting the 1.2 million referred to a particular type of clones. Anyhow, its quite clear that all the current clones are produced post the original 1.2 million due to the different breeds and armor and the fact Clone Commanders are introduced late in the war. There's obviously more than 1.2 million individual clone soldiers.

[Crown]

Apparently this is being exnayed in the future by LFL. I believe Ender found something contextually suggesting the 1.2 million referred to a particular type of clones. Anyhow, its quite clear that all the current clones are produced post the original 1.2 million due to the different breeds and armor and the fact Clone Commanders are introduced late in the war. There's obviously more than 1.2 million individual clone soldiers.

I agree with your analysis.

Do you remember where Ender posted his findings?

[Connor MacLeod]

When Dooku escapes we see some ships already in space, I thought there was a small battle happening the whole time mentioned somewhere.

According to the AOTC novel, "thousands" of Republic ships were attacking the CIS fleet

I don't recall the novel saying "thousands" Got a page numbert on that?

[Connor MacLeod]

The 1 unit = 1 clone was affirmed in Labrynth of Evil (yes sucky I know), but it also refered to 'thousands' of worlds falling and it tells of non-clone soldiers (during the attack of Coruscant) so ... *shrug*

It was affirmed way back in the AOTC novelization (I always seem to be bringing this up when that gets argued.) so its been canon for years.

I believe, but have not yet confirmed, that Mace in Shatterpoint muses that 1.2 million clones is barely enough to garrison one world, let alone fight a war accross the galaxy though.

I can't remember the AotC novelisation on the subject though.

Various sources tend to treat it different ways. In Hard Contact they had "millions" of clone troopers (same with the AOTC: ITW book). The 2nd Revised WOTC RPG for SW listed the Republic as ordering 1000 more Acclamators (IIRC), hinting at some 16 million troops. And in Clone Wars, we see some 30 or so Acclamators dispatched with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the first ep (some half a million clones.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Bad juju when you're fighting in a theater where your own civilians are underground.

Not really. There were no apparent hives near the combat zone. In any case, after the clones put several kilotons of KE into the ground by crashing a core ship, the Trade Fed may as well have cut loose with the laser cannons, as most of the Geonosians nearby would be killed by such an event anyway. That aside, they could still use the guns on the SPHA-Ts on a dialled down setting and made their passage into space easier.

The ships were running away at the time, I might point out. Considering they'd been sitting and taking on troopers, I doubt they'd been running at maximum capacity (That energy has to go somewhere.) What capacity they *could* maintain would be devoted to engines and shields (to protect against attack as well as getting up into orbit.) Even a SW ship needs time to reach maximum output (regardless of whether we're talking about engines or powerplant or whatnot.)

I might also point out that its entirely possible that *some* of the Core ships were unarmed, hence why none fired.

[Connor MacLeod]

Personally, I would have laughed my ass off if the Trade Fed Core ships had just fired up their 'multi-kiloton' guns and flattened the Clones approaching them.

Bad juju when you're fighting in a theater where your own civilians are underground.

They don't have to fire at maximum output though. A reduced-output blast would be more than sufficient (more than likely also giving them a substantial increase in rate of fire as well.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Anyway, there were defense emplacements. The theater-scale deflector shields prevented the landing of the Acclamator force adjacent to the field of battle and also prevented any sort of orbital or high-altitude fire-support (necessitating the SPHA-T deployment).

Where are you getting the bit about "theatre-scale deflector shields from?" The ITW:AOTC book?

[Connor MacLeod]

And you know what always bugged me about Geonosis?

No one saw a fleet that big coming.

A massive Republic Armada just happens to pop into Geonosis space, negotiates an asteroid field as thick as the one in Hoth and lands troops virtually unopposed and achieves instant air superiority. At a base where an army is being built and has been built for some time. A base where the leadership of the Separtist movement is meeting to decide to make the big plunge.

It always bugged me.

Detecting the fleet is going to depend heavily on what sorts of emissions the fleet gives off (while in hyperspace or out), countermeasures (if any exist for hyperspatial travel, which I would assume), and the quality of the sensors. There is almost no reason to expect them to be using active sensing continuousl when they have no reason to expect an attack (The Republic has no army, after all), and passive sensors aren't neccsarily going to detect anything (their effectiveness depends on the emissions they receive, after all.)

