What would you take as proof of God?

[pecker]

I'm just wondering, what would everyone here consider as 'proof' that God (or a supreme being, spirit, whatever you like. Hell, you could take The Force for all I care)exists, meaning what would it take for you to believe?

And I'd like this to not degenerate into a religion-bashing thread. We've got enough of those already. I'm sure most of you know how to play nice

[Faram]

Omnipotence for me.

Then I would kill the old GOD for his/her/its crimes and be the new GOD...

[Durandal]

A direct, repeatable experiment of some sort.

[Ghost Rider]

pretty much what durandal said...that or him personally coming down here and annopucing himself and proving he/she/it is indeed all-powerful.

Aside from that still some strange pie in the sky....mmmm pie.

[neoolong]

A direct, repeatable experiment of some sort.

Yes, that concludes that God exists and not some other deity.

Or a big giant head coming down proclaiming that he is God and tosses fireballs around.

[pecker]

A direct, repeatable experiment of some sort.

Yes, that concludes that God exists and not some other deity.

That wasn't the question though. I asked for proof of ANY thing, be it any deity.

[Rhadamanthus]

A big glowing bearded guy appearing and saying, "Hah! Got ya!"

[Utsanomiko]

A direct, repeatable experiment of some sort.

Yes, that concludes that God exists and not some other deity.

That wasn't the question though. I asked for proof of ANY thing, be it any deity.

It is. A direct, repeatable experiment is always good evidence for something. That's basic science for you.

EDIT: referring to Durandal's quote, not Neoolong's reply. But one that specifically entails God's existence, and not some other deity, would be good proof for God, obviously.

[Darth Wong]

That wasn't the question though. I asked for proof of ANY thing, be it any deity.

Ah, this is an important point. You see, a lot of people believe in the Vague God rather than the Biblical God, because the Biblical God is ridiculously easy to disprove (fundies think otherwise, but fundies are idiots).

So, when scientists, skeptics, and atheists point out that there is no evidence of the Vague God, religionists ask "OK, what would you accept as evidence of the Vague God?" This is actually quite a good question; if someone refuses to define what he would be willing to accept as evidence, then he is arguably forwarding an unfalsifiable theory, and unfalsifiable theories are essentially tautologies.

However, there is a key logical flaw in the question, which is that it is conceptually impossible to prove anything which has not been defined. I can say that it is impossible to prove the Vague God's existence for the simple reason that the Vague God is undefined. You cannot prove anything which is undefined.

If you don't understand why you cannot prove something which is undefined, I suppose I can go on, but frankly, I would hope you find it self-evident.

[fennyCWAL]

Well, I'd be pretty sure some sort of God existed if I died and went to heaven/hell. Then I'd shower the dude/dudette with questions about why why why.

Then I'd tell him to f-off. I'm not swallowing my pride to serve him/her/it, no matter who it is

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Well, I'd be pretty sure some sort of God existed if I died and went to heaven/hell. Then I'd shower the dude/dudette with questions about why why why.

Then I'd tell him to f-off. I'm not swallowing my pride to serve him/her/it, no matter who it is

Somehow I doubt you need to worry about that.
Hmm I think "God" (the biblical one) was a bunch of cruel aliens anyway.. The moment a flying saucer lands on the White House lawn and starts giving away chunks of Ununpentium and detailed instructions as to how to use it to get to the stars to anyone and everyone who passes by, THEN I might consider that there may have been a god in ancient times...

[neoolong]

A direct, repeatable experiment of some sort.

Yes, that concludes that God exists and not some other deity.

That wasn't the question though. I asked for proof of ANY thing, be it any deity.

Perhaps I should rephrase. It must conclude that a specific deity exists as opposed to being attributed to any being that has superhuman powers.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Technically, it is impossible to prove God's existence even with miracles. This is simply because even if a "miracle" occured we do not know that "God" was its cause. Even if we know that the miracle was caused by some sort of consciousness we cannot know that it was "God" who caused it. Obviously, any being that is powerful enough to create such a miracle could easily decieve us as to its true nature. The only possible way for man to know "God" would be to be equal or near equal to "God" for then it would be difficult if not impossible for "God", or whatever claims to be "God", to decieve us. This is of course assuming we have a solid defination of what "God" is in the first place.

[Coyote]

The problem about arguing the existance or nature of God is that while we here refute the Fundies and their crackpot ideas, we embrace their vision of what God is! The last month or so, in various threads, many of you said that you would be very angry at God if you met him, and demand answers, explanations, or just vent your spleen at what a royal shit he's been.

But this assumes that if there is a God, it is exactly what the Fundies say he is. It is like accepting their vision while rejecting their argument. Not that this is a bad thing-- I'm not criticizing anyone here for this.

But God may well surprise people. The Fundies say that we are to quake in fear and wet our pants and become willing slaves to an all-powerful being who will smite you for mismatched socks. You might find yourself before God, and after telling him "Fuck you, you arrogant bastard, for all the pain and hellish misery of this world!" God may well find that agreeable, and say "This one belongs here, he's no sheep. Those snivelling yes-men from the churches disgust me with their constant whingeing. And those miserable paslms! They're so depressing!"

