Zaarin vs Piett

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-04-25 02:31pm

Zaarin (TIE fighter) has been accused for treason and Piett is ordered to take him out.

Piett has Death Squadron under his command
Zaarin gets whatever forces he has in TIE fighter and X-Wing:Alliance as (those funky TIE prototypes included)

Who wins...

1) in a straight up fight?
2) in a long term campain?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-04-25 02:41pm

This debate would be more enlightening if anyone could post exactly what kinda Capital Ships Zaarin had. I've never played TIE fighter because the game came out way before i got into PC gaming.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-04-25 03:34pm

Lord Pounder wrote:This debate would be more enlightening if anyone could post exactly what kinda Capital Ships Zaarin had. I've never played TIE fighter because the game came out way before i got into PC gaming.

No one really knows. There were claims that Zaarin took half the Imperial fleet with him, but that seems utterly incredible. It's more likely that Zaarin had a significant fraction of a sector group (including elements of the one charged with guarding Imperial Center).

Zaarin was an R&D guru. He probably wasn't as good a commander as Piett, but he also has a lot more ships. I give it to Zaarin. It took Thrawn a large fleet to kill the guy, and Piett is not Thrawn.

Dangermouse · Post by **Dangermouse** » 2005-04-25 03:53pm

Based on the Tie Fighter requirement in the OP:

This is rough and is based on searching through this walkthrough here but will get us started (Does someone have the strategy guides?):

Zaarin's Forces from Tie Fighter and Defender:

1 ISD Glory + 3 ISD (Names?) +2ISD (from Battle 11:2: Thunderer and Imperator)
1 VSD Zeplin
4 Interdictors (Harpax,Grappler,Maelstorm,Bomb)
2 Escort Carriers (Hininburg, Jitte)
10 Modified Frigates (Shamus,Raptor,Shadow,Strident,Kuma 1-3, Borus, + 2 Unknown)
6 Carracks (Pism, Yaai, Pata 1-3, Unknown)
10 Modified Corvette Groups (Maybe 30? total) ???? Not sure about this one
2 Frigates (Thinin, Lendova)
5 Strike Cruisers (Ebola, Serpent, Z-Kops,Ayenzii, Intombe)
Unknown number of TIE Defenders / TIE Advanced
Research Platform / TD Factory / TA Factory etc.
1 Defense Platform From Master of Ossus

From this thread,

it appears the Death Squadron has 1 SSD and between 5-7 ISD. Does anyone know about support craft?

So we are looking at 7 capital ships and maybe 42 squadrons of fighters/bombers with a super capital ship and (12 right? squadrons of fighters?) versus 2 capital ships, 14 light captial ships, 30-40 support craft / light capital ships, and 3 Interdictors.

If we assume that the Death Squadron has a similiar support structure to Zaarin (in terms of light cap ships / interdictors / anti fighter ships / etc), Piett takes the straight up fight easy. If its just the seven-eight star destroyers of the Death Squadron, I think the fight might be closer depending on the number of independent fighter /bomber squadrons Zaarin can field. I really need to do more reading on the differences between the Star Destroyers and the lighter craft but I still suspect the Death Squadron would come out on top.

In terms of a campaign, the fighter factories / research platforms certainly help Zaarin.

Edit: If we find more ships for Zaarin or Piett, I have no problem editing the above forces.
Edit: Added 3 more ISD / Platform Per Master of Ossus
Edit: Found another Interdictor, two more frigates, a strike cruiser, and maybe 2 more ISDs. I am not sure if they are the same as Master of Ossus mentioned.
Edit: Our friend Dr. Saxton's site has two of the names for the unknown ISDs.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-04-25 04:15pm

Zaarin needed to have AT LEAST three ISD's for that mission where he ambushes Commander Karpov's ship (since three ISD's were present at that mission, not including Zaarin's own). He also had an assortment of smaller ships at that mission and a defense platform.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-04-25 04:15pm

Dangermouse wrote: Edit: If we find more ships for Zaarin or Piett, I have no problem editing the above forces.

nice post

Well, there is also a short campain against him in X-wing alliance, but that was mainly against his TIE experimentals (iirc)

Dangermouse · Post by **Dangermouse** » 2005-04-25 04:15pm

Wautd, are we allowed to expand the OP to include other sources for Zaarin? Basing this on a game in which your typical Zaarin strike force is a frigate, a couple of groups of corvettes, and elements of Tie Defenders / Tie Interceptors is somewhat limiting.

Looks like Xwing Alliance only adds some more fighters, escort transports, and a research platform. Nothing major.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-04-25 04:40pm

Dangermouse wrote: Looks like Xwing Alliance only adds some more fighters, escort transports, and a research platform. Nothing major.

