General Grevious and lightsaber dueling

[Stravo]

Now, I am spoiler free for ROTS but having purchased the figure and seen Clone Wars Vol. 1 in its enitirety I have to ask. Does the fact that Grevious can lightsaber duel with Jedi show that lightsaber dueling is not so much force skill as has been thought by many as it is sheer swordmanship?

What I mean by that is I am basing this assumption on the idea that Grevious is not a Force user, he is a droid (or very much almost all droid) and that his skill is based on his superhuman reaction time and physical ability granted to him by his droid body. He's killed several Jedi in lightsaber duels, collecting their sabers in the process.

At the end of Clone Wars Vol. 1 he has several Jedi Masters on the ropes and even has Ki Ai Mundi sweating as he tries not to shit a brick at his approach indicating that his skill level makes a Jedi Master nervous.

So taking into account Grevious' ability to overcome Jedi speed and reaction time through the use of his droid body's superhuman abilities how much of lightsaber dueling is based on raw Force talent and how much is actual swordsmanship? For example Obi Wan and Anakin at the final duel, GL tells us that Obi Wan wins through better skill and experience not Force power.

When all things are equal physically is it the better duelist that wins?
And please no spoilers about his actions in ROTS and final fate. I don't consider it a spoiler if you tell me "he is a force user Stravo" because that is a fact that won't ruin the movie for me. Essentially details about the character don't bug me, its his fate and what he does in the movie that would.

[Lord Revan]

In CW season 3 Grievous is training with Dooku and Dooku tells him that Girevous should fight only if he has fear and supprice on his side and use his droid strength and reflexes to control the duel so that Jedi can't concentrate enough to use the Force against him.

[darthnidankendo]

lightsaber skills could be learned by anyone and not just the jedi. Although the Jedi use the force in sinc with lightsaber, anyone could use one in a skillfull manner.

[Stofsk]

Now, I am spoiler free for ROTS but having purchased the figure and seen Clone Wars Vol. 1 in its enitirety I have to ask. Does the fact that Grevious can lightsaber duel with Jedi show that lightsaber dueling is not so much force skill as has been thought by many as it is sheer swordmanship?

Yes. Saber dueling has to be swordsmanship, since it's a sword. A peculiar, weightless sword, but one nonetheless. (EDIT: Foils are more or less weightless, and yet you still learn swordsmanship with fencing... sure, a real duel would be a problem, but you're still conditioning your body with trained reflexes) It just so happens that Jedi duels also have the added element of 'force attacks', but the principles of fencing ought to remain important to the training and use of the lightsaber. That's why they have all those 'saber forms. They teach different styles, different moves, different postures. If it can be taught and learned then it doesn't depend on an innate ability to channel the force and allow it to control your actions.

A sheer guess, but it's possible that Grievous has knowledge of all the lightsaber forms somehow impressed in his memory, and thus knows what parry protects against a certain cut. With his cyborg reflexes he can remain competitive with Jedi.

When all things are equal physically is it the better duelist that wins?

Irrespective of force powers? Yes. The better duelist always wins, if all things are equal. If they each have the same strength and dexterity and endurance, then the only thing distinguishing them is their conditioned reflexes - and in that case, what matters is not whether you're faster or stronger, but if you're more cunning than the other guy.

[El Moose Monstero]

In SotE, Vader practises with saber wielding droids to keep his combat skills and lightsaber technique up, if they weren't able to pose a threat, it seems unlikely that he'd bother duelling droids at all. Admittedly, the ones in SotE weren't a threat, but I think he says to crank them up next time or to make the next batch stronger or something - it's been a while though, and a certain scene involving saber wielding droids in a certain fanfic may be interfering.

The force doesnt act through the lightsaber, so if you can make a droid with fast enough reaction times, there doesn't seem to be any reason why it can't stand toe-to-toe with a jedi master and win.

Then look at Yoda and Dooku, in the end, they opt for a lightsaber contest, even though they could sit and toss force powers around all day and just bounce off each other, if they were evenly matched in force power and force power dictated lightsaber skill, then it should have been a draw, so having a lightsaber fight would have been pointless.

And again in AotC, where Obi wan says 'if you spent as much time practicing your sword play as you did your wit, you would rival master yoda'. Or words to that effect, anyway. Anakin's midiclorian count is higher than yoda's, presumably potential for force powers is higher, but his swordplay needs work.

I think it definately comes down to swordsmanship - you get a robot, program it with the vast knowledge of sword play across the galaxy, give it some adaptive reflexes and the fastest reactions times possible, and you could probably rattle through jedi fairly easily - witness Grevious, I suppose.

[Stravo]

lightsaber skills could be learned by anyone and not just the jedi. Although the Jedi use the force in sinc with lightsaber, anyone could use one in a skillfull manner.