If God is, indeed, supposed to be good, and heaven is, indeed, supposed to be a reward, then a lot of surprised Fundies are going to be issued flame retardant underoos while free-thinkers, liberals, human rights activists and others who acted for the betterment of all get issued club cards. While they go into therapy, God pulls up chairs and serves up a few smooth brandys to the thinkers and questioners who figured it out, maybe even despite themselves...

[Darth Servo]

Technically, it is impossible to prove God's existence even with miracles. This is simply because even if a "miracle" occured we do not know that "God" was its cause. Even if we know that the miracle was caused by some sort of consciousness we cannot know that it was "God" who caused it. Obviously, any being that is powerful enough to create such a miracle could easily decieve us as to its true nature. The only possible way for man to know "God" would be to be equal or near equal to "God" for then it would be difficult if not impossible for "God", or whatever claims to be "God", to decieve us. This is of course assuming we have a solid defination of what "God" is in the first place.

There is also that little tidbit about the "miracle" truly being against the laws of physics. Take one of Mike's favorite examples of challenging a fundie with the "Drink deadly poison w/o harm" from Mark 16:18. If some Fundie were to actually accomplish this, don't you think every medical researcher in the world would be all over them trying to figure out how they did it possibly through some abnormal metabolism?

[pecker]

Yes, that concludes that God exists and not some other deity.

That wasn't the question though. I asked for proof of ANY thing, be it any deity.

Perhaps I should rephrase. It must conclude that a specific deity exists as opposed to being attributed to any being that has superhuman powers.

OK, that makes more sense. I was just thinking that you were saying a lack of proof for the specifically Christian God is a lack of proof for, say, Vishnu or something.

I'll say it this way: while you can say that there is a lack of proof for Yahweh, that does not immediately translate to a lack of proof for Zeus. However, both have a definitie lack of proof. I see a alck of proof for Yahweh, and a alck of proof for a deity in general as two different issues. Sorry for the confusion, I had just woken up

Wong-
I wasn't advocating the Vague God. I'm just trying to keep this open to any religion, be it Wiccan, Christian, Hindu, whatever. I'm well aware of people that turn to the vague God for security in belief.

[Utsanomiko]

I'm just trying to keep this open to any religion, be it Wiccan, Christian, Hindu, whatever. I'm well aware of people that turn to the vague God for security in belief.

Oh, well then, that makes it easy.

My Sky Pixie is real. She has the power to make things correct by default. Therefore, she is real, and she says no other deities exists.

Just had to put it up there. I simply can't discuss religion this month without consulting her first, seeing as how she's always correct by default.

[pecker]

I'm just trying to keep this open to any religion, be it Wiccan, Christian, Hindu, whatever. I'm well aware of people that turn to the vague God for security in belief.

Oh, well then, that makes it easy.

My Sky Pixie is real. She has the power to make things correct by default. Therefore, she is real, and she says no other deities exists.

Just had to put it up there. I simply can't discuss religion this month without consulting her first, seeing as how she's always correct by default.

Didn't i just ask you to play nice?

[jegs2]

I'm just wondering, what would everyone here consider as 'proof' that God (or a supreme being, spirit, whatever you like. Hell, you could take The Force for all I care)exists, meaning what would it take for you to believe?

And I'd like this to not degenerate into a religion-bashing thread. We've got enough of those already. I'm sure most of you know how to play nice

For me, the proof is what I feel in my heart, which is unexplainable. I'm afraid there is no physical experimentational proof availabe -- can't point to the Holy Spirit and say, "See! There he is; grab your tricorder and prove it to yourself." In the end, it is based on faith.

[aerius]

If some big person with a glowing aura descends from the sky and says "I am a god, watch as I instantly turn the all the waters of the oceans hot neon pink by peeing on them" and then proceeds to do so, I may just believe in a god. Anything short of that and I'll probably think "neh, stupid imposter...".

[Colonel Olrik]

If some big person with a glowing aura descends from the sky and says "I am a god, watch as I instantly turn the all the waters of the oceans hot neon pink by peeing on them" and then proceeds to do so, I may just believe in a god. Anything short of that and I'll probably think "neh, stupid imposter...".

That would not suffice.

Logic and a scientific analysis dictates one and only one rational possibility: I am delusional, and seriously drunk

[Utsanomiko]

I'm just trying to keep this open to any religion, be it Wiccan, Christian, Hindu, whatever. I'm well aware of people that turn to the vague God for security in belief.

Oh, well then, that makes it easy.

My Sky Pixie is real. She has the power to make things correct by default. Therefore, she is real, and she says no other deities exists.

Just had to put it up there. I simply can't discuss religion this month without consulting her first, seeing as how she's always correct by default.

Didn't i just ask you to play nice?

Uh, nope. Don't remember that.

Anyway, the Sky Pixie says I am playing nice. Sky Pixie says you really do believe in her. Sky Pixie says you don't need to mention her again, unless you want to try to disprove her existance.

[pecker]

I say sky Pixie is simply a manifestation, a facet, of the Universal Spirit. It simply reveals itself to you as the Sky Pixie as that is the only way a mind such as your could possibly comprehend it.

[Zoink]

I would need the same amount of proof that most "scientists" have used to determine the existance of most other animals: a dead carcass. Yes, that's right. If I saw my neighbor with shotgun in hand and God strapped to hood of his pickup. I'd say: "wow, he does exist."

[Sea Skimmer]

Omnipotence for me.

Then I would kill the old GOD for his/her/its crimes and be the new GOD...

Got to agree with both.