Adam Warlock making an ass out of himself

[Connor MacLeod]

I love how Warlock combined utter condescention for SD.net with the fact that Mike shouldn't analyze B5 cuz he doesnt know what he's talking about. Especially the "stick ot what he knows." Which I find funny, because I doubt Warlock knows SW all that well yet he's made some rather absurd claims in THAT universe (a bit hypocritical of him to tell Mike to stay out of B5 when he won't even follow his own damn advice - but considerng all the other BS he pulls, whats hypocrisy?)

[Connor MacLeod]

I'd like to see those.

Here. This is what I had:

You can also contrast it with the link to the debate, which is still ironically up (for now)



http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... genumber=4


----------

Jan 7th 2002 5:41pm
SUGGESTION::

instead of scaling up the more physical aspects of the weapon.. like the diameter of cannon turrets, and beam diameter from a smaller diameter..

you have to, in fact "must" start more on first principles.. and actually scale the actual physics, or approximate physics, by which the beam is produced..

for example the relation between particle density and diameter is not linear.. and actual energy per particle may have to be increased for a larger beam to reduce dispersion for example.

also Masc stated the omegas beams to be "phased" helium plasma...

***
Jan 7th 2002 5:52pm

note..

i did do calcs on minbari neutron beam.. through first principles.. and hardly no assumptions..
and used also visual data of green intensity that makes neutron beam visible.

this i attributed to particle direction not being entirely straight.. though the minbari may have placed a gravimetric component in the beam to keep most neutrons from straying and attract back ones that have... thus the particles have velocity components perpendicular to the general direction of motion which causes them to interact with other neutrons and in doing so release photons in the green visible frequency of the spectrum.

i lost the work thanks to my computer blowing up..
but the beam output ranges between 8gt-15gt.. getting rid of other assumptions such as that only photons in the green frequency being produced/emitted only served to increase this to around 20gt-30gt.

as for conservation of momemtum (or why the minbari ship doesnt spin start spinning round after firing)..well that could be accounted for by use of inertial dampening or gravitic systems.

*****
Jan 8th 2002 5:33pm

quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Adam Warlock
note..

i did do calcs on minbari neutron beam.. through first principles.. and hardly no assumptions..
and used also visual data of green intensity that makes neutron beam visible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Although you said you don't have them. So how am I exactly supposed to believe this?



because you just have to take my word for it.. and i did do them before after i did the omega beam calcs before you came aboard here on spacebattles.. outofstep, deathbringer and dark lord will testify to it.



quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this i attributed to particle direction not being entirely straight.. though the minbari may have placed a gravimetric component in the beam to keep most neutrons from straying and attract back ones that have... thus the particles have velocity components perpendicular to the general direction of motion which causes them to interact with other neutrons and in doing so release photons in the green visible frequency of the spectrum.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And you based your conclusion about this particular interpretation on what? This sounds an awful lot like those so called "beam calcs" you did for EA beams, which apparently required a rather large quantity of mass to deliver the stated damage you indicated.



I SAID from FIRST PRINCIPLES..

meaning.. deriving the calcs from what were are given on the nature of the beam.. I.E. NEUTRON BEAM = BEAM OF NEUTRONS.. or dont you understand that...
and the above is MY ACCOUNTING of WHY WE SEE THE BEAM AS GREEN.. I.E. PHOTONS WITH FREQUENCY IN THE GREEN REGION ARE RELEASED ALONG THE LENGTH OF THE BEAM..and more intense than the red of the omega beams.

as for the mass of the omega beams.. you forgot that i did take mass into account through use of relativistic equations... special relativity accounts for time dilation, length contraction, and mass increase of objects moving near light speed...

I dont know why you criticise that when you dont criticize a certain someones heavy turbo laser calcs..106gt who never account for momentum or recoil.. or the actual amount of (tibanna) gas required to get such huge energy in the first place...and the fact that heavy turbo lasers are said to have (by star wars universe technical manual) their own indpendent power supply..

seems like double standardising

quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i lost the work thanks to my computer blowing up..
but the beam output ranges between 8gt-15gt.. getting rid of other assumptions such as that only photons in the green frequency being produced/emitted only served to increase this to around 20gt-30gt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



In other words,no math. So why am I to believe this is actually valid in any way, much less a "better" method than what I did? Perhaps you would be so kind as to reproduce your work and actually post it, so we might actually see how this conclusion is arrived at.



why dont you read up on standard fission reactions to release neutrons.. i hardly see any math from you..and your criticising my maths is frickin ridiculous given that you probably dont understand my volume calculations for the centripetal force of the omegas rotating section.