That's sort of the rubbing point. Many sources have stated that only a Jedi can use a lightsaber to its full potential without injuring himself and that the Force plays as big a role in lightsaber dueling as swordmanship. I think that when push comes to shove it should be overall swordsmanship that is the deciding factor not whether the other guy is stronger in the Force.

[Stofsk]

lightsaber skills could be learned by anyone and not just the jedi. Although the Jedi use the force in sinc with lightsaber, anyone could use one in a skillfull manner.

That's sort of the rubbing point. Many sources have stated that only a Jedi can use a lightsaber to its full potential without injuring himself and that the Force plays as big a role in lightsaber dueling as swordmanship. I think that when push comes to shove it should be overall swordsmanship that is the deciding factor not whether the other guy is stronger in the Force.

This is repeated throughout the canon: Dooku trashes Obi-wan, Anakin, even Yoda - he's the better duelist, at that time, even if Anakin had a bigger midiclorian count or whatever. (You could say Obi-wan was having a bad day)

In ESB Luke duels Vader, but the latter is more experienced. It doesn't matter that Luke has more 'force potential' than Vader does; Vader is the better swordsman.

Maul kills Qui-gon. Better duelist.

[darthnidankendo]

lightsaber skills could be learned by anyone and not just the jedi. Although the Jedi use the force in sinc with lightsaber, anyone could use one in a skillfull manner.

That's sort of the rubbing point. Many sources have stated that only a Jedi can use a lightsaber to its full potential without injuring himself and that the Force plays as big a role in lightsaber dueling as swordmanship. I think that when push comes to shove it should be overall swordsmanship that is the deciding factor not whether the other guy is stronger in the Force.

True, but on the other hand a jedi using the force would be more attuned to the movements of hte enemi as well to his own. So in movie thory, it would be better to have a lightsaber and the force, as supposed to just having a lightsaber.

[Lord Revan]

While there's no reason why a non-jedi couldn't use a lightsaber and be good at it, skill is not the reason why Gen Grievous wins his duels (LoE Spoilers)Grievous as well as his IG-100 elite tend to use too simple technique

[VT-16]

I think that when push comes to shove it should be overall swordsmanship that is the deciding factor not whether the other guy is stronger in the Force.

That, and with regards to lightsabres, whether the user belongs to a species with quick enough reflexes to wield it without injury (if they´re not Force-sensitive).

That said, there is a GG origin comic drawn by one of the ROTS artists (in the "Visionaries" comic anthology), where we find out a bit more about the process of making the General good enough to go head-to-head with Jedi. He gets a blood-transfusion from the corpse of Sifo-Dyas (I guess the Sith lords were hoping the midis would co-operate under their influence) and has his mind altered to become more wrathful and obsessed with fighting. He´s a Sith biology-experiment, basically. It seems clear that this kind of modification process takes time and resources, which explains why you can´t just "copy" Force-skills en masse.

[Stravo]

I think that when push comes to shove it should be overall swordsmanship that is the deciding factor not whether the other guy is stronger in the Force.

That, and with regards to lightsabres, whether the user belongs to a species with quick enough reflexes to wield it without injury (if they´re not Force-sensitive).

And when you think about Luke for instance, he makes a quantum leap in dueling ability between ESB and ROTJ. That was supposed to be linked to his growth in the Force between the two movies but how can you get THAT much better at sword fighting in the span of 6 months to a year? He was handing Vader his ass in the early part of the duel and then easily fending him off before going for the coup de grace at the end.

[VT-16]

And when you think about Luke for instance, he makes a quantum leap in dueling ability between ESB and ROTJ.

Yes, I know, but what has that got to do with my post?

[Stravo]

And when you think about Luke for instance, he makes a quantum leap in dueling ability between ESB and ROTJ.

Yes, I know, but what has that got to do with my post?

It doesn't. You were qouting a relvant part of my post that made me think of what I wrote in regards ti Luke. I was just giving you credit for jogging that particular point, right?

[Cykeisme]

I think the reason why non-Jedi don't use lightsabers isn't because they can never be effective with it, or because they might maim themselves.. it's because a non-Jedi will almost always be more effective with a blaster, and have a far lower chance of injuring themselves (short of shooting oneself in the foot)... plus it requires much, much less training.

As for Grievous, Dooku made it clear that he should have surprise, fear and intimidation on his side to prevent a Jedi not only from using telekinetic attacks, but probably also so that they can't use precognition.
When the Jedi can't calm themselves and let the Force guide their actions, their abilities with a lightsaber are severely dampened.

[Cykeisme]

Odear!

Thx VT-16

[VT-16]

It doesn't. You were qouting a relvant part of my post that made me think of what I wrote in regards ti Luke. I was just giving you credit for jogging that particular point, right?