It also depends on whether or not there are obstructions that might block detection. FTL emissions (whether active sensor signals or emissions from hyperspace travel, if any) will be blocked by objects in realspace (including the asteroid field!) After all, Vader had wanted to use the Hoth asteroid field in TESB to shield Death Squadron's approach to Hoth - one would assume a similar situation could be had on Geonosis.

There's also always the possibility Yoda was able to cloud the minds of sensor operators and/or gunners to allow them to get close like that. He is rather the most powerful Jedi in the order, after all.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Anyway, there were defense emplacements. The theater-scale deflector shields prevented the landing of the Acclamator force adjacent to the field of battle and also prevented any sort of orbital or high-altitude fire-support (necessitating the SPHA-T deployment).

Where are you getting the bit about "theatre-scale deflector shields from?" The ITW:AOTC book?

Dr. Saxton has them referenced in his SPHA-T page and has awknowledgements reminding him of them, so I just figured...

[Vympel]

Countless member state and corporate competitors as well as sector and regional military forces and criminals. This is a poor argument.

I doubt any of those above have the military power to seriously stand up to the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Their Battleships are clearly above and beyond any ship the above could deploy. That they'd need serious defences to fend off that is unlikely at best.

Anyway, there were defense emplacements. The theater-scale deflector shields prevented the landing of the Acclamator force adjacent to the field of battle and also prevented any sort of orbital or high-altitude fire-support (necessitating the SPHA-T deployment).

What's the source?

There were a number of anti-orbital weapons emplacements, but Mace Windu and Aayla Secura landed ahead of the fleet in with a group of repulsortanks and dispatched them immediately before challenging Dooku in the arena.

Clone Wars game (the repulsortank thing)

[Connor MacLeod]

Anyway, there were defense emplacements. The theater-scale deflector shields prevented the landing of the Acclamator force adjacent to the field of battle and also prevented any sort of orbital or high-altitude fire-support (necessitating the SPHA-T deployment).

Where are you getting the bit about "theatre-scale deflector shields from?" The ITW:AOTC book?

Dr. Saxton has them referenced in his SPHA-T page and has awknowledgements reminding him of them, so I just figured...

I've never seen reference to theatre shields in any AOTC-oriented sourcee (at least the novel or the DK books.. unless its something more obsucre.) The only reference to shields was the ones on the capital ships (which prevented either side from bombarding them with capital scale weaponry.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

I doubt any of those above have the military power to seriously stand up to the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Their Battleships are clearly above and beyond any ship the above could deploy. That they'd need serious defences to fend off that is unlikely at best.

Bullshit: Kuat is just one example, and there are likely others. AOTC ICS makes it clear corporate warfare is something amply prepared for. There was no other credible opposition force to the Imperial military either, should they not have had defenses?

What's the source

Clone Wars game.

[Connor MacLeod]

Last I recall checking, the huge "local" Sector fleets (the ones with the big ships like the Mandators and such) were built primarily with short-range hyperdrives. The Acclamators were supposed to represent the reintroduction of large, long-range warships (again.)

You don't really need long-range hyperdrive capability to defend your own sector.

The Republic has a Navy that is presumably large and powerful enough to represent a danger to the Trade Federation, so its safe to presume they'd be able to fight the Separatists. Most of their fleet is (presumably) going to be smaller and less powerful than what the local defense fleets would have, but as far as we know, Geonosis (as of yet) has no actual fleet. They don't really expect the Republic to (yet) declare a war - you can't win by just the Navy alone.

Moreover, its entirely possible the ground defenses were taken out prior to the actual battle beginning. Yoda ordered a preemptive strike against the Geonosian fighter hangars, for example. So its safe to assume that he might have launched similar such attacks against ground weaponry (at least the capital scale stuff.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Incidentally, the ITW:AOTC book says the Trade Federation core ships weren't armed, so thats presumably why the Core ships at Geonosis didn't fire on the clone troopers with point defense guns.

[Vympel]

Wait a minute, how can the Republic itself (rather than just its members, like Naboo) have a Starfleet or any other kind of military force? In that era, they didn't have a military at all until AOTC ("Military Creation Act") etc.

[Vympel]

Bullshit: Kuat is just one example, and there are likely others. AOTC ICS makes it clear corporate warfare is something amply prepared for. There was no other credible opposition force to the Imperial military either, should they not have had defenses?

See what Connor said about the subject- just because there's corporate warfare doesn't mean Geonosis was on some sort of hair trigger alert to fight off invaders.