quote:

So how is this exactly superior/better to my method? IT sounds overly complex and rather suspicious to me. IS it not better to measure by known effects?



because with your method what youre doing is SIMPLY assuming how properties of the actual weapon are related/proportional to the actual properties of the beam, and how the beam is produced...and this is ONE BIG ASSUMPTION, or already a number of assumptions depending on on how many properties youre going to simply compare this way.

its far better to start from first principles, find a close fit nature of the beam, find energies.. and actually find out how beam particle density would be related to volume increase, and hence find required power to produce similar density at the increased volume.

quote:

My only assumptions involve that size of a weapon and its power are proportionally related (not unreasonable - particle beams will be improved by longer barrels or larger barrels. Which is quite simple.



and what kind of proportionality relationship are you talking about.. is one inversely proportional to the other, or proportionally square to the other, inversely proportional to the square of the other, to the cube..what about constants of proportionality.. how did you find out the proportionality relationship in the first place without resorting to near first principal derivations.

what about the beam itself?

have you taken into account the types of material used to be used as sources of neutron, hence the binding energies involved.. did you take into account what is best used for fuel whether its beryllium, which with certain reactions with carbon nuclei yields Q values of 5.702MeV..or other heavier elements that are richer in neutrons.. are they produced through photo disentegration or charged particle bombardemt via a van de graff type apparatus?..are the neutrons ejected right after production or are stored via moderator capture/absorption...and what about the neutron velocities within the beam itself, and how are they related
to the energies involved in neutron production process.

quote:

Perhaps you might do your calcs to actually demonstrate this method, if it is more valid than what I apparently did.



deathbringer, provostq, and me, other fivers are planning of building a database of calcs and derivations to be put up on a website...which would also include my notes on gamma ray penetration, stopping power required for particle based radiation (ie. beta and alpha)...as well as revised omega beam calcs, and minbari neutron weapons..

*****

Jan 8th 2002 6:23pm

conner:

consider this my analogy to your method..

you scale the starfury to an omega, and find you would have to increase the volume of the original starfury by 100,000 times..

does this mean that the power required for scaled up version of the starfury, or the original sized omega, has to be 100,000 times of the orginal starfury..

nooo..

there are still a lot of factors to be involved.

------------

[white_rabbit]

We don't know what a few is by triad standard

several large vessels, a few of moderate size, and quite many small ships

The first quote is adarxs response when it was pointed out to him that an "omnipitant" Tri couldnt even manage to maintain a fleet it created to fight some Vorlons..

The second is from the AOG b5 game IIRc and details the Vorlon fleet the Tri had to face

Right.... This proves what? That they cannot go on for ever. We do know that rapidly for them is measured in several millenia. So me can assume quickly is about that. So after several millenia of constant control over a very large number of ships it got tired. BFD

And apparently, this combat lasted a couple of millenia

[Connor MacLeod]

The "neutron beams causing fission in ISD hulls" example:

It begins on page 6:

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... genumber=6

Mar 19th 2002 12:40pm
"
also..what would happen if beams mainly composed of neutrons, hit neutron(ium) based armour..elementary nuclear physics... fission...
those isd deflectors better be able to cope well, given that moderately fast moving rocks is can destroy isd bridge towers, otherwise isd armour itself will be a major contributor to its own destruction from neutron particle beams.


----

And page 7:


http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... genumber=7


Mar 19th 2002 8:41pm

anyway from a star wars encyclopedia with links to the sources.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neutronium
an heavy metallic element used in the formation of dura-armor and durasteel. (SWSB, RD, CTD)

Durasteel
a building material created from lommite, meleenium, neutronium, and zersium. (SWN, SWSB, CTD)

Duralloy
a metal that is used to plate starship hulls. (SWSB)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



note for the definition of neutronium, being a main component for dura-armour dura steel, and there dura-alloy.

also neutronium being classed as a "heavy element".. guess what that means.. or better yet.. what range of (real-life) elements fit in the category of heavy element...
thats right.. elements with mass numbers greater than a 100... that includes ol pals like uranium, and plutonium.

as to what this consequently means in the context of our discussion click here.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.ed.../nucbin.html#c2

the heavier the element the greater chance of fission through introduction of neutrons via neutron beams...

----

This is only part of what I have though

[Connor MacLeod]

We don't know what a few is by triad standard

several large vessels, a few of moderate size, and quite many small ships

The first quote is adarxs response when it was pointed out to him that an "omnipitant" Tri couldnt even manage to maintain a fleet it created to fight some Vorlons..