Yeah tought so too. Basicly anything he has and iirc XW:A added mostly fighters fighters

Dangermouse · Post by **Dangermouse** » 2005-04-25 05:04pm

Well, found another Interdictor, a couple more frigates, a strike cruiser and two more ISDs from a recon mission in Battle 11:2. I am not sure if the two ISDs are the ones Master of Ossus is referring to or if one of them is the Glory, but if they are not, this means Zaarin's game fleet includes upwards of six ISDs. A respectable fleet with the assorted support craft and enough to take on the regular ISDs of the Death squadron. I am not yet convinced this could also defeat the SSD Executor as well.

Edit: From Saxton's site here, the two ISDs are Imperator and Thunderer. Interesting, perhaps the first ISD herself.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2005-04-25 05:29pm

In X-Wing Alliance

1 station
1 research ship.

Tie Experiemntals (remote controlled from Assault transports)

X1- One solar Panel two balls. Turbolaser empalcement in one pilot i n the other.
X2- TIE/IN with tw oguns added to the solar panels
X3- Interceptor with missles laucnhers clamped to the solar panels
X4 TIE/In with a whack off booster on the back.
X5- Suide bomber craft.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2005-04-25 07:12pm

Crazedwraith wrote: X4 TIE/In with a whack off booster on the back.
X5- Suide bomber craft.

X4 was the kamikaze ship, X5 was the booster.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2005-04-25 09:26pm

XWA is irrelevant in this case, since the Rebels blew up all his droid Tie facilities anyway.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2005-04-26 05:17am

YT300000 wrote:XWA is irrelevant in this case, since the Rebels blew up all his droid Tie facilities anyway.

As I recall he said that much of it was salvagable.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-04-26 08:12am

So in a straight up fight, Zaarin is simply outgunned by Death Squadron.

However, on a long term campain, I'm leaning towards Zaarin. Interdictor cruisers, warp capable fighters,... allow him to pick the fights he can win, raid supply convoys or whatever.

Grand Admiral Mango · Post by **Grand Admiral Mango** » 2005-04-26 11:10am

I think i'd go for Admiral Piett. I wonder why?

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-04-26 12:22pm

I'm pretty sure Piett should be able pull up the forces present at Endor if he needed it.

Dangermouse · Post by **Dangermouse** » 2005-04-26 01:27pm

wautd wrote:So in a straight up fight, Zaarin is simply outgunned by Death Squadron.

However, on a long term campain, I'm leaning towards Zaarin. Interdictor cruisers, warp capable fighters,... allow him to pick the fights he can win, raid supply convoys or whatever.

Its starting to look that way. After scanning through this site here
(any thoughts on the validity of the site?), I am tempted to revise Zaarin's forces to those below. I am having trouble finding the names of the three other ISDs in Zaarin's fleet, and so will remove them for now:

Zaarin's Forces from Tie Fighter and Defender:

3 ISD (Glory, Thunderer, and Imperator)
1 VSD Zeplin
4 Interdictors (Harpax,Grappler,Maelstorm,Bomb)
2 Escort Carriers (Hininburg, Jitte)
10 Modified Frigates (Shamus,Raptor,Shadow,Strident,Kuma 1-3, Borus, + 2 Unknown)
6 Carracks (Pism, Yaai, Pata 1-3, Unknown)
10 Modified Corvette Groups (Maybe 30? total) ???? Not sure about this one
2 Frigates (Thinin, Lendova)
4 Strike Cruisers (Serpent, Z-Kops,Ayenzii, Intombe)
Unknown number of TIE Defenders / TIE Advanced
Unknown number of Assault Transports
Research Platform / TD Factory / TA Factory etc.
1 Defense Platform

So, lets say you are Zaarin. How would you use these assets to defeat the Death Squadron (if possible)?

To make things more interesting, lets assume that the movie canon Death Squadron also includes support craft, frigates and interdictors using similiar proportions to Zaarin's fleet:
4:1 Frigate: ISD ratio
2:1 Carrack ratio (Tempted to up this though)
10:1 Corvette: ISD ratio
4:3 Strike Cruiser
4:3 Interdictor

Extrapolating for the Death Squadron (based on 1 +7ISD), we get 32 frigates, 16 Carracks, 80 Corvettes, 9 Strike Cruisers, 9 Interdictors. I am not entirely happy with this method as the Death Squadron is a tactical strike force whereas Zaarin seems to be pulling from a pool of ships, and so the default assumption is probably incorrect. Suggestions are highly welcome.

