Effects of a transporter on a Jedi

[Setzer]

Would the mechanism of a transporter (killing and reconstructing) affect a Jedi's force powers? Possibly rendering them like Callista, with intelectual knowledge of Force usage, but inability to use Force skills? Or would there be no effect, since the body is reconstructed.

[Darth Wong]

Who says they would even work? They tend to have trouble transporting any life form with any sort of unusual energy field, eg- Species 8472 or Roga Danar.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Would the mechanism of a transporter (killing and reconstructing) affect a Jedi's force powers? Possibly rendering them like Callista, with intelectual knowledge of Force usage, but inability to use Force skills? Or would there be no effect, since the body is reconstructed.

You say that as though it is proven that a transporter actually kills and reconstructs a person. Most likely it will work just like it does on everyone else. Unless Jedi have shown abilities to block sensors, which I can't recall if they have or not. If so then they could probably jam the lock on.

[Guest]

i reckon the transporter buffer would detect the Midicloreans at a paracite and half the Jedi would dissapear.......then the transporter chief would gasp in horror causing as Warp Core Breach.

[pecker]

Transporters don't kill people.

Transporter Operators do

[jegs2]

Who says they would even work? They tend to have trouble transporting any life form with any sort of unusual energy field, eg- Species 8472 or Roga Danar.

Assuming the thing worked, I think it would have devasting effects, as it would destroy the original and create a clone. If, like me, one believes in a soul, how is that destroyed and then replicated, since it does not consist of physical matter? Similarly, I side with Mike, in that I don't think the things would work in the first place, but if they did, what "materialized" somewhere else would be "something" else.

[pecker]

Who says they would even work? They tend to have trouble transporting any life form with any sort of unusual energy field, eg- Species 8472 or Roga Danar.

Assuming the thing worked, I think it would have devasting effects, as it would destroy the original and create a clone. If, like me, one believes in a soul, how is that destroyed and then replicated, since it does not consist of physical matter? Similarly, I side with Mike, in that I don't think the things would work in the first place, but if they did, what "materialized" somewhere else would be "something" else.

Actually, I don't think they kill, considering people are coscious throughout the process. That, and there are a large enough population of 'life energy' feelers out there. You'd think they'd notice if transporters killed people.

[TheDarkling]

The transporter isnt a cloner at least not in the sense we would understand it since you cant make a new copy out of any old energy laying around - something survives the process intact - that could very well be your "soul" for want of a better term or it could just be you compacted down but the fact is the transporter doesnt kill and clone it changes form, moves and reverts to previous form.

[kojikun]

What happened with Palpatines clones? And when he transfered bodies, did he have to use his force powers or did it happen naturally?

If the force is what enabled Palpy to transfer, then I doubt Jedi could due to differences in strength. You'll get the Jedi, but you wont get the force ability.

[Darth Wong]

The transporter isnt a cloner at least not in the sense we would understand it since you cant make a new copy out of any old energy laying around - something survives the process intact - that could very well be your "soul" for want of a better term or it could just be you compacted down but the fact is the transporter doesnt kill and clone it changes form, moves and reverts to previous form.

In "Second Chances", we saw incontrovertible proof that it clones people: an actual walking, talking transporter clone of Riker. One of the two must be a clone; you cannot deny this.

As for the "continuity of consciousness" argument mentioned by somebody else, I have dealt with this before on my website. It is impossible to perceive a discontinuity in your own consciousness. Think about it. Therefore, their failure to perceive said continuity is not disproof.

[Alyeska]

The transporter isnt a cloner at least not in the sense we would understand it since you cant make a new copy out of any old energy laying around - something survives the process intact - that could very well be your "soul" for want of a better term or it could just be you compacted down but the fact is the transporter doesnt kill and clone it changes form, moves and reverts to previous form.

In "Second Chances", we saw incontrovertible proof that it clones people: an actual walking, talking transporter clone of Riker. One of the two must be a clone; you cannot deny this.