The second is from the AOG b5 game IIRc and details the Vorlon fleet the Tri had to face

Right.... This proves what? That they cannot go on for ever. We do know that rapidly for them is measured in several millenia. So me can assume quickly is about that. So after several millenia of constant control over a very large number of ships it got tired. BFD

And apparently, this combat lasted a couple of millenia

I know, but this thread isnt about Adarx (not that he doesnt deserve one of his own.)

[white_rabbit]

We don't know what a few is by triad standard

several large vessels, a few of moderate size, and quite many small ships

The first quote is adarxs response when it was pointed out to him that an "omnipitant" Tri couldnt even manage to maintain a fleet it created to fight some Vorlons..

The second is from the AOG b5 game IIRc and details the Vorlon fleet the Tri had to face

Right.... This proves what? That they cannot go on for ever. We do know that rapidly for them is measured in several millenia. So me can assume quickly is about that. So after several millenia of constant control over a very large number of ships it got tired. BFD

And apparently, this combat lasted a couple of millenia

I know, but this thread isnt about Adarx (not that he doesnt deserve one of his own.)

My apologies...

[Master of Ossus]

I believe that my favorite rabid-Fiver was one who was telling me that the Shadows would easily defeat the Galactic Empire through their patience. He claimed that, once war began, the Shadows would infect the entire Empire in the space of weeks with a plague that would kill them all. He went on to tell me that he could assume all sentient life could be killed by such a plague over any distances and infected nearly instantaneously through aerosol transmission of a single nanite, and that starships' range, firepower, armor, shields, speed, numbers, and targetting capabilities are all irrelevent during a conflict.

That being said, Adam Warlock seems pretty stupid. Though I have never had any direct correspondence with him (thank God), it appears that he is enormously incompetent, and a very dishonest debater. His claims should be treated with the utmost suspicion, if not outright derision, and his ludicrous conclusions treated with contempt.

[Durandal]

The claim that neutron beams would ignite fission in ISD hulls is so repusively idiotic that I don't even know where to begin to dismember it.

[Ender]

Wait, what? How the hell would a neutron cannon set off an ISDs armor? Who has claimed this, where can I find a copy, and whatever else so I can revel in hte stupidity of others.

[Ender]

NM, see it on the other page. My bad

[Crown]

Okay I am far from an expert on Nuclear Fission, so could someone please explain to me what is wrong with his claim. To make it easier I should basically state my understanding of fission (please be gentle, I just want to learn something here );

Neutrons moving very fast.

Neutrons incounter a heavy atom Nucleas.

Neutrons hits the heavy nucleus.

Atom nucleus splits, releasing 3(?) Neutrons and energy.

Repeat as above.

I assume why the assumption is wrong, is becuase SW armour is just neutrons and not an atom nucleus which has both neutrons and protons, and thus isn't really a 'atom' but rather neutrons just packed really tightly together? Please be gentle, I just wish to get educated here.

[Darth Wong]

Neutron capture only causes fission in nuclei that are unstable to begin with. That's why depleted uranium is useless for nuclear bombs; the most unstable radioisotope has been refined out of it.

In other words, Warlock is so mind-bogglingly stupid that he assumes any and all heavy metals are weapons-grade fissionable materials with highly unstable nuclei, so any object made of heavy metals will spontaneously fission when hit with a neutron beam (no wonder he tries to dismiss everything I say without explanation; his knowledge is obviously a miniscule fraction of what he claims it to be).

Mind you, that is but a fraction of the immensely cretinous stupidity in Warlock's argument. Neutron radiation has a powerful heating effect, since neutrons are much more likely to miss an atom or scatter off it (thus transferring energy) than to be captured by its nucleus. Therefore, a sufficiently intense neutron beam would simpy blow a hole through a starship's hull. To describe nuclear fission as the primary damage mechanism is a bit like saying that a bullet through the head will kill you through lead poisoning.

But of course, recognizing the primary damage mechanism would inevitably lead to the question of power levels, and Warlock wants to avoid that at all costs, hence his inane attempt to bastardize nuclear physics into a quasi-magical damage mechanism in which correlation between weapon power and damage is unnecessary.

[Crown]

So the key pharse in me little thesis on my understanding of Nuclear Fission should have been;

Neutrons encounter a heavy unstable atom nucleus.

Thank you Mike!

PS. Jedi Master, perhaps a change in avator is necessary....