[Connor MacLeod]

Wait a minute, how can the Republic itself (rather than just its members, like Naboo) have a Starfleet or any other kind of military force? In that era, they didn't have a military at all until AOTC ("Military Creation Act") etc.

they had no ARMY. THey clearly had a navy (of sorts). In Rogue Planet the Trade Federation forces were supposed to be absorbed into the Navy.

Besides which, IIRC the TPM novelization features a scene where Anakin meets a Republic pilot (former one) who flew both smaller fighters and the bigger ships (I think "battlecruisers" were mentioned.)

[Vympel]

I really need a copy of the TPM novelization.

[Meest]

they had no ARMY. THey clearly had a navy (of sorts). In Rogue Planet the Trade Federation forces were supposed to be absorbed into the Navy.

Besides which, IIRC the TPM novelization features a scene where Anakin meets a Republic pilot (former one) who flew both smaller fighters and the bigger ships (I think "battlecruisers" were mentioned.)

Maybe it's better just to view them as a Coast Guard type force than anything.

[Connor MacLeod]

Bullshit: Kuat is just one example, and there are likely others. AOTC ICS makes it clear corporate warfare is something amply prepared for. There was no other credible opposition force to the Imperial military either, should they not have had defenses?

See what Connor said about the subject- just because there's corporate warfare doesn't mean Geonosis was on some sort of hair trigger alert to fight off invaders.

Large scale fleet battles between corporate competitors probably would not be permitted by the Republic any more than the blockade and occupation of Naboo was. Battles involving hundreds or even dozens of warships would be even less likely to be allowed (especially when the war over nearby planets has a risk of harming the planet itself.)

[Connor MacLeod]

they had no ARMY. THey clearly had a navy (of sorts). In Rogue Planet the Trade Federation forces were supposed to be absorbed into the Navy.

Besides which, IIRC the TPM novelization features a scene where Anakin meets a Republic pilot (former one) who flew both smaller fighters and the bigger ships (I think "battlecruisers" were mentioned.)

Maybe it's better just to view them as a Coast Guard type force than anything.

A coast guard with battlecruisers? Come on.

[Stark]

The RepFleet getting the drop on the bugboys is probably what Vader wanted to do in ESB: perhaps they appeared to low and deployed to quickly for the CIS to respond effectively?

[Alan Bolte]

Incidentally, the ITW:AOTC book says the Trade Federation core ships weren't armed, so thats presumably why the Core ships at Geonosis didn't fire on the clone troopers with point defense guns.

So, the core ships were on the ground in part because they were going to be upgraded to the armament listed in AOTC:ICS, but this upgrade had not yet taken place as of the battle?

It will be interesting to see if the core ships in ROTS use point-defense guns...

[Ender]

Apparently this is being exnayed in the future by LFL. I believe Ender found something contextually suggesting the 1.2 million referred to a particular type of clones. Anyhow, its quite clear that all the current clones are produced post the original 1.2 million due to the different breeds and armor and the fact Clone Commanders are introduced late in the war. There's obviously more than 1.2 million individual clone soldiers.

I agree with your analysis.

Do you remember where Ender posted his findings?

I didn't, it was Emailed

Long and short of it:

AOTC movie: we see something like 60,000+ troops in the landing field or lifting off in aclamators (i'd have to check my notes). You don't bring most of your well provisioned and armed army back from a position behind enemy lines to show them off, and then try and force your way back through a fortified front (fortified per shatterpoint).
AOTC novel: Obi wan's opinion only is 1 unit 1 clone.
Clone wars season 1: 32 aclamators deployed for a single battle, so they committed 512,000 clones to a single battle for a minor planet. 1.2 mil just don't work.
Shatterpoint: Mace says 1.2 mil clones like Jango (or some such, novel not handy). But Mace is on a snatch and grab commando mission, and thus far has only led commandos (AOTC), so he might be referring to 1.2 ARCs.
Cestus Deception: Obi wan says the ARC is one of 1.2 million, affirming my 1.2 mil arcs joke (this is when I began looking hard at it)
Hard Target: Said to be deploying millions of clones on hundreds of worlds 3 months post geonosis. Bam baby. Also resolves the hiding and feeding of trillions with Kamino's limited resources question by saying clones are put in suspended animation between tours.
Jedi Trial: Two more generations are expected in months. Clearly this is sped up.
Labrinth of Evil: 1.2 mil repeated, but again towards a group of ARCs.

1.2 million is arc troopers. We have quintillions of regular schmucks.