As for the "continuity of consciousness" argument mentioned by somebody else, I have dealt with this before on my website. It is impossible to perceive a discontinuity in your own consciousness. Think about it. Therefore, their failure to perceive said continuity is not disproof.

Except for the fact that Barclay was conscious when inside the pattern buffer and saw the organisms (trapped crew) who had been stuck for quite some time.

[The Dark]

What happened with Palpatines clones? And when he transfered bodies, did he have to use his force powers or did it happen naturally?

If the force is what enabled Palpy to transfer, then I doubt Jedi could due to differences in strength. You'll get the Jedi, but you wont get the force ability.

According to WEG, it was a Force Power called (something like) Transfer Essence. It allowed Palpy to possess anyone(!) and try to throw them out of their own body. Since clones are manipulated to be obedient, they would allow Palpy to throw them out, and he would then take control of the body. (Note: Some is from WEG, and some is logical conclusions from the combination of WEG and AOTC information).

[Darth Wong]

As for the "continuity of consciousness" argument mentioned by somebody else, I have dealt with this before on my website. It is impossible to perceive a discontinuity in your own consciousness. Think about it. Therefore, their failure to perceive said continuity is not disproof.

Except for the fact that Barclay was conscious when inside the pattern buffer and saw the organisms (trapped crew) who had been stuck for quite some time.

That only indicates consciousness through one part of the process. It does not preclude the existence of a discontinuity anywhere in the process. Did you give serious thought to the paragraph you were responding to? How do you explain the Riker clone?

[Alyeska]

As for the "continuity of consciousness" argument mentioned by somebody else, I have dealt with this before on my website. It is impossible to perceive a discontinuity in your own consciousness. Think about it. Therefore, their failure to perceive said continuity is not disproof.

Except for the fact that Barclay was conscious when inside the pattern buffer and saw the organisms (trapped crew) who had been stuck for quite some time.

That only indicates consciousness through one part of the process. It does not preclude the existence of a discontinuity anywhere in the process. Did you give serious thought to the paragraph you were responding to? How do you explain the Riker clone?

The fact that Barclay spotted the "orgaminism" and that he was active the whole time. There is nothing that indicates there was a point where he was not conscious. This is supported by the fact that people have talked and moved while be transported. Rather, the incident with Tom Riker is the incident that doesn't fit.

[pecker]

The transporter isnt a cloner at least not in the sense we would understand it since you cant make a new copy out of any old energy laying around - something survives the process intact - that could very well be your "soul" for want of a better term or it could just be you compacted down but the fact is the transporter doesnt kill and clone it changes form, moves and reverts to previous form.

In "Second Chances", we saw incontrovertible proof that it clones people: an actual walking, talking transporter clone of Riker. One of the two must be a clone; you cannot deny this.

As for the "continuity of consciousness" argument mentioned by somebody else, I have dealt with this before on my website. It is impossible to perceive a discontinuity in your own consciousness. Think about it. Therefore, their failure to perceive said continuity is not disproof.

Well, I guess the only way to test this is if in an episode someone counted outloud, and comapre what number they are on when they reappear to how long the transport took.

But I doubt we'll see that.

However, the Riker incident seems to bs a special case, because EVERYONE in ST says they take you apart and put you back together, with the SAME molecules. Many people say they don't like the idea of being launched through space like that. If they simply copy you, why go through the break-down process? Just send the info to the receiving end and shoot the original

We don't really know WHAT happened in the Riker incident, as it flies in the face of every other report of transporters.

[Darth Wong]

That only indicates consciousness through one part of the process. It does not preclude the existence of a discontinuity anywhere in the process. Did you give serious thought to the paragraph you were responding to? How do you explain the Riker clone?

The fact that Barclay spotted the "orgaminism" and that he was active the whole time.

So that stage is not the point of discontinuity? Again, I ask how you know there is no point of discontinuity anywhere in the process.

There is nothing that indicates there was a point where he was not conscious.

Do you believe that Montgomery Scott was conscious for 80 years? He didn't seem to remember any of it.

