Family Names: Inherently Sexist?

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

User avatar
Shinova
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10193
Joined: 2002-10-03 08:53pm
Location: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Post by Shinova »

My beef with the system is that the belief that, "OMG there's no son! The family's OVER!!!11!1!!1!!1"

It's still going. The essence of what the family is, the genetics, is still passed on through the daughters as well as the sons. So there's that often huge pressure on guys to, "OMG j00 better start getting married now!!!111!1!!!1" just so the family name could be carried on.


Geez, it's just a name, for crying out loud. :roll:


This is why I kinda dislike family names. It's one-sided thinking, and in modern days it's easier to keep records of family lines of descent, so you almost don't need those family names anymore, at least not in sufficiently developed countries.
What's her bust size!?

It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!!!!!!!!!
User avatar
Darth Servo
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8805
Joined: 2002-10-10 06:12pm
Location: Satellite of Love

Post by Darth Servo »

Shinova wrote:My beef with the system is that the belief that, "OMG there's no son! The family's OVER!!!11!1!!1!!1"
One friend of mine was so relieved that they had finally had a son to carry on the family name. The thing is, the family name was "Smith"
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com

"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28822
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Post by Broomstick »

Since my family, at least on my father's side, didn't even have a surname until they immigrated to the US in 1900, the whole "carry on the name" thing has been a bit of a puzzle to me. I mean, yes, I hyphenated my name when I married, but that's because the name had become meaningful to me after living with it for 25 years, and also because I was working freelance at the time and relying on word of mouth and reputation for work - under such circumstances changing your name is like wiping out your work history. But the whole "family line" thing... well, it just didn't exist in half my heritage.

When I tell people this I get shocked looks - my GOD you didn't have a surname???? Well, no - and it wasn't that uncommon at the time, and there are still folks to whom such circumstances apply today (like the Icelanders). No big deal, really. Maybe if I looked exotic folks would be more accepting. In some ways, they seem more disturbed that this applies to a "white bread" looking American than at the shocking lack of surname.

I'm old enough to remember when the name hyphenation and keeping of maiden names became more common and accepted - at the time it was noted that it seemed more acceptable for, say, hispanic women to hyphenate than white women. Or for Chinese women to keep their maiden name than for white women to do so. The "exotics" (some of whose families had been in the US far longer than mine) were "excused" for having odd or foreign customs, the white women were expect to toe the line on convention, however.

I will also state that there has been a noticable rise in acceptance of the changing customs in the last 20 years or so in the US. Even those who really don't like the custom seem more accepting that a woman might have career reasons for keeping her birth name. They may make a snarky comment about you keeping the name for money, but apparently will tolerate "greed" as an excuse. Or whatever it is that goes through their head. Admittedly, that's based on my own observations and thus may be biased, but I have lived as a woman in 5 different states (Missiouri, Michigan, West Virginia, Illinois, and Indiana) and I travel frequently both in heavily urban areas and in rural locations so I feel I've encountered a diverse variety of people over the years.
User avatar
Lord Zentei
Space Elf Psyker
Posts: 8742
Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.

Post by Lord Zentei »

Lord Zentei wrote:Icelandic system:

The father's (occationally and/or mother's) last name with "-son" or "-dóttir" added to the end. My father's name is Jón, so I'm Jónsson. I could also claim to be Inguson.

The wife never takes the husband's last name nor does the husband ever take the wife's last name: it wouldn't make sense, since it really means "son of <fill in blank>" or "daughter of <fill in blank>". Technically it isn't really a name per se.

Apparently, this system was more widespread in Scandinavia a century or two ago. Were the only ones who keep to the old ways. 8)
My kingdom for an Edit button. :roll:

The Father's (and/or mother's) FIRST name.

Gah. How many times have I made such simple gaffes this week? I must start using the Preview button more.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 23354
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Post by LadyTevar »

Lord Zentei wrote: Apparently, this system was more widespread in Scandinavia a century or two ago. Were the only ones who keep to the old ways. 8)
The patrynomic was one of the lingering customs of the Vikings, and only in the 1800s did Scandinavian families begin to drop them. Iceland started as a Viking colony and even in the early 1900s was fairly isolated, so the custom continues. I don't see it changing anytime soon, it's Tradition and something that makes Icelanders unique in the world today.