Oh, thanks. I think.

Mixed up 'quote' and 'edit' there, Cykeisme?

[Vympel]

General Grievous is not a droid. He is half-alien, half machine. In any event, his cybernetically enhanced abilities to overwhelm Jedi on their own turf have limits- see Clone Wars III in paticular- General Grievous is cowardly, not brave. He attacks when he has three things on his side (can't remember what they are, Dooku told him) and runs away when they're not going for him. This is borne out in RotS as well and Lucas' comments about Grievous character.

[Cykeisme]

I think they're "fear, surprise and intimidation." These things keep a Jedi off balance, and prevent a Jedi from calling on the Force. And what is a Jedi who calls not on the Force?

[Crazedwraith]

General Grievous is not a droid. He is half-alien, half machine. In any event, his cybernetically enhanced abilities to overwhelm Jedi on their own turf have limits- see Clone Wars III in paticular- General Grievous is cowardly, not brave. He attacks when he has three things on his side (can't remember what they are, Dooku told him) and runs away when they're not going for him. This is borne out in RotS as well and Lucas' comments about Grievous character.

Except in the very last chapter of the Clone Wars When he tries to do with out fear and surpirse and just does indimitation. Windu force crushes him. (Non fatally of course, he gets crunched slightly but runs away in his shuttle)

[Sriad]

HI2U SPOILER WARNINGS.

(If any friendly mod happens to read the above post, could they tiny-ize the text or put in similar warnings, since Stravo said in the OP he's spoiler free?)

[McC]

The thing everyone neglects is what else a lightsaber can be used for: deflecting/reflecting blaster bolts. This is what a non-Jedi would continually fail to do. Only Jedi have the precognitive reflexes necessary to achieve this feat. Anyone can duel with a lightsaber. Only Jedi can block blasters and thereby make a lightsaber an effective theater weapon rather than just a sport weapon. Super non-Jedi Swordsman with a lightsaber will be cut down in a matter of moments by Joe Average Blasterman. That's why only Jedi can use lightsabers to their full potential.

[Lancer]

HI2U SPOILER WARNINGS.

(If any friendly mod happens to read the above post, could they tiny-ize the text or put in similar warnings, since Stravo said in the OP he's spoiler free?)

Clone Wars, not Ep III.

[Dangermouse]

He was handing Vader his ass in the early part of the duel and then easily fending him off before going for the coup de grace at the end.

Agreed Stravo, although it seemed that toward the end of the duel of ROTJ (at least for me), it was partly strength as well. We see Luke striking blow after blow after blow with Vader struggling to parry the attacks, and then Luke delivering the final blow to sever the hand. It seemed to be a barrage of attacks rather than one finesse move. Does a higher mastery of the force perhaps lead to more strength / stamina, and thus being able to deliver more forceful blows?

Looking back at ESB, Vader really seems to use his size to his advantage. We see several shots in which Luke and Vader clash and then Vader pushes Luke around like a rag doll. For these duels, swordsplay / experience seems to be fairly important. The move in which Vader parry's Luke's attack, spins his blade around Luke's blade, and then severs his hand seems to be pure swordmanship.

[Dangermouse]

The thing everyone neglects is what else a lightsaber can be used for: deflecting/reflecting blaster bolts. This is what a non-Jedi would continually fail to do. Only Jedi have the precognitive reflexes necessary to achieve this feat. Anyone can duel with a lightsaber. Only Jedi can block blasters and thereby make a lightsaber an effective theater weapon rather than just a sport weapon. Super non-Jedi Swordsman with a lightsaber will be cut down in a matter of moments by Joe Average Blasterman. That's why only Jedi can use lightsabers to their full potential.

Agree completely.

The other fascinating aspect for me is the length of the typical lightsaber duel between Jedi. Considering that the lightsaber is such a lethal weapon, it is surprising that duels last as long as they do; I think it really speaks to the skill of the fighters. Most fights IIRC (except the glancing blow on Vader in ESB), the loser is either killed or incapicatated by one blow.

Back to the OP, do we have any evidence of Grievous taking a hit from a light saber [please PM to avoid spoiler]? I wonder if his success is also due to his cybernetic skeleton perhaps being more resistant to a glancing draw cut (like Luke's blow against Vader's suit) that would otherwise end the fight for your typical Jedi.

[Sriad]

HI2U SPOILER WARNINGS.

(If any friendly mod happens to read the above post, could they tiny-ize the text or put in similar warnings, since Stravo said in the OP he's spoiler free?)

Clone Wars, not Ep III.

Ah, my bad. I haven't seen the last season of Clone Wars, and "Mace Windu force crushing" sounded pretty terminal. Complaints withdrawn.