This is supported by the fact that people have talked and moved while be transported.

Your logic is flawed. Please think about this. Let's say there are 3 steps in the transporter process. Let's say step 2 involves a discontinuity of consciousness. You present evidence that consciousness is maintained during at least 1 of the 3 steps. How does this disprove that step 2 involves a discontinuity of consciousness?

Rather, the incident with Tom Riker is the incident that doesn't fit.

And the incident with Montgomery Scott. That's two incidents that don't fit with your theory, but do fit with mine. And your reasoning for selecting your theory over mine is ... ?

[pecker]

IIRC, Scott intentionally modified the Buffer to keep in him stasis. It's unknown whetehr the unconscoiusness was part of the modification or not.

Consciousness aside, the Riker incident doesn't disprove every other instance, unless every other person in ST has lied about how transporters work

[Darth Yoshi]

I don't think that Jedi would lose his Force abilities, since Luuke Skywalker, the clone made from Luke's hand, was obviously a Force adept to be able to fight Luke on equal terms. Callista's lack of Force powers comes from the fact that she was stored in a computer system since the Clone Wars before being transferred into a new body. Unless she could use the Force while in the computer, I never read Children of the Jedi. Besides, Callista's new body wasn't even hers genetically, and she could still use the Force, albeit out of rage, in Darksaber (ugh. KJA).

[Darth Wong]

IIRC, Scott intentionally modified the Buffer to keep in him stasis. It's unknown whetehr the unconscoiusness was part of the modification or not.

And how do you modify a device which does not normally induce a discontinuity of consciousness in order to make it do so harmlessly? I see no reason to exaggerate the changes he must have made to the device; there was evidence of adjustment, not wholesale re-engineering. There is obviously some stage in the process at which point the original person no longer exists as a coherent physical entity.

Consciousness aside, the Riker incident doesn't disprove every other instance, unless every other person in ST has lied about how transporters work

No one's saying it disproves every other instance. It only disproves a popular INTERPRETATION of other every instance. Do not confuse evidence with interpretations thereof.

[TheDarkling]

You have evidence in your database that it isnt a straight up cloning process - the magical exotic matter you mention proves it isnt a simple clone a guy, we then have you Scorpion quote that shows a atomic level scan isnt going on - these show it isnt a simply clone someone and destroy the original.

Again something more happens since this exotic matter is required for the process to work meaning that a transport changes the persons body into th weird matter moves it than reverts it back to the orignal form.

How this fits in with the Riker incident is tricky I would call technobabble atmosphere did cloning of the exotic matter itself enabling both Rikers to live (although the fact that the computer of Rikers ship didnt register reintigrating him on the surface seems odd).

[His Divine Shadow]

I thought the Riker incident was proof that it did not break you down, because if it did, then what is there to put you back together, for the original Riker it would have been the transporter unit, but what about the other one, shouldn't he just have arrived as a bunch of goo or other particulate matter?

[Setzer]

I thought the Riker incident was proof that it did not break you down, because if it did, then what is there to put you back together, for the original Riker it would have been the transporter unit, but what about the other one, shouldn't he just have arrived as a bunch of goo or other particulate matter?

It breaks you down, that doesn't mean it destroys your atoms. It reassembles you at a later point, after disintegrating you so you can be beamed easier.

[Setzer]

Who says they would even work? They tend to have trouble transporting any life form with any sort of unusual energy field, eg- Species 8472 or Roga Danar.

But they've transported telepaths before, haven't they? I recall one epidode of Voyager where they were able to store some telepaths onboard in a disintegrated state (but I can't remember the title for the life of me. could anyone help me out there?)

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

I thought transporters on ST don't kill and make a clone of you as the principles Quantum Teleportation states. I thought it worked on the principle of disassembly, transportation, and reassembly. Can somebody explain if there is any difference?

[Mike_6002]

Jedi just creates some sort of interfernece with his force powers, he going nowhere, and ST transporter are prue evil, I feel sorry for those who don't want to use, but they have no choice.