Some SCA people I know have done a lot of research on Viking naming customs... iirc Jònsson would be Jòn's second son, because of the double s. I could be mis-remembering, however
Image
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Terr Fangbite
Padawan Learner
Posts: 363
Joined: 2004-07-08 12:21am

Post by Terr Fangbite »

Historically with aristocrats, the most important family kept the family name. Thus if the woman's family was more powerful than the man's, the woman's family name would be used.

Anyway I think the current system works just fine. I know people who hyphenate, who take the mans or takes the woman's name. I don't know anyone who kept their own names though. Its all about choice really. If the name sounds great hyphenated, do it. If not, sit down and spend a dinner discussing it. You'd expect that people can be half-matured when they decide marriage is for them.
Beware Windows. Linux Comes.
http://ammtb.keenspace.com
User avatar
Kuroneko
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2469
Joined: 2003-03-13 03:10am
Location: Fréchet space
Contact:

Post by Kuroneko »

Perinquus wrote:I wonder how often Russians really use the habit of addressing someone by both their first name and patronymic (which it seems Russians are always doing when they appear in novels).
"So tell me Yevgeny Mikhailovich..."
"Arkady Grigorovich, my old friend..."
"I tell you Sergei Ivanovich..."
etc. etc.
Do they really do this, or is it just a literary affectation?
Absolutely. Russian culture has a fairly strict notion of formality and familiarity; although not nearly as strict, say, Japanese, it is still much more so that that of the Americans. It's really a progression of formality. Let's take the name "Nataliya Ivanovna Gagarina" as an example:
(Most formal) "Gospozha [Madam] Gagarina"
(Official capacity) "Tovarisch [Comrade] Gagarina"
(Strictly subordinate position, e.g., professor to student) "Gagarina"
(Friendly acquaintance, co-worker, or if friendly towards subordinate) "Nataliya Ivanovna"
(Friend) "Nataliya" or "Natasha"
(Friend, in casual context) "Ivanovna"
User avatar
Lord Zentei
Space Elf Psyker
Posts: 8742
Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.

Post by Lord Zentei »

LadyTevar wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote: Apparently, this system was more widespread in Scandinavia a century or two ago. Were the only ones who keep to the old ways. 8)
The patrynomic was one of the lingering customs of the Vikings, and only in the 1800s did Scandinavian families begin to drop them. Iceland started as a Viking colony and even in the early 1900s was fairly isolated, so the custom continues. I don't see it changing anytime soon, it's Tradition and something that makes Icelanders unique in the world today.

Some SCA people I know have done a lot of research on Viking naming customs... iirc Jònsson would be Jòn's second son, because of the double s. I could be mis-remembering, however
You are. The first 's' is attached to the name Jón as in "Jón's" but w/o the apostrophe.

Thus, it is Jóns son => Jónsson.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 23354
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Post by LadyTevar »

Lord Zentei wrote:
LadyTevar wrote: Some SCA people I know have done a lot of research on Viking naming customs... iirc Jònsson would be Jòn's second son, because of the double s. I could be mis-remembering, however
You are. The first 's' is attached to the name Jón as in "Jón's" but w/o the apostrophe.
Thus, it is Jóns son => Jónsson.
Yeah... I got straightened out this weekend, talking to a couple of Vikings at the event :lol:
Image
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Lord Zentei
Space Elf Psyker
Posts: 8742
Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.

Post by Lord Zentei »

LadyTevar wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:
LadyTevar wrote: Some SCA people I know have done a lot of research on Viking naming customs... iirc Jònsson would be Jòn's second son, because of the double s. I could be mis-remembering, however
You are. The first 's' is attached to the name Jón as in "Jón's" but w/o the apostrophe.
Thus, it is Jóns son => Jónsson.
Yeah... I got straightened out this weekend, talking to a couple of Vikings at the event :lol:
It would be pretty akward after a half dozen sons oe so:

My name is Egill Jónsssssson. :P
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
Post Reply