Adama wrote:
Tie fighters look slow and cumbersome, and please dont spout some technobable from some book my way because im only commenting on what I have seen from movie clips.
I am willing to concede the point that under certain circumstances a tie would be superior though. But up close and personal I still think the viper has it.
Two words moron: PROVE IT.
Besides it would never get up close and personal becuase the TIE can leave the Viper spitting its proverbial dust any time it choses.
SW fighters ahev been know to engage at kilometer ranges the Vipers barley a few meters.
Ties are not slow.
Adama, please don't be this way. The Viper is inferior. Accept it.
Ra buddy, I accept that ties are faster, my earlier statement was rather inaccurate in that I was talking about maneuverability and not top speed. I apologise if that was a bit misleading
Come now, there is no need for name calling buddy.
Proof? Go watch Star wars: A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. There are lots of tie fighter scenes that you can see. There is your proof.
Adama wrote:Vietnam war. US fighters VS soviet fighters. US fighters had greater acceleration and top speeds, but soviet fighters had greater maneuverability. Don't tell me that the US pilots had a field day out there. They knew that up close and personal the migs were a real threat. Having said that, the US pilots won most battles, but thats mostly down to superior firepower, and of course training.
Tie fighters look slow and cumbersome, and please dont spout some technobable from some book my way because im only commenting on what I have seen from movie clips.
I am willing to concede the point that under certain circumstances a tie would be superior though. But up close and personal I still think the viper has it.
Can you say "rules of engagement" ?
Look, at least MiG's and F-4's and F-8's are from the same approximate tech base. Vipers and TIE's aint
Polite version: um, not a hope
Less polite: not a fucking chance, the viper driver is a cloud of incandescant gas before he knows what the fuck just happened to him...
"Of course, what would really happen is that in Game 7, with the Red Sox winning 20-0 in the 9th inning, with two outs and two strikes on the last Cubs batter, a previously unseen meteor would strike the earth, instantly and forever wiping out all life on the planet, and forever denying the Red Sox a World Series victory..."
Adama wrote:Ra buddy, I accept that ties are faster, my earlier statement was rather inaccurate in that I was talking about maneuverability and not top speed. I apologise if that was a bit misleading
I see the engagement going like this. The TIE uses its massively superior acceleration to make endless zipping passes around the Viper. The Viper's supposed superior sideways manueverability may allow it to evade a couple of times, but unless it gets phenomenally lucky and hits the TIE while it's streaking past its screwed.
PS if you are trying to argue a point specific examples are good instead of just staying "watch the movie". This place tends to be very unfriendly to people who debate like that.
Come now, there is no need for name calling buddy.
Thats not name calling, it was merely a suitable adjective. Expect a lot more around here if you keep it up.
Proof? Go watch Star wars: A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. There are lots of tie fighter scenes that you can see. There is your proof.
Yes, and I see fast manoeuvrable craft. What do you see?
Go look at the movies. When the tie fighters and X-wings are fighting around a SSD they dont seem to pass the ship in a micro second like you seem to be suggesting. If the ties and X-wings were traveling at these phenomenal speeds you are implying then the ties/X-wings would pass the SSD in no time at all, when in fact we can see it takes several seconds for the ties/X-wings to clear the hull of the SSD. Therefore they don't seem to be quite that fast. But probably faster than a viper, I can admit that.
Speed is meaningless in space. It is acceleration. While most of the fight scenes in RotJ show really quite slow speeds, there are other instances where they don't need to be careful and actually try and dogfight.
We've danced this dance before, we do not need to do it again.
I understand what your saying Gunhead. My proof is simply from what I have seen. A viper can rotate 180 deg on its axis and backup on its previous path in seconds. When has anyone seen a tie do that in the movies? All I have seen is that ties can reach great speeds and that they have to travel through an arc if they wish to turn. Very much like modern fighters do.
If that is evidence of anything, its evidence that the producers of Neo-BSG were trying to be a tad more scientifically realistic than the producers of Star Wars; since there is no substantial drag in space, there is no reason why ANY craft need turn in an arc.
Still, this battle is over before it begins. Realistic battle, TIE zips half a light-second past the Viper before the Viper knows what's happening, then zips back for a quick run, then back and forth and back and forth. It's like striking a stationary omnidirectional turret. The TIE would not let the Viper keep it at close range.
That is why this doesn't work. Neo-BSG is trying to be realistic. SW uses magic. For all intents and purposes, the physics defying technology abundant in SW trumps the technology of Neo-BSG which bar FTL and artificial gravity is pretty much able to be done. The debate is as fruitless as a TIE Defender vs. a Xeelee Nightfighter.
Adama, here's some adequate proof of SW acceleration capabilities.
Luke, Han, and Wedge clearing the Death Star Before it blew. It's not clear how far away they were, but it should be multiple Death Star diameters. Clearing the DS diameter in less than five seconds implies at least 1200 g accelerations. Probably a tiny fraction of the real demonstated acceleration.
Lando, Wedge, et. al clearing the 900 km DSII in less than 40 seconds. This implies accelerations of at least 50 g's
The squad of X-Wings travelling hundreds of thousands of kilometers to meet the Death Star in less than five minutes. This implies hundreds of g's acceleration.