As Wautd points out, Zaarin is heavily outgunned. I hate saying this, but if I were Zaarin, I would split my fleet into at least two forces, each containing an interdictor. I would then send the taskforces to raid two distant areas so that one theater could not be quickly reinforced from the other. Have the third force function more as a decoy /raid force.

This forces Piett into a decision: Chase one task force or split his task force into at least two elements. I think Zaarin gains by having Piett split as the Executor (in my mind, the biggest unknown here), can only go to one task force. Piett could also do nothing and let Zaarin come to him, but that seems to be the quickest way to earn an audience with Vader.

If Zaarin could get Piett to commit one of his groups to perhaps a decoy / small raid, perhaps he could consolidate his two main fleets and attempt to ambush the Executorless task force. Granted, Zaarin is still outnumbered / outgunned, but it seems to be his best chance. Perhaps Zaarin might have enough independent hyperdrive fighter squadrons to make up the difference.

Certainly, all this would be easier for Zaarin if we restricted the Death Squadron to what is seen / hinted at in ESB and threw out the support craft.

Note: Removed Strike Cruiser Ebola as that belongs to Thrawn.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2005-04-29 06:57pm

Sharp-kun wrote:
YT300000 wrote:XWA is irrelevant in this case, since the Rebels blew up all his droid Tie facilities anyway.
As I recall he said that much of it was salvagable.

Though that raises the question why we don't see them in action ever again.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-04-29 07:03pm

Just as a note Death Squadron had twenty captains...so it is reasonable to say that it had 20 ISDs, since the novel indicates that when Vader is talking with them in the Holoconference he was speaking to only captains of the Star Destroyers.

So Zaarin really is in deeper shit then before in that light, for a straight up fight.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2005-04-29 07:13pm

I'm a bit confused. What did Zaarin hope to accomplish with such a small force? It's been quite some years since I played Tie Fighter. And if a commander was a significant threat to the Emperor, couldn't the Emperor force choke the guy over some distance?

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-04-29 07:50pm

Trytostaydead wrote:I'm a bit confused. What did Zaarin hope to accomplish with such a small force? It's been quite some years since I played Tie Fighter. And if a commander was a significant threat to the Emperor, couldn't the Emperor force choke the guy over some distance?

Well he did manage to capture the Emporer. That has to be worth something.

Dangermouse · Post by **Dangermouse** » 2005-04-30 12:26am

Trytostaydead wrote:I'm a bit confused. What did Zaarin hope to accomplish with such a small force? It's been quite some years since I played Tie Fighter. And if a commander was a significant threat to the Emperor, couldn't the Emperor force choke the guy over some distance?

Personally, I think the composition of Zaarin's force is partially misleading as fight sims like Tie Fighter have a tendency to scale down the quantity of enemy capital ships and fighters to make the game playable and winable. Certainly most ISD captiains would not launch fighters in elements of three and four.

Zaarin wanted the coup. He had the forces for a coup only, and not a strategic war. His best and last chance was the attempted kidnapping of the Emperor (how he imagined controlling a Dark Lord of the Sith is an entirely different matter). His force (essentially composed of a few heavy capital ships and light strike craft with hyperdrive equipped fighters) seem suited for an interdiction and ambush of the Emperor's ship.

I can't imagine that Zaarin's forces would have enough troops to assault Coruscant directly or kidnap the Emperor on his throne. A ship interdiction seems to be his best chance.

After that failure, it is hard to imagine what he could hope to accomplish with his force considering that ISD estimates alone have been speculated by others to be as high as 25k. For all purposes, Zaarin's sun seems to have set with the failure of the kidnap mission considering his in-game resources.

Dangermouse · Post by **Dangermouse** » 2005-04-30 12:37am

Ghost Rider wrote:Just as a note Death Squadron had twenty captains...so it is reasonable to say that it had 20 ISDs, since the novel indicates that when Vader is talking with them in the Holoconference he was speaking to only captains of the Star Destroyers.

So Zaarin really is in deeper shit then before in that light, for a straight up fight.

Wow. Time to invoke the Bill Paxton law. Its basically game over then.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-04-30 01:39am

Zarrin hoped to fight a guerilla war against the Empire after he failed to capture the Emperor. He was going to try and remain hidden while his forces fought against important imperial industrial and R&D assets in order to stunt the Empires advanced technologies. This would give Zarrin an edge in most battles aimed at him. Fighting much like the Rebels, Zarrin could strike in force when he wanted too while the Empire had to spread its forces thin. The problem for Zarrin was that he was doing too good a job initialy and Admiral Thrawn was directed to deal with him forthright.