Affirmative Action

[AdmiralKanos]

My opinion on this is that there should be no laws regarding racial prejudice. I think people should have the right to be racist. If someone doesn't want to hire me because I'm chinese, fine, I don't want to work for them. I'd rather know where I stand with someone rather than have someone pretend to be civil toward me all the while having hate boiling beneath the surface.

That's easy for you to say because Chinese people actually have little difficulty getting jobs. The racial stereotype of the Chinese guy is "smart, geeky, hard-working, honest". Gee, what a horrible stereotype to be laden with when looking for a job, eh?

Asian students actually tend to be the most negatively impacted by racial quotas in university enrollment. One California university (I think it might have been UCLA, but my memory is not razor-sharp) got rid of racial quotas in response to a lot of lobbying and criticism, only to discover that the number of whites being accepted into the school went down because of the sudden influx of Asians with high marks.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

As a Black Man, I'm not entirely agianst it but I'm not entirely for it. I do think it should still be around but it needs to be retooled severely. IIRC, the whole premise of AA wasn't based on a quota system. (I hate the concept) Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

In general Whites really don't have much to get upset about because there is little that AA does statistically. The two minority groups that are said to benefit from it really don't.

I'll elaborate later, I'm too damn tired.

[Nick Lancaster]

The internship program at my college wouldn't refer you if you didn't have a 4.0 GPA.

So I picked up the phone and made some calls. I prepared a resume and went knocking on the door. The HR person told me that internship candidates needed to be referred by a school or other agency; she then suggested I go to CAA (Chinese for Affirmative Action). I did, filled out a form, and they picked the phone up, called the HR person, and referred me.

As it turned out, I wound up working side-by-side with the student who'd been recommended by the college the previous semester. I worked hard and took it upon myself to learn things on my own time (by reading manuals that were accessible to anyone, and by asking questions).

19 years later, I'm still at the station where I started.

Last time I saw him, the 4.0 student was driving a taxicab.

[Predator]

I dont buy the argument that because x minority typically lives in a poorer neighbourhood with poorer education, individuals of minority x should be preferentially treated, for a number of reasons. I'll give you a couple of examples, relating to New Zealand.

In New Zealand, Maori are able to get easier access to medical school - their grades do not need to be as high. If capacity for training doctors were limitless, this would be marginally less harmful as it would mean that equally or better qualified individuals form other races wouldnt be denied - capacity is not limitless, however. More concerning though is the thought that we may be producing doctors who arent up to scratch because we want the ethnicity of doctors to match population shares. Whether the fear is valid or not, I've met plenty of white New Zealanders who have suspicion of Maori doctors, fearing that they're below par due to affirmative action.

Secondly, 200,000 Maori are classed as "low income". 1.2 million non-maori NZers are classed as "low income". If this is about poverty disadvantaging people, then we shouldnt be focused on race at all - people of all races, in some proportion, suffer from poverty. The answer would be affirmative action in favour of *people* from low income backgrounds, not Maori, Blacks, or whathaveyou. After all, there are rich Maori and rich Blacks who go to prestigious schools and so on.

[Castor Troy]

The internship program at my college wouldn't refer you if you didn't have a 4.0 GPA.

So I picked up the phone and made some calls. I prepared a resume and went knocking on the door. The HR person told me that internship candidates needed to be referred by a school or other agency; she then suggested I go to CAA (Chinese for Affirmative Action). I did, filled out a form, and they picked the phone up, called the HR person, and referred me.

As it turned out, I wound up working side-by-side with the student who'd been recommended by the college the previous semester. I worked hard and took it upon myself to learn things on my own time (by reading manuals that were accessible to anyone, and by asking questions).

19 years later, I'm still at the station where I started.

Last time I saw him, the 4.0 student was driving a taxicab.

And how do you feel about that?

[Ypoknons]

The internship program at my college wouldn't refer you if you didn't have a 4.0 GPA.

Which college was this?

[The Guid]

Does not the whole process throw the people recieving it into a lower self confidence?

Now to take a rather less pressing example I have recently got into University to do Drama very easily in many places. I am male. In the UK this is a female dominated course by a long way therefore it is not impossible to thinkthat they will accept lower quality males so that there is a more even balance between the two genders (9 to 1 in some places *does a small dance in the corner*)

However this is something I do not like. It makes me doubtful of my own ability and my deserving to be in these places. I would imagine that others may experience similar doubt if the only reason is, or could be, their gender, religion or colour of skin.

I believe that the only way we are going to experience true equality is if minorities are made to stand on their own to feet as it were and do battle fairly. To begin with the market may become white male dominated but I think very soon the fact that talent is not spread in this one group will become evident. Or am I just trusting human nature to much?