Tactical display on Endor shows a fleet of Star Destroyers coming to a halt in less than three seconds. Others have used the DS2 as a reference and computed 3000 g accelerations from that.
Naboo Starship clearing the atmosphere in what was described as "seconds", implying at least tens of g's.
TIE can pull thousands of Gs ref: The Incredible Cross Section books. Ehich are valid evidence whether you;ve seen them or not.
Huh. Shite from a book is worthless in my opinion. The author just puts down a large number and then wows himself into a frenzy, big deal. Do you know what 1000 gs would look like on a movie? Let me tell you what it would look like. You know those red laser pens that people shine on the cinema screen to piss people off? You can see that annoying red dot zipping all over the screen while your watching your movie. Well imagine that red dot zipping all over the screen while your watching ties fighting X-wings. Instead of the crap maneuvering we actually see, we should be seeing the ties pull 1000's of gs zipping around like that red dot . But we don't, because they can't. They are more like modern fighters.
In fact, no. I can recall the the behind the scenes making of the SW movies, and that some of the tie fighter footage was directly modelled on some WW2 black and white fighter footage. Hence the ties move more like a spitfire than a modern day fighter. Since the movie is cannon I can accept this, and I dont give a crap what your bollox 400 page book says.
Tactical display on Endor shows a fleet of Star Destroyers coming to a halt in less than three seconds. Others have used the DS2 as a reference and computed 3000 g accelerations from that.
Not sure if a tactical display can be trusted. We have now idea of the scale of these displays. For example, if the ships are show to be a few cm long, and the distance between the two fleets is hundreds or thousands of kilometers. Then you would need a pretty big display to actually show the real distance between the fleets. Displays are meaningless since they have no scale shown with which we can judge for our selves.
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Adama instead of telling people how their evidence is wrong, start putting up stuff that prove the viper can outperform a TIE.
You saying it is so doesn't cut it. Measurements, estimations based on evidence at hand etc, would do.
Poor evidence beats no evidence.
-Gunhead
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-Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel
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Collect the clues and connect the dots
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TIE can pull thousands of Gs ref: The Incredible Cross Section books. Ehich are valid evidence whether you;ve seen them or not.
Huh. Shite from a book is worthless in my opinion. The author just puts down a large number and then wows himself into a frenzy, big deal. Do you know what 1000 gs would look like on a movie? Let me tell you what it would look like. You know those red laser pens that people shine on the cinema screen to piss people off? You can see that annoying red dot zipping all over the screen while your watching your movie. Well imagine that red dot zipping all over the screen while your watching ties fighting X-wings. Instead of the crap maneuvering we actually see, we should be seeing the ties pull 1000's of gs zipping around like that red dot . But we don't, because they can't. They are more like modern fighters.
In fact, no. I can recall the the behind the scenes making of the SW movies, and that some of the tie fighter footage was directly modelled on some WW2 black and white fighter footage. Hence the ties move more like a spitfire than a modern day fighter. Since the movie is cannon I can accept this, and I dont give a crap what your bollox 400 page book says.
1) Relative velocity. Imagine you are in a car on the Autobahn. You look out the window and you see another car. Relative to you, it is not moving. By the logic you are using, the car therefore must not be moving at all.
2) SW dogfights using WWII tactics != SW dogfights using WWII speeds.
3) ICS books are canon. The movies are more canon, so as long as the ICS don't contradict the movies, it is valid. Since there is nothing in the movies that says TIE fighters can't pull 1000s of Gs, and in fact several scenes in the movie support such a notion, the ICS is considered authoritative.
Nice to see that you don't know shit about canonicity, either
Films are fact. Don't like it? Then go write a book and add some extra zeros to the already wild numbers floating out there.
Imagine how fast one must be moving in order to cross something the size of Jupiter in under five minutes. And after that, decelerate to something equivilant to a stopped position without using the main aft engines.
X-Wings have very good acceleration, which Tie-Fighters effectively duplicate.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
Adama wrote:
Not sure if a tactical display can be trusted. We have now idea of the scale of these displays.
Did you not read the part about the 900 km DS2 being used for reference?
For example, if the ships are show to be a few cm long, and the distance between the two fleets is hundreds or thousands of kilometers.
Then you would need a pretty big display to actually show the real distance between the fleets.
Wich is why on real displays, vehicles are blown up for ease of visibility. Landmarks (like the DS2) are not magnified.
Vipers need launch tubes to leave their carrier (Battlestar). Ties do not. Vader and his pilots departed from the Tie hangars located on the Equatorial Trench and reached the exhaust port trench in the upper hemisphere in a matter of seconds. Vader got his pilots to the ships, and they were hitting Gold Flight in less than a minute! This doesn't even take into account the pilots entering their ships, checking systems, and taking off!
This indicates good acceleration. In fact, great accleration. Fuck, man. They had to go screaming across the DS1 to reach the battlescene, which they arrived at in a matter of seconds.
You've already earned this thread a place in HoS, Adama. I hope you'll improve, or else you may become the next Assassin X.
- Ra