[Ender]

I was going through some old threads and I love this:

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... genumber=4


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice thought. Do we know if the jump point "projectors" work through shielding?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



openning a rift through space...and thus warping space to start with, that increases in depth and diameter to open a portal through hyperspace..

thats whats observed right...

now do a mikey.wongy and make deductions from the observed effect, and determine the kind of energy required to cause a similar effect..

..and then youll find that the closest thing we have that can cause a similar effect to the initial stages of creating a worm hole is a "neutron star"..........

but cmon.. why not just bypass shields and plonk coordinates within the SSDs or death star itself..

[Vertigo1]

I wonder if Adam Warlock and outofstep are of any relation to Capt. Austin (before I took control of his SB account). That would definitely prove that stupidity is a genetic trait. Only difference is that Capt. Austin "argued" for Trek instead of B5. (For those of you that don't know who Capt. Austin is, imagine a trekkie 10x dumber than Darkstar, and 100x as stubborn.) Everyone (even the local rabid trekkies) enjoyed ripping his "arguements" apart with great ease.

[Vertigo1]

Its people like Adam Warlock and outofstep that make the REAL fivers look bad. Folks like Phalanx are the real fivers. He has my respect because he actually DEBATES, yet will actually LISTEN. (This is why I get along so well with Connor! )

Since when are you a Fiver?

Since before you, or most of the members here, have ever heard of Spacebattles. (I'm one of those that likes GOOD scifi, ie: Trek thats pre: VGR, SW, B5, and Farscape.)

[Ender]

I was going through some old threads and I love this:

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... genumber=4


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice thought. Do we know if the jump point "projectors" work through shielding?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



openning a rift through space...and thus warping space to start with, that increases in depth and diameter to open a portal through hyperspace..

thats whats observed right...

now do a mikey.wongy and make deductions from the observed effect, and determine the kind of energy required to cause a similar effect..

..and then youll find that the closest thing we have that can cause a similar effect to the initial stages of creating a worm hole is a "neutron star"..........

but cmon.. why not just bypass shields and plonk coordinates within the SSDs or death star itself..

Ugh, hit post too soon. My point was that his response totally ignored teh question.

[Connor MacLeod]

I was going through some old threads and I love this:

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... genumber=4


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nice thought. Do we know if the jump point "projectors" work through shielding?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



openning a rift through space...and thus warping space to start with, that increases in depth and diameter to open a portal through hyperspace..

thats whats observed right...

now do a mikey.wongy and make deductions from the observed effect, and determine the kind of energy required to cause a similar effect..

..and then youll find that the closest thing we have that can cause a similar effect to the initial stages of creating a worm hole is a "neutron star"..........

but cmon.. why not just bypass shields and plonk coordinates within the SSDs or death star itself..

Ugh, hit post too soon. My point was that his response totally ignored teh question.

You think thats bad? You should see some of the claims regarding the Shadow PK

[Connor MacLeod]

I wonder if Adam Warlock and outofstep are of any relation to Capt. Austin (before I took control of his SB account). That would definitely prove that stupidity is a genetic trait. Only difference is that Capt. Austin "argued" for Trek instead of B5. (For those of you that don't know who Capt. Austin is, imagine a trekkie 10x dumber than Darkstar, and 100x as stubborn.) Everyone (even the local rabid trekkies) enjoyed ripping his "arguements" apart with great ease.

Ah, but remember that Warlock is considered one of the Fiver's "intellectual" members.

[Connor MacLeod]

Neutron capture only causes fission in nuclei that are unstable to begin with. That's why depleted uranium is useless for nuclear bombs; the most unstable radioisotope has been refined out of it.

In other words, Warlock is so mind-bogglingly stupid that he assumes any and all heavy metals are weapons-grade fissionable materials with highly unstable nuclei, so any object made of heavy metals will spontaneously fission when hit with a neutron beam (no wonder he tries to dismiss everything I say without explanation; his knowledge is obviously a miniscule fraction of what he claims it to be).

Mind you, that is but a fraction of the immensely cretinous stupidity in Warlock's argument. Neutron radiation has a powerful heating effect, since neutrons are much more likely to miss an atom or scatter off it (thus transferring energy) than to be captured by its nucleus. Therefore, a sufficiently intense neutron beam would simpy blow a hole through a starship's hull. To describe nuclear fission as the primary damage mechanism is a bit like saying that a bullet through the head will kill you through lead poisoning.

But of course, recognizing the primary damage mechanism would inevitably lead to the question of power levels, and Warlock wants to avoid that at all costs, hence his inane attempt to bastardize nuclear physics into a quasi-magical damage mechanism in which correlation between weapon power and damage is unnecessary.

Give it up Mike. You obviously dont know anything about B5 (the Way Adam Warlock does) so you shouldn't be analyzing something you don't understand - and just stick to STar Wars.

[Durandal]

Okay I am far from an expert on Nuclear Fission, so could someone please explain to me what is wrong with his claim. To make it easier I should basically state my understanding of fission (please be gentle, I just want to learn something here );

Neutrons moving very fast.

Neutrons incounter a heavy atom Nucleas.

Neutrons hits the heavy nucleus.

Atom nucleus splits, releasing 3(?) Neutrons and energy.

Repeat as above.

I assume why the assumption is wrong, is becuase SW armour is just neutrons and not an atom nucleus which has both neutrons and protons, and thus isn't really a 'atom' but rather neutrons just packed really tightly together? Please be gentle, I just wish to get educated here.

Supplementing what Mike said, nuclear fission requires an extreme amount of control. Virtually all of an atom is empty space, so neutrons are much more likely to simply fly by the nucleus than to actually hit it. Furthermore, neutronium is only unstable outside of the gravitational confinement it exists in. There are so many neutrons in such a small space already that cramming another one in there won't make a big difference.

[[BL]Phalanx]

Its people like Adam Warlock and outofstep that make the REAL fivers look bad. Folks like Phalanx are the real fivers. He has my respect because he actually DEBATES, yet will actually LISTEN. (This is why I get along so well with Connor! )

Pffffft. Nu-uh, I'm just as rabid and stupid as they are. Don't give me your respect, I don't deserve it or want it.

Adam and outofstep may or may not be right on the issues, but quit clowning on them. They're still my fellow Fivers and I gotta back 'em up, even when they mess up, because no one's perfect. If I don't have their back when they make a mistake, how can I expect anyone else to back me up when I make one? At the end of the day, Adam and outofstep could be wrong, and they might not be as smart, but they're decent people who'd probably buy you a beer if you met.

[SirNitram]

Its people like Adam Warlock and outofstep that make the REAL fivers look bad. Folks like Phalanx are the real fivers. He has my respect because he actually DEBATES, yet will actually LISTEN. (This is why I get along so well with Connor! )

Pffffft. Nu-uh, I'm just as rabid and stupid as they are. Don't give me your respect, I don't deserve it or want it.

Adam and outofstep may or may not be right on the issues, but quit clowning on them. They're still my fellow Fivers and I gotta back 'em up, even when they mess up, because no one's perfect. If I don't have their back when they make a mistake, how can I expect anyone else to back me up when I make one? At the end of the day, Adam and outofstep could be wrong, and they might not be as smart, but they're decent people who'd probably buy you a beer if you met.

While this is a possibility, it is very much true they have said horrifically stupid things. If you support these stupid things, you too will be mocked. Sorry, didn't you read the sign at the top of the page?

[Steve]

Its people like Adam Warlock and outofstep that make the REAL fivers look bad. Folks like Phalanx are the real fivers. He has my respect because he actually DEBATES, yet will actually LISTEN. (This is why I get along so well with Connor! )

Pffffft. Nu-uh, I'm just as rabid and stupid as they are. Don't give me your respect, I don't deserve it or want it.

Adam and outofstep may or may not be right on the issues, but quit clowning on them. They're still my fellow Fivers and I gotta back 'em up, even when they mess up, because no one's perfect. If I don't have their back when they make a mistake, how can I expect anyone else to back me up when I make one? At the end of the day, Adam and outofstep could be wrong, and they might not be as smart, but they're decent people who'd probably buy you a beer if you met.

While this is a possibility, it is very much true they have said horrifically stupid things. If you support these stupid things, you too will be mocked. Sorry, didn't you read the sign at the top of the page?

I wonder, which is worse? A nice and stupid person, or a mean and smart person?

[[BL]Phalanx]

While this is a possibility, it is very much true they have said horrifically stupid things. If you support these stupid things, you too will be mocked. Sorry, didn't you read the sign at the top of the page?

So? We've all said or done stupid things before, but I doubt any of us would appreciate being clowned on for it. Some good-natured ribbing would be fine, but there's no need for contempt. You wanna change someone's mind? Be civil with 'em and teach 'em. You don't see good teachers going around belittling students that get the wrong answer.

Where'd I say I supported their views on Babylon 5?

You think all Fivers follow the "party line", that we're some kind of hive mind, no reasonable people among us to find, we've all left sanity far far behind?

I guess you do, don't you?

Well here I am... bring your mockery. Laugh it up, you all should be thanking me, I'm gonna provide you with someone new, to make fun of, to ridicule.