[mr friendly guy]

I dont buy the argument that because x minority typically lives in a poorer neighbourhood with poorer education, individuals of minority x should be preferentially treated, for a number of reasons. I'll give you a couple of examples, relating to New Zealand.

In New Zealand, Maori are able to get easier access to medical school - their grades do not need to be as high. If capacity for training doctors were limitless, this would be marginally less harmful as it would mean that equally or better qualified individuals form other races wouldnt be denied - capacity is not limitless, however. More concerning though is the thought that we may be producing doctors who arent up to scratch because we want the ethnicity of doctors to match population shares. Whether the fear is valid or not, I've met plenty of white New Zealanders who have suspicion of Maori doctors, fearing that they're below par due to affirmative action.

.

Does affirmative action also help them pass medical school, or just get into medical school? AFAIK there is supposed to be some positions reserved in Australia for our Indigenous population. Although I certainly know of no pressure to pass based on ethnicity them if they didn't make the grade.

[Darth Wong]

I believe that the only way we are going to experience true equality is if minorities are made to stand on their own to feet as it were and do battle fairly. To begin with the market may become white male dominated but I think very soon the fact that talent is not spread in this one group will become evident. Or am I just trusting human nature to much?

There are no easy answers when it comes to affirmative action. Anyone who does give you a blanket answer is oversimplifying.

[Alyeska]

I hate it with an all consuming passion. There is no reason why a less qualified black person should be able to get a job or an education over a more qualified white person based upon the color of their skin. Personally I dont think race should be a question that is ever asked on college applications job applications or anything else, it should be left off the damn form.

That is not affirmative action. Affirmative action allows for the most highly qualified individual to be hired. It only comes into play when you have people of equal quality and one is a minority.

[Master of Ossus]

That is not affirmative action. Affirmative action allows for the most highly qualified individual to be hired. It only comes into play when you have people of equal quality and one is a minority.

There are many forms of affirmative action programs in both businesses and schools. While some of them are set up as tie-breakers, most actually allow for less-qualified applicants to emerge ahead of their more-qualified peers.

[Alyeska]

That is not affirmative action. Affirmative action allows for the most highly qualified individual to be hired. It only comes into play when you have people of equal quality and one is a minority.

There are many forms of affirmative action programs in both businesses and schools. While some of them are set up as tie-breakers, most actually allow for less-qualified applicants to emerge ahead of their more-qualified peers.

The AA federal law says that is illegal. Your NOT supposed to hire the underqualified individual.

[irishmick79]

I think the problem is that AA is regarded as being an issue on its own, when in reality it's a smll part of the larger issue of racism. The ideological effort to end racism is what spawned the development of AA policy, and to really take a good look and understand AA you have to look at AA in the broader context of racism in general.

AA only addresses a limited set of economic issues, and doesn't really confront the broader economic issues in regards to the disparity of wealth between white and black. AA doesn't really confront the social problems in education, and doesn't really address the problems in the public school system. AA also doesn't confront the big issue of crime and punishment, and fairness in the judiciary system at all.

While it can't be denied that AA was developed with good intentions, to end the stain of racism, it really reflects larger problems in society as a whole. AA is an extremely limited and constricted approach to a major issue in the United States (and elsewhere), and AA's limitations reflect the difficulty in getting the majority of the country to talk about issues of race in a constructive manner. A lot of people simply don't recognize that there are big differences in the way black people in the united states get treated and the way white people get treated. Because a lot people choose not to recognize that racism is still a major issue that hasn't been resolved, it's really hard to develop a good approach that insures fairness and equality. That's the big issue with AA, and why it's an imperfect solution to a much broader problem.

[Master of Ossus]

The AA federal law says that is illegal. Your NOT supposed to hire the underqualified individual.

Right, but you CAN hire LESS qualified individuals with affirmative action.

[Darth Wong]

The AA federal law says that is illegal. Your NOT supposed to hire the underqualified individual.

Right, but you CAN hire LESS qualified individuals with affirmative action.

You CAN hire LESS qualified individuals for ANY job. If someone is overqualified for the job, that is not necessarily a bonus in the selection process anyway.

[Master of Ossus]

You CAN hire LESS qualified individuals for ANY job. If someone is overqualified for the job, that is not necessarily a bonus in the selection process anyway.

People worry about hiring "overqualified" applicants only because of the danger that they'll run out and get another job quickly. There's no reason, though, to hire someone who's going to be worse for your company than the next guy, and there's no reason why any affirmative action program should require or even request such